Civil Service Pay Analysis

Harolds+

Yes, people should keep their money in Banks but for the ones who can afford to invest/save should be put under the microscope.

Alot of civil servants can't afford to save and these vulnerable people are the ones getting attacked

NewDubliner

Harolds+ wrote: »

I would say a great deal of senior civil servants are doing exactly this (spreading the risk and their wealth abroad and I know 2 Senior CS who have done this) and are not contributing to this economy so therefore they should be the ones who should suffer and can afford to pay a bit extra.

You're making this up.

Harolds+ wrote: »

I haven't heard of a civil servant paying 41% tax

You're asking us to believe that no civil servant is on the 41% tax rate?

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

You're asking us to believe that no civil servant is on the 41% tax rate?

I believe he's saying that those on 41% are well enough that they don't need to sell their car or alter holiday plans.
This would account though for EOs+ so surely a reasonable number of CS are paying some part of their wage at 41%.

NewDubliner

ixoy wrote: »

I believe he's saying that those on 41% are well enough that they don't need to sell their car or alter holiday plans.
This would account though for EOs+ so surely a reasonable number of CS are paying some part of their wage at 41%.

How could he possibly know this for a fact? And wouldn't depend on what kind of car and how modest the holday plan?

I have a nephew working in the CS. He's a degree holder, works in an area involving ireland's obligations under complex international law. He and his wife qualified for social housing.

rkevin

nesf wrote: »

That's a fairly crass generalisation to be honest. Even if it were true, you're not looking at the situation correctly. The only way someone can prevent economic activity is by keeping their money underneath a mattress. If it's kept in a bank, which the vast majority of people do, then it can be lent out to others who will use it and thus create economic activity and keep the economy ticking. The person themselves doesn't need to spend it necessarily. quote]
where i work the general feeling is that lunch will be bought from home to cut there living costs because of the pension levy
there is 900 staff in my work place so the people will prevent economic activity because they cant afford it.
you could say that it is the goverement preventing economic activity with there pension levy and we will see what will the goverement do to help out all the shops and cafs and restraunts that depend on our lunch time trade.
the hard fact is that i have had wages cut by about 50 euro and i dont have that now to spend on lunch ect

Kristopherus

S. McCarrick wrote The civil service is less than 10% of the public sector, and less than 7% of the public sector paybill (other parts of the public sector are better paid- accounting for the difference in percentages). Almost 70% of the public sector are in the HSE. The number of civil servants is for the most part between 8 and 15% lower now than it was in 1990- and we have the lowest number of civil servants per head of population in the OECD. Over a similar timeframe the numbers of public sector employees in most other sectors has risen by in some cases over 20%.

S. McCarrick you are incorrect about the HSE. Total Nos in that segment is 115,000. Of that, roughly 16000 can be graded as Administrative. About 14%. There has to be a 3% cut in payroll across all Depts in 2009. Guess where the HSE are targeting the reduction ? IMO the biggest waste in HSE is the top-heavy management grades in HQ in Naas.This is what pisses people off.The vast,vast majority of staff work bloody hard for not very big wages. Overtime is a no no. I would not like to think what scenario will exist there in 2010.

Hillel

Godge wrote: »

The civil service is 100% employees. The private sector consists of employees, self-employed professionals, company directors, single tradesmen, sub-contractor, other self-employed etc. There is no black market in the public sector - what is published is what the employees receive.

True in some cases, only. The published figures relate to basic salary. They don’t take into account allowances in the nature of pay which can increase take home pay substantially. And there is the equivalent to a “black market” in the public sector. Most blatant is in the medical sector – consultants’ spring readily to mind. However, I also know other professionals who do additional private, often “under the table”, work. You might also talk to parents shelling out €1000’s per year on grinds for little Mary and little Seán.

