Civil Service Pay Analysis

monkeytronics

ixoy wrote: »

Never happened with anyone I know. Any leave over Christmas, aside from the public holidays, had to be taken out of your annual leave. I know of no exceptions (and yes, none of my friends work in retail).


By virtue of the fact that each year pay is adjusted with inflation and jobs are far safer in a difficult economic climate than a private one. Not saying I agree with that point but I imagine that's what's being said.


That's only a small portion of the private sector, whereas alll the public sector have had massive increses over those 4 years from the reports. I do agree though that some of the private sector jobs mentioned above were charging ridiculous prices and getting unsupportable increases - no need to replicate it in the public sector though.


While I see your point, I do find it difficult for civil servants to say they're on a "pay freeze" when their pay will often be increased in the next year as they move up the pay scale ladder. This is not a pay freeze as I understand it - currently many private sector places may only increase in line with inflation and nothing to do with years of service. Many are on a pay freeze that, despite working a few years, won't get anything extra at all despite being more experienced.

A pay cut across those grades would be preferable I guess, although it could result in being rising to the next level only to be on the same wage as before. It's more equitable though. We can't be fully fair in these times - we have to find the best solution possible and people will not like it.. why would they.

Can anyone tell me about overtime rates? I've heard of civil servants getting ridiculously generous overtime rates for working weekends - how do these work?

Also would it not be better to reform something like PMDS? Often in the private sector you would have your work measured against others, rather than independently. Then you'd use a form of bell curve model so that 10% or so would have to fit in "must improve", 20% "could do better", etc. You'd then award pay increases to those who met targets and nothing for those who don't. I understand PMDS is designed for this but since so very very few don't get their pay increases, it's clear that it's not strict enough and doesn't take into account slackers - by forcing some form of bell curve model, could this help weed out those who are lazy?

I have worked in a private sector company (and know of 4 others) that give staff time off over Christmas that is not counted as annual leave. The 5 companies in question do not open over the Christmas period. There are always exceptions but I agree with you the vast majority of companies do not give staff "free" leave over Christmas.

Just to ensure all facts are known. outside of the normal bank/public holidays, civil service staff are granted two priviledge days per annum - 1 on the day after stephen's day and one around Easter time.

Most people hate PMDS, I personally think it is a good system in principal, however unfortunately, I do not think it is implemented effectively in a lot of cases. Line managers are responsible for their staff and their PMDS assessments each year. Some (a lot) of line managers either do not have the skill or the balls to properly assess an individual on their performance. I think a lot would be achieve if newly appointed managers where provided with training. To date, newly appointed managers are not trained in general management skills on appointment, in fact they are not trained at all. This should be addressed.

Without going into a debate on whether its the right thing to do etc... stopping people's increments will achieve next to nothing in terms of public sector finances. most increments range between 700 - 1,100 on average. some would be as low as 100 - 200 and some as high as 2,000 - 3,000 (very senior, high ranking staff). As I've said before, a high proporpation of people have either reached the top of their pay scale or are a few yrs away from theit next increment (long service increments).

nhughes100

If you take an average increment of a grand for each of the 390,000 public sector workers it adds up to a huge amount of money, even take 500 euro as the increment and it's still huge. Every billion helps. PMDS was a joke, again consultants hired to do something highly qualified and highly paid management could't implement on their own.

The_Conductor

nhughes100 wrote: »

If you take an average increment of a grand for each of the 390,000 public sector workers it adds up to a huge amount of money, even take 500 euro as the increment and it's still huge. Every billion helps. PMDS was a joke, again consultants hired to do something highly qualified and highly paid management could't implement on their own.

It is huge. You should factor however that half of it will go immediately back to the exchequer as income taxes and other payroll deductions- while the other half will have other multiplier effects in the economy as a whole. Its a big headline figure for expenditure- but its supporting massive revenue income at the same time......

professore

Ticktactoe wrote: »

Sounds like you should get a job there. You make it out to be a wonderful job... why dont you get a job in the service?

Because there is so much competition for these jobs it's well nigh impossible.

ixoy

monkeytronics wrote: »

Just to ensure all facts are known. outside of the normal bank/public holidays, civil service staff are granted two priviledge days per annum - 1 on the day after stephen's day and one around Easter time.

Just curious - is one of these Good Friday? It's not part of our holidays but we get it granted as a priviledge day as well as one round Christmas.

Most people hate PMDS, I personally think it is a good system in principal, however unfortunately, I do not think it is implemented effectively in a lot of cases.

