Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann to reduce services & cut jobs.

Time Magazine

Victor wrote: »

Assumming Maynooth Community Church doesn't do either transport or finance, could you back up that graph with numbers?

Lol. Taken from their Annual Reports. I can't remember whether they're adjusted for inflation or not.

AlekSmart

I'm not surprised they are losing a fortune. I've a mate who used to work as a mechanic in Dublin Bus, here is an example of their working practices:

Task: Diagnose an electricial problem with a bus, suspected alternator failure.

(1) Panel beater/"body systems specialist" has to remove engine bay access panels from bus to allow access to alternator.

(2) Mechanic has to connect bus to diagnostic system to diagnose fault, which turns out to be the alternator.

(3) An electrician has to disconnect the alternator from the charging circuit on the bus, as this is "his job".

(4) The mechanic can then remove the bolts from the alternator that have secured the alternator to the engine block.

Alternator is now removed from the bus.

(5) Security have to have the component "security cleared" for release out of the building to be reconditioned, with associated form filling and additional beaurocracy.

(6) Now the "procurement/purchasing" department get involved in packaging the component and sending across the city to be reconditioned.

You can consider the installation of the component to be the reverse of the above. In an independent workshop, this component would be removed by a mechanic, sent off to be reconditioned or replaced and would be refitted by a mechanic, end of story.

Im afraid I have to dispute the above version of things.

I Can only assume that Daragh29`s friend was employed some years ago in the old CIE days as the practices outlined there were comprehensively dispensed with over 20 years ago.

The CURRENT situation for that Alternator problem is exactly as described at the end of the post...ALL the appropriate work,including electrical fault diagnosis is carried out by the SAME Tradesperson.

However Daragh29`s post does demonstrate just how entrenched a VIEW can be in the public phsyche even though it ceased to be accurate some 2 decades past.
Multiskilling,retraining and ongoing multi-disciplinary development continues to be the day to day situation in Bus Atha liath maintenance AND it`s private sector "partners".

Incidentally,the exact same procedure was in place in Aer Lingus Maintenance and Engineering up until the early 1990`s and the ill fated TEAM takeover.

Its perhaps noteworthy that no amount of multi-skilling and efficiency improvements in that location could prevent the bad news last week about GulfAir`s sessation of contract with FLS,the successors of TEAM.

markpb

The Economist wrote: »

Their subsidy doesn't go to good use.

Your graph ignores congestion and the growth in the size of the city during the same time period. More cars in the same roads (look at a graph of irish car ownership over the same period) means more buses (and their drivers) sitting in traffic going nowhere while would-be passengers further downstream end up driving because the service is so woeful. Meanwhile, more estates are built in the suburbs and outer suburbs which DB now serve, making routes longer, slower and face even more congestion.

When faced with congestion and a city that barely gives any priority to buses, there are two options. Load more buses onto the same route (costing more) or have the same timetable bearing even less resemblance to reality.

Time Magazine

markpb wrote: »

Your graph ignores congestion and the growth in the size of the city during the same time period.

I think it subtly acknowledges both. Congestion is not a reason to increase PSOs by an order of five.

As for the "growth in the size of the city", I think what really matters here is the growth in commuting, which you'd expect to have a big impact on the blue line as well as on the orange one. Despite so many more people moving around, that line is practically horizontal. You have to ask why.

Carawaystick

Does the graph account for the almost complete replacement of Dublin bus's fleet with wheelchair accessible busses? these can't be too cheap.

Ireland's most successful public transport company also carry's Druggies and alcoholics can drink on their planes - as long as they buy on the plane, Michael O'Leary doesn't care too much.

thebman

Carawaystick wrote: »

Does the graph account for the almost complete replacement of Dublin bus's fleet with wheelchair accessible busses? these can't be too cheap.

Ireland's most successful public transport company also carry's Druggies and alcoholics can drink on their planes - as long as they buy on the plane, Michael O'Leary doesn't care too much.

I think the difference is your not supposed to do it on a bus. People don't light up on an Aer Lingus flight.

Or leave cans on the plane to roll over the floor or get sick on the floor (anytime I've travelled anyway) nor do they spill it all over the place leaving a stink on the plane.

Oh and perhaps most important, the plane can't pull over and kick them out and they occassionally land if a passenger is being too abusive on a flight to kick them off.

nesf

Húrin wrote: »

Good point. However, the PDs actually did manage to get their programme adopted