Many civil servants get extra allowances (subsistence, travel, meals, etc.) which are extremely generous by private sector standards. In effect these are extra income. For example, unless it changed recently, a civil servant can often claim overnight subsistence even if they travel home after work. This wouldn’t be tolerated in the private sector, and correctly so.

ixoy wrote: »

Also would it not be better to reform something like PMDS? Often in the private sector you would have your work measured against others, rather than independently. Then you'd use a form of bell curve model so that 10% or so would have to fit in "must improve", 20% "could do better", etc. You'd then award pay increases to those who met targets and nothing for those who don't. I understand PMDS is designed for this but since so very very few don't get their pay increases, it's clear that it's not strict enough and doesn't take into account slackers - by forcing some form of bell curve model, could this help weed out those who are lazy?

Emphatically, yes. PMDS systems are not foolproof, even with well trained conscientious managers. Nevertheless, when implemented rigorously, they work reasonably well. Everywhere I’ve seen them implemented the improvement on productivity is substantial. I speak from direct experience, here. I have worked in a PMDS environment for some years. What is essential is to have checks and balances in the system to ensure that there is a level of consistency across each department.

The biggest problem with the bell curve is that you tend to have the same people at both ends, particularly the bottom, year in, year out. This is OK in private industry where the clear intent is to encourage underperformers to buck up, or else leave. It could be a real issue in the public sector where the individuals couldn’t be sacked and, I strongly suspect, would take only a marginal hit in pay.

jonny24ie wrote: »

Very good post man, I am in the service 8 odd years now, 2 promotions under my belt and only on about the €35,000 a year mark. I am working in I.T. with tonnes of certification under my belt in all areas of I.T. that I paid for myself. Anyone I know walked into I.T. jobs with no experience starting out at loest I was told €40,000 a year ranging to €50,000 a year with yearly pay rises. I know some of them up on €70,000 a year for doing feck all work yet I am half their wage working my a$$ off and I am the one who should take a pay drop or even a pay freeze.

Your information, insofar as it relates to the private sector, is incorrect. Only in very specific circumstances would an inexperienced Computer Science Graduate have been recruited on a salary above the mid €30’s. We’re talking top of class, honors graduates, most likely with an MSc in a relevant discipline. That was 2-3 years ago. Right now no one is recruiting permanent staff. Most companies are making headcount reductions, rather than recruiting. In any case there is a glut of experienced contract staff available for €400-€500 per day. Many of these are not contractors by choice, they been made redundant and are taking what they can get. I’m talking really experienced System Analysts, Software Designers, Application Architects etc., here. Experienced programmers are available for €300 pd, and less.

There are very few IT people in private industry doing “feck all”, let alone those on €70k per year. Those that are, if they exist, should consider their days numbered. (IT, in particular, is one of the areas under the spotlight as a result of the recession. Most companies are doing their best to really cut costs in this area.)

NewDubliner

Hillel wrote: »

Many civil servants get extra allowances (subsistence, travel, meals, etc.) which are extremely generous by private sector standards.

How many? How much?

Hillel wrote: »

Experienced programmers are available for €300 pd, and less.

That's, say, €1500/week or about €6,000/month?

Harolds+

NewDubliner wrote: »

How could he possibly know this for a fact? And wouldn't depend on what kind of car and how modest the holday plan?

Well NewDubliner, i own a house with a small enough mortgage but can't afford a car. I am getting married next year and am finding it very hard to save as everything is getting eaten up with bills etc.

I believe EO's and up are doing very well for themselves and if they bought in the affordable housing plan then thats tough sh1t. I had to pay inheritance tax, stamp duty (because I moved home) and bills etc like everyone else.

If my union wants to start industrial action there is alot of organisation to get involved and it is quite expensive.

If EO's (and upwards) want to cause unrest they don't attend meetings etc (very tough!)

By the way, I have a degree too. Should I get something extra for this?!?

NewDubliner

Harolds+ wrote: »

I believe EO's and up are doing very well for themselves

That would depend on the the details I think?