Well true a lot of the flaws could be down to implementation. I heard that something like .07% of staff in one department got the lowest ranking - do you believe that it's true, or that management are afraid to take a tougher line with the markings or that targets are too easy? From my own experience with the civil service (and I do work with them, so it's not pure conjecture), I've found far more than .07% ineffective.

Without going into a debate on whether its the right thing to do etc...stopping people's increments will achieve next to nothing in terms of public sector finances. most increments range between 700 - 1,100 on average. some would be as low as 100 - 200 and some as high as 2,000 - 3,000 (very senior, high ranking staff). As I've said before, a high proporpation of people have either reached the top of their pay scale or are a few yrs away from theit next increment (long service increments).

Are increments not always on a yearly basis? You're quite probably right about huge savings being made, but every little can help.

Do you also think that there can be a bit of a false perception if people hear of a "pay freeze" in the public sector but then hear how many COs, EOs, etc still got a pay rise due to the laddering process in the pay scale? I know it's a different concept but, at the end of the day for those in the private sector who will receive 0% no matter experience gained, this would still be seen as a rise. So bringing in the ethics angle, for what it's worth, do you not see how it could be construed?

Also, I'm still curious about the overtime rates you can get at weekends - anyone have figures? I imagine it's generally unavailalbe unless required, but when it is how does it work? I heard some shocking figures for a few hours weekend overtime from a HEO and I'd like to see how it works.

nhughes100

Overtime would vary a lot depending on what job your doing, some people don't get it at all, some can have the choice of taking the time in lieu or flexi-time, typically it is time and a half during the week(after 5.30pm) and up to 1pm on Saturday, double time there after. I'd imagine for unsocial hours and shifts like the Gardai & Health it would vary again.

Kimbot

stevoman wrote: »

Hi,

Im a clerical officer in the civil service. here's the increment list. Its officiial and up to date and can be obtained anywhere. it goes as follows. 1-14 is the years of service and the pay for each year in the service. so for example year 1 - annual gross is €24397 and weekly gross is €467.55

1 0 24397 467.55
2 0 25532 489.3
3 0 26672 511.16
4 0 27811 532.98
5 0 28949 554.8
6 0 30089 576.64
7 0 31227 598.45
8 0 32365 620.26
9 0 33505 642.11
10 0 34643 663.91
11 0 35774 685.58
12 0 37536 719.36
13 0 38922 745.92
14 0 39558 758.1

I am on point 7 of the scale. thats a gross of €598 and and honest €470 in my hand every week. not bad but hardly anything to brag about.

I dont think a 10-20% pay cut would be very fair on lower paid civil servants. myself, and most other civil servants have mortgages and children to worry about aswell.

What kind of gets to me is the fact that i have been listening to friends in the private sector for the last few years brag about how much more they make than me and how my wages are not good. But on the other hand i took it in stride as i chose this career for stability in my job and good promotional prospects, so i looked to the future so to speak. I havnt heard a peep of complaint from the private sector until recently that times are bad, and lots of people now are expecting public servants to take the pay cuts. i also agree that some public servants are making very large sums of money, but is it fair to tackle all public servants includiing lower paid ones across the board? personally i dont think so.

Very good post man, I am in the service 8 odd years now, 2 promotions under my belt and only on about the €35,000 a year mark. I am working in I.T. with tonnes of certification under my belt in all areas of I.T. that I paid for myself.

Anyone I know walked into I.T. jobs with no experience starting out at loest I was told €40,000 a year ranging to €50,000 a year with yearly pay rises. I know some of them up on €70,000 a year for doing feck all work yet I am half their wage working my a$$ off and I am the one who should take a pay drop or even a pay freeze.

ixoy wrote: »

Also, I'm still curious about the overtime rates you can get at weekends - anyone have figures? I imagine it's generally unavailalbe unless required, but when it is how does it work? I heard some shocking figures for a few hours weekend overtime from a HEO and I'd like to see how it works.

For the first 4 hours you get 1.25 hours pay, from 4-8 hours you get 1.50 hours pay and from 8 on you get double pay.

Not alot of people in the service get overtime anymore from my knowledge and alot of depts scrapped OT last year when money needed to be saved.

monkeytronics

ixoy wrote: »

Just curious - is one of these Good Friday? It's not part of our holidays but we get it granted as a priviledge day as well as one round Christmas.