Harolds+ wrote: »

By the way, I have a degree too. Should I get something extra for this?!?

I have no idea, it would depend on your job, experience and the marketibility of your skills. Some people are getting a reasonable deal for their skills and some are not.

ParkRunner

Harolds+ wrote: »

I believe EO's and up are doing very well for themselves and if they bought in the affordable housing plan then thats tough sh1t. I had to pay inheritance tax, stamp duty (because I moved home) and bills etc like everyone else.

If my union wants to start industrial action there is alot of organisation to get involved and it is quite expensive.

If EO's (and upwards) want to cause unrest they don't attend meetings etc (very tough!)

By the way, I have a degree too. Should I get something extra for this?!?

I would start at AP level before categorising a group as doing well. The PSEU seem to be remarkably quiet on the issue of unrest, or anything for that matter..all I have seen is e-mails with Brian Cowen's speech to the Dáil last Tuesday and a calculator to find out how much it will cost each individual.

Harolds+

I know a PO living in Clonsilla;
I know an EO who owns a home in Donnybrook.

Its usually a matter a choice but more than ever its the lower grades that dont have that luxury to choose.

"depends on the details" should be : depends on what you earn!

Its not a big secret that the lower paid are targetted and are therefore the ones who carry the burden. Its high time the high earners in the CS relinquish some of their earnings. Afterall, they did very well whereas the low paid staff where the ones who didn't.

Hillel

NewDubliner wrote: »

How many? How much?

That's, say, €1500/week or about €6,000/month?

And that appears very attractive.

But, .....

* No pay for personal holidays, bank holidays, public holidays or "privilege days".
* No sick pay - has to take out Personal Health Insurance, or risk penury if serious illness.
* No occupational Pension - has to fund a pension from own resources.
* Has no in-house training - has to keep skills updated from own resources.
* May require professional indemnity insurance.

That's just a quick list, I probably missed something.
It's not really that well paid, not at that daily rate anyway - and you're under a lot of pressure.

Harolds+

EF wrote: »

I would start at AP level before categorising a group as doing well. The PSEU seem to be remarkably quiet on the issue of unrest, or anything for that matter..all I have seen is e-mails with Brian Cowen's speech to the Dáil last Tuesday and a calculator to find out how much it will cost each individual.

I take it you are a HEO, so!

I'm sorry, but I believe you should share the burden. I never heard a shout or scream from PSEU members but comment on how "its tough going but we are all in the same boat".

You must be in the Carpathia because our ship is down and have no chance of surviving these choppy waters but wait..."you have a job for life". I hate that condescending tone when it comes from higher up grades :mad:

Harolds+

Hillel wrote: »

And that appears very attractive.

But, .....

* No pay for personal holidays, bank holidays, public holidays or "privilege days".
* No sick pay - has to take out Personal Health Insurance, or risk penury if serious illness.
* No occupational Pension - has to fund a pension from own resources.
* Has no in-house training - has to keep skills updated from own resources.
* May require professional indemnity insurance.

That's just a quick list, I probably missed something.
It's not really that well paid, not at that daily rate anyway - and you're under a lot of pressure.

Sounds terrible. You never mentioned that they have the choice of flexi. What about the IPA? Sure you get money back from that!

ParkRunner

Harolds+ wrote: »

I take it you are a HEO, so!

I'm sorry, but I believe you should share the burden. I never heard a shout or scream from PSEU members but comment on how "its tough going but we are all in the same boat".

You must be in the Carpathia because our ship is down and have no chance of surviving these choppy waters but wait..."you have a job for life". I hate that condescending tone when it comes from higher up grades :mad:

Im a recently promoted EO, from CO, still living at home because I couldnt afford a home during the celtic tiger. I can take the hit alright because I refused to pay crazy money for a house and from your own posts you obviously have your own place to live. I don't think CO's should be hit with the pension levy at all, it is a disproportionate burden.

Hillel

Harolds+ wrote: »

I take it you are a HEO, so!

I'm sorry, but I believe you should share the burden. I never heard a shout or scream from PSEU members but comment on how "its tough going but we are all in the same boat".

There have been many opportunities over the past few years for public servants to study, get qualifications, and move up the grades. I would have thought that a maximum of €37, 584 for an entry-level grade, where no professional qualifications are required, was pretty good. Particularly when progress up the scale is automatic unless you make a really serious C0€k up.

Hillel

Harolds+ wrote: »

Sounds terrible. You never mentioned that they have the choice of flexi. What about the IPA? Sure you get money back from that!

Try it then, and see how you get on!

Harolds+

I am no way inclined to climb the ladder (you might think that crazy) but I like my position. I live in a fantastic area and am happy (although lack of cash is constant problem)

I have seen remedials climb the ladder based on "who they knew". I have an education but am amazed on how the CS system works and the people who run it - of course not all of them are [EMAIL="fu@kwits"]fu@kwits[/EMAIL].

I hope to God they examine it thoroughly and look at it from the top down because there are people up there who should be shot never mind lose their job!

ParkRunner

Harolds+ wrote: »

I am no way inclined to climb the ladder (you might think that crazy) but I like my position. I live in a fantastic area and am happy (although lack of cash is constant problem)

I have seen remedials climb the ladder based on "who they knew". I have an education but am amazed on how the CS system works and the people who run it - of course not all of them are [EMAIL="fu@kwits"]fu@kwits[/EMAIL].

I hope to God they examine it thoroughly and look at it from the top down because there are people up there who should be shot never mind lose their job!

Why not give it a shot so and push for promotion? When you reach the top you can then implement the changes you see necessary

Harolds+

Hillel wrote: »

Try it then, and see how you get on!

I'm not well up on pensions but I have to question that the category you just mentioned contribute towards pensions.

Believe me, I know HEO's and AP's who are seen with the Irish Times and gym bags in their hands (during working hours) than I see with documents.

I wouldn't mind trying "it then" and "see how" I "get on" :rolleyes:

Harolds+

EF wrote: »

Why not give it a shot so and push for promotion? When you reach the top you can then implement the changes you see necessary

Embargo - thats why! I have gone before and have beaten SO's (in the new system) but obviously not good enough or in the unsexy section (not personnel or organisation unit)!

Hillel

Harolds+, I think we're at cross purposes, here. You replied to my post on CONTRACTORS, and people who are contractors by force of circumstances, rather than choice.

Hillel wrote: »

Most companies are making headcount reductions, rather than recruiting. In any case there is a glut of experienced contract staff available for €400-€500 per day. Many of these are not contractors by choice, they been made redundant and are taking what they can get.

NewDubliner commented "That's, say, €1500/week or about €6,000/month?"

I explained why that wasn't as good a deal as it seemed.

Your response to that explanation was:

Harolds+ wrote: »

Sounds terrible. You never mentioned that they have the choice of flexi. What about the IPA? Sure you get money back from that!

I replied:

Hillel wrote: »

Try it then, and see how you get on!

Now, where does your post below, fit in?

Harolds+ wrote: »

I'm not well up on pensions but I have to question that the category you just mentioned contribute towards pensions.

NewDubliner

Hillel wrote: »

And that appears very attractive.

But, .....

It's not really that well paid, not at that daily rate anyway - and you're under a lot of pressure.

You've quoted a low-end IT contractor figure. It's about double what is paid as salary to CS programmers (recruited at the CO grade), and, as a contractor, as you get better at what you do, or your skills become harder to find, you can charge more. You can also engage in fancy tax accounting.

Some contractors I know charge €1500/day and the CS has no option but to pay it because the big vendors operate 'certification' schemes which restrict who can modify their systems.

Programmers in the CS have no career prospects and the government can cut their salary any time it pleases. Going forward, the 'job for life' might also turn out to be a false promise.