Well true a lot of the flaws could be down to implementation. I heard that something like .07% of staff in one department got the lowest ranking - do you believe that it's true, or that management are afraid to take a tougher line with the markings or that targets are too easy? From my own experience with the civil service (and I do work with them, so it's not pure conjecture), I've found far more than .07% ineffective.


Are increments not always on a yearly basis? You're quite probably right about huge savings being made, but every little can help.

Do you also think that there can be a bit of a false perception if people hear of a "pay freeze" in the public sector but then hear how many COs, EOs, etc still got a pay rise due to the laddering process in the pay scale? I know it's a different concept but, at the end of the day for those in the private sector who will receive 0% no matter experience gained, this would still be seen as a rise. So bringing in the ethics angle, for what it's worth, do you not see how it could be construed?

Also, I'm still curious about the overtime rates you can get at weekends - anyone have figures? I imagine it's generally unavailalbe unless required, but when it is how does it work? I heard some shocking figures for a few hours weekend overtime from a HEO and I'd like to see how it works.

No Good Friday is a day off as is Easter Monday plus there is the priviledge day to take either before easter or just after. And a fixed priviledge day on Stephens Day.

TBH I wouldn't have figures for the % of staff that are graded at a particular PMDS rating. But .07% getting the lowest ranking would not be a suprise for me. For two reasons.

1) the lowest performance grade on PMDS is:
"Role-holder has met few of the role requirements and performance falls clearly short of the required standard."- Unacceptable"

I can't speak for the entire civil service but it would really be the worst employees that would fall into this category. And those that fall into these category would need to be micro managed and without imporvement would have to be shown the door in my opinion. I have only come across one person that would have fitted this grade in my time in the CS. So 0.07% might (and should) be about right.

2. Definitely (and partic for the slighlty better performance ratings) I think line managers are afraid to provide a proper assessment of the staff member and don;t like to deal with the confrontation they would follow giving staff a low rating.


Well TBH, As I said I feel that the freeze on increments is not really fair from an internal point of view because not everyone will be effected as per my previous post. But while I have 6 or 7 increments left in my pay scale I have no problem if my increment is frozen this year and next if needs be. I think a good proportion of my colleagues would share the same sentiment.

Usually the firt 6 or so increments are on a yearly basis but when u reach the 6th you have to do 3 yrs service to get to the 7th and the same for going onto the 8th. Its slighlty different for each grade but I think most grade and particualrly the admin grades there is a long service increment on each.

Overtime is time and a half weekdays. Time and half for first 4 hours on sat and double time for the remaining. Double on Sunday (i think). Overtime is the same for every grade up to HEO, AP and above do not get paid overtime.

Hope that helps

ixoy

jonny24ie wrote: »

Anyone I know walked into I.T. jobs with no experience starting out at loest I was told €40,000 a year ranging to €50,000 a year with yearly pay rises. I know some of them up on €70,000 a year for doing feck all work yet I am half their wage working my a$$ off and I am the one who should take a pay drop or even a pay freeze.

I'm guessing this was during the .com boom? Nobody gets that anymore in IT straight out. Never heard of it and I'd know people in multiple years from multiple IT courses. It's more in the 24k-30k range as a number of posts in other forums will attest to. Regardless, I'll agree your wage is by no means high for 8 years but I'm sure there are other benefits - from my experience with civil service systems, I find there's often about 2 or 3 excellent workers often picking up the slack for an equal number of poor workers, yet all are getting paid the same. I can't believe some of the staff I deal with are still SOs (not because

For the first 4 hours you get 1.25 hours pay, from 4-8 hours you get 1.50 hours pay and from 8 on you get double pay.

Thanks for that - not sure how the HEO I talked to managed his big lump sum then! FWIW, I don't get any overtime pay rate (just at standard pay) but your overtime pay is far from exhorbant. I think the real overtime pay issue is with prison officers, guards, etc and not reall there so much in the civil service more the public service.

On a completely unrelated note, it's nice to see a public service topic that's actually stayed civil (pun intended)!

BroomBurner

professore wrote: »

Because there is so much competition for these jobs it's well nigh impossible.

I agree with this, there are literally thousands applying whenever there is an open competition. These exams are relatively new but I think they are a great step in ensuring that high calibur officers are recruited. As the older members, who were recruited before they were required to pass the exams, leave (through retirement, etc.) the exam system will become more and more obvious.

The department where I work has quite a high number of young people at EO stage, who have all managed to get through the exams. There is a massive difference between their performance and those who are more "ingrained". The problem then is how to keep this performance up over the years. Increments are one way. The PMDS system definitely needs to be strengthened to make increments more worthwhile and keep people motivated.