Hillel

NewDubliner wrote: »

You've quoted a low-end IT contractor figure. It's about double what is paid as salary to CS programmers (recruited at the CO grade), and, as a contractor, as you get better at what you do, or your skills become harder to find, you can charge more. You can also engage in fancy tax accounting.

Some contractors I know charge €1500/day and the CS has no option but to pay it because the big vendors operate 'certification' schemes which restrict who can modify their systems.

Don't be fooled by people trying to talk up their prospects. (Many online pay surveys are similarly unreliable.) I don't believe that any independent contractor is getting anything close to €1000/day, let alone €1500. There are simply too many well qualified staff available for way less than this. (Some did, during the IT boom - now long gone.)

It is true that some vendors charge €1000/day +, for high end technical specialists. A small number of specialist consultancies would charge 10%-20% less. I am talking here about Principal Software Engineers with excellent academic qualifications and extensive industrial experience in a wide range of engagements. However, almost without exception, the specialists are employees rather than contractors. They are on a wage like everyone else.

NewDubliner

Hillel wrote: »

They are on a wage like everyone else.

And how much is that wage?

How much does a CO/programmer working in the CS save the government compared to long-term contractors, even taking into account the pension provision for the CO?

Hillel

NewDubliner wrote: »

And how much is that wage?

That depends on the experience of the individual, the Industry Sector, the Technology Area, when they were recruited.....
As an example, experienced J2EE engineers are at the hotter end of the market. A new recruit, at Principal Engineer level, could expect to get €60k + performance bonus. He would be on a defined contribution pension. (Two years ago he could reasonably have expected €10k-€15k more.)

NewDubliner wrote: »

How much does a CO/programmer working in the CS save the government compared to long-term contractors, even taking into account the pension provision for the CO?

Training a programmer to become a Software Engineer is not a commercial proposition, of itself. There are far more cost-effective options now available. However, most in the software industry would consider hiring a Software Programmer an investment in the future. The payback happens when recruits gain experience and become systems analysts, application architects, software designers etc. Others, such as Software Delivery Managers take on substantially non-technical roles. Regardless, this is where the real value is added. Experienced Business Analysts and Business Process Analysts are another career option and there is still a strong demand for people with these skills.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

How much does a CO/programmer working in the CS save the government compared to long-term contractors, even taking into account the pension provision for the CO?

It's not that simple necessarily. On a day-by-day basis, sure a CO would seem cheaper. However many IT projects aren't long term, so the advantage is lost when you don't have new work for the CO personnel but can't remove them the way you would a contractor. There's also other issues such as deadlines - IT is well known for forcing people to work late hours, whereas it would often be a lot easier for a CO to refuse overtime. There's probably some room to get more CS people into it, but I can't see it being too feasible in a long-term scenario.

Hillel

ixoy wrote: »

IT is well known for forcing people to work late hours, whereas it would often be a lot easier for a CO to refuse overtime. There's probably some room to get more CS people into it, but I can't see it being too feasible in a long-term scenario.

In IT deadlines are key, in the private sector. Miss them very often and your business is down the tubes. There is an expectation that IT staff will work the hours necessary to meet commitments. This applies not only to contractors, but also to staff on personal contracts (PCs). Most staff on PCs are not paid overtime but are paid a bonus at year end. The bonus is recognition for the effort put in, but is in no way comparable with public sector overtime pay rates.

Ticktactoe

Hillel wrote: »

Particularly when progress up the scale is automatic unless you make a really serious C0€k up.

I dont think you realise how many people you can offend with that statement. Progress up the scale is most certainly not 'automatic' even after numerous attempts. I know there is a lot of agro on this thread, but a little consideration with certain statements wouldn't go a miss and its not just the one quoted. Sniff sniff.... im gonna go and crawl back under my rock that i just came out from under.. ;-)

By progress im referring to grade progress, CO to EO to HEO etc...
If its progress in relation to increments APPOLOGIES!