Ticktactoe

BroomBurner wrote: »

I agree with this, there are literally thousands applying whenever there is an open competition. These exams are relatively new but I think they are a great step in ensuring that high calibur officers are recruited. As the older members, who were recruited before they were required to pass the exams, leave (through retirement, etc.) the exam system will become more and more obvious.

The department where I work has quite a high number of young people at EO stage, who have all managed to get through the exams. There is a massive difference between their performance and those who are more "ingrained". The problem then is how to keep this performance up over the years. Increments are one way. The PMDS system definitely needs to be strengthened to make increments more worthwhile and keep people motivated.

It is very hard to get into the service and everyone in there sat the exams, did the interviews passed and so deserve to be there. I say ye well deserve the wages yer on! Im not going to begrudge ye just because there is a recession and the government are struggling with the finances.

colsmiff

The level of competition for public jobs in Ireland must give some indication of the calibre of the employees, i.e. they are the top, the cream. Thus they should be paid accordingly. That, afterall, is the arguement that companies give for paying their executives and directors so much compared to the workers.

What people also seem to forget is that the machinery of State needs to continue even in the grimmest of circumstances, otherwise the country would descend into anarchy. If everything was based upon private service providers then we really would be up a creek without a paddle since they would all expect to turn a profit whilst providing the same if not lower levels of service.
Imagine what we would be saying if a private payroll company was employed to administer the unemployment benefit system or social welfare payments?

colsmiff

The level of competition for public jobs in Ireland must give some indication of the calibre of the employees, i.e. they are the top, the cream. Thus they should be paid accordingly. That, afterall, is the arguement that companies give for paying their executives and directors so much compared to the workers.

What people also seem to forget is that the machinery of State needs to continue even in the grimmest of circumstances, otherwise the country would descend into anarchy. If everything was based upon private service providers then we really would be up a creek without a paddle since they would all expect to turn a profit whilst providing the same if not lower levels of service.
Imagine what we would be saying if a private payroll company was employed to administer the unemployment benefit system or social welfare payments?

ixoy

colsmiff wrote: »

The level of competition for public jobs in Ireland must give some indication of the calibre of the employees, i.e. they are the top, the cream. Thus they should be paid accordingly. That, afterall, is the arguement that companies give for paying their executives and directors so much compared to the workers.

No it gives an idea of the calibre of recent applicants, not the many who have been in there for decades. Any of those who I'm aware of who've joined the CS recently are generally very good and smart workers, but that certainly doesn't apply to all those who preceded them.

I think the current exams are a great step to building a better future for the CS but that ignores the fact that they may recruit the best and not avail of their talents (or have a job that really needs doing) or that the service isn't riddled with others who are just holding on.

The pay-scale approach is grand in theory, but it also doesn't reward the best nor punish the worst. In an ideal world, where everyone is equally motivated, this would be fine but I think one of the flaws in the PMDS and the pay awards is that it provides less motivation for people to push themselves and succeed. Whether some of this pay scale should be geared towards a more meritocratic approach is something worth considering, although I imagine the unions would be steadfast against it.

What people also seem to forget is that the machinery of State needs to continue even in the grimmest of circumstances, otherwise the country would descend into anarchy.

Of course, nobody is arguing for the dismantling of the civil service (I certainly hope not). What we need to do is to see how we can make it more efficient, especially in the lean times we're facing.

Imagine what we would be saying if a private payroll company was employed to administer the unemployment benefit system or social welfare payments?

It'd be an interesting one. I imagine it could work if the private company was to adhere to strict guidelines and targets as part of the tender, a tender that could be renewed to a different vendor if the job was done poorly. That might actually work..

tedstriker

For added bonus:

http://www.statusireland.com/statistics/finacial-statistics-for-ireland/19/Ireland-Public-Sector-Average-Weekly-Earnings-2006.html

Kimbot

ixoy wrote: »

I'm guessing this was during the .com boom? Nobody gets that anymore in IT straight out. Never heard of it and I'd know people in multiple years from multiple IT courses. It's more in the 24k-30k range as a number of posts in other forums will attest to. Regardless, I'll agree your wage is by no means high for 8 years but I'm sure there are other benefits - from my experience with civil service systems, I find there's often about 2 or 3 excellent workers often picking up the slack for an equal number of poor workers, yet all are getting paid the same. I can't believe some of the staff I deal with are still SOs (not because

Yes it was but even at that it just shows how people are now adopting to hating Civil Servants because pay evened out all across the board.


Very rare that there are SO's in I.T, which depts are you dealing with??

Thanks for that - not sure how the HEO I talked to managed his big lump sum then! FWIW, I don't get any overtime pay rate (just at standard pay) but your overtime pay is far from exhorbant. I think the real overtime pay issue is with prison officers, guards, etc and not reall there so much in the civil service more the public service.

On a completely unrelated note, it's nice to see a public service topic that's actually stayed civil (pun intended)!

HEO's also have to forfeit the first hour of overtime every week.
I know of very little HEO's that actually do overtime, normally its CO's/SO's/EO's that do overtime.
I don't think Prison Officers work overtime its a diferent system to overtime. Its annualised hours I think they call it. (Normally the could work 3 days one week and 4 the next) to make up the decifit they then have something like 40 annualised hours a month.

Overtime is not worth it anymore as you get taxed heavily on it now compared to a few years ago when it was a little gold mine for people.


On a seperate note, most people have read reports in papers about this subject but they fail to remember alot of papers manipulate the truth in order to sensationalise things to sell said papers.
Ministers earn a fortune, if they took ministers out of the equation I would wonder how the average wages figures would look then?

K-9

jonny24ie wrote: »

Ministers earn a fortune, if they took ministers out of the equation I would wonder how the average wages figures would look then?

It isn't that hard. Count the Ministers and their pay and take it away from the bill.

Firetrap

Also, there are people at the top end of the civil service who earn big money

• 756 civil servants earn more than €100,000.

• 507 civil servants earn more than €90,000 a year.

• 814 earn more than €80,000.

• 819 earn more than €70,000 a year.

• 989 earn more than €60,000 a year.

(source)

Harolds+

I tell you how to save the economy and cut public sector pay.

You sack the Minsiters and their advisors and you let the civil servants run the country. Afterall, it wasn't the civil servants who got us into this mess but greedy corrupt Banksters and financial innstitutions.

You lock all doors in all Dept buildings and ensure there is no devious private investor or lobby groups sneaking up and whispering wars of words against civil and public sector staff (trying to lay blame on someone else).

Then when we have a proper hold on the situation you call a general election

The_Conductor

Harolds+ wrote: »

Then when we have a proper hold on the situation you call a general election

Nah- it was the politicians who got us into this mess in the first place. Hows about someone nips down to the Curragh and persuades the Army to declare martial law? I think a little bit of military rule wouldn't go astray and may help focus a few minds.......

Harolds+

smccarrick wrote: »

Nah- it was the politicians who got us into this mess in the first place. Hows about someone nips down to the Curragh and persuades the Army to declare martial law? I think a little bit of military rule wouldn't go astray and may help focus a few minds.......

They (Army) probably wouldn't be able to hear you or would be too busy guarding Brinks vans

mountainyman

Firetrap wrote: »

Also, there are people at the top end of the civil service who earn big money

• 756 civil servants earn more than €100,000.

• 507 civil servants earn more than €90,000 a year.

• 814 earn more than €80,000.

• 819 earn more than €70,000 a year.

• 989 earn more than €60,000 a year.

(source)

60,000 is the affordable housing cut off. I wouldn't regard that as 'big money'. I also don't understand your figures. How can fewer civil servants earn 90,000 than 100,000 as the group earning 100,000 is a subset of the group earning 90,000.

Is this the civil and public service or the civil service only?

The_Conductor

mountainyman wrote: »

60,000 is the affordable housing cut off. I wouldn't regard that as 'big money'. I also don't understand your figures. How can fewer civil servants earn 90,000 than 100,000 as the group earning 100,000 is a subset of the group earning 90,000.

Is this the civil and public service or the civil service only?

Civil service only (but includes Prison Officers).
It could have been better phrased- along the lines of "an additional x number of civil servants earned between y and z".......

In short- using your affordable housing cut-off as a benchmark- 88.5% of civil servants qualify for the affordable housing scheme......... (there being just under 37,000 in all government departments in total).

BroomBurner

Firetrap wrote: »

Also, there are people at the top end of the civil service who earn big money

• 756 civil servants earn more than €100,000.

• 507 civil servants earn more than €90,000 a year.

• 814 earn more than €80,000.

• 819 earn more than €70,000 a year.

• 989 earn more than €60,000 a year.

(source)

Of the above numbers that represent civil servants and prison guards, how many years has each of them worked in order to deserve those salaries?

Someone that is earning ~ €70,000 after 30 years in the service is hardly undeserving, is it? They probably worked their way up from CO to HEO. Do people seriously begrudge hard work and promotion?

LoLth

mountainyman wrote: »

60,000 is the affordable housing cut off. I wouldn't regard that as 'big money'. I also don't understand your figures. How can fewer civil servants earn 90,000 than 100,000 as the group earning 100,000 is a subset of the group earning 90,000.

Is this the civil and public service or the civil service only?

dont think its a subset, i would guess that its a

between 90 and 100k
over 100k


i could be wrong but that would explain the numbers

P. Breathnach

BroomBurner wrote: »

Of the above numbers that represent civil servants and prison guards, how many years has each of them worked in order to deserve those salaries?

Someone that is earning ~ €70,000 after 30 years in the service is hardly undeserving, is it? They probably worked their way up from CO to HEO. Do people seriously begrudge hard work and promotion?

It's a bit simplistic to link pay level with length of service. Some individuals might be worth no more after 30 years than they were after 6 months; others might be worth €70,000 after five years.

Over the past 10-15 years, promotion policies have moved towards a model based on merit and competition, so the chances of somebody getting to high pay rates simply by waiting long enough are much reduced.

BroomBurner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's a bit simplistic to link pay level with length of service. Some individuals might be worth no more after 30 years than they were after 6 months; others might be worth €70,000 after five years.

Over the past 10-15 years, promotion policies have moved towards a model based on merit and competition, so the chances of somebody getting to high pay rates simply by waiting long enough are much reduced.

That was exactly my point. If someone has worked hard and has managed to go from CO to HEO level (they would not be on 70G's if still a CO), then surely they deserve their wage? In general, those that rise to AP level are those that are good enough. The civil service isn't the same way it used to be. The current flock of APs and POs would have had to go through rigorous interview processes to get where they are now, surely? Those determing the promotions aren't stupid.

It's not perfect, but then nothing ever is.

sakigrant

Just a point on working bank holidays. If you are working within the public/civil service and you are on a roster you are obliged, by law, to work that holiday. Therefore, if you are rostered Xmas day, or in my case New Years day and Paddy's day this year I have to work it. I get a day off in lieu but it's not quite the same.

Also, in the late 90's early noughties the civil service encountered problems recruiting staff. There were several recruitment drives. The civil service was not attractive enough in the midst of the Celtic Tiger and the money that could be made in the private sector. I personally joined the civil service in 2001 and took a drop in salary of 12K punts which was considerable. I joined because of the security pension etc.

I feel this public/civil service bashing is doing the country no good and is exactly what Fianna Fail want. The government had the opportunity to get rid of the deadwood when the benchmarking process was intitiated but they had no bottle to go ahead.

irish_bob

sakigrant wrote: »

Just a point on working bank holidays. If you are working within the public/civil service and you are on a roster you are obliged, by law, to work that holiday. Therefore, if you are rostered Xmas day, or in my case New Years day and Paddy's day this year I have to work it. I get a day off in lieu but it's not quite the same.

Also, in the late 90's early noughties the civil service encountered problems recruiting staff. There were several recruitment drives. The civil service was not attractive enough in the midst of the Celtic Tiger and the money that could be made in the private sector. I personally joined the civil service in 2001 and took a drop in salary of 12K punts which was considerable. I joined because of the security pension etc.

I feel this public/civil service bashing is doing the country no good and is exactly what Fianna Fail want. The government had the opportunity to get rid of the deadwood when the benchmarking process was intitiated but they had no bottle to go ahead.

the goverment didnt try to cut numbers for two reasons , they would have faced huge resistance from unions and it would have resulted in reduced votes for local fianna fail td,s , oh and i forgot , bertie aherne made it his priority to never ever alienate one single voter demographic

sakigrant

irish_bob wrote: »

the goverment didnt try to cut numbers for two reasons , they would have faced huge resistance from unions and it would have resulted in reduced votes for local fianna fail td,s , oh and i forgot , bertie aherne made it his priority to never ever alienate one single voter demographic

True, but as people retired they did not need to replace. They should also not have set up the huge numbers of authorities and agencies which resulted in a large number of extra people, being recruited. Just look at the last budget where they shut some of them down. An Bord Snip Nua are looking at all the exisiting agencies to see if they can be brought back into their original depts. Also the geographic movement of depts was a financial disaster - increased rent, increased T & S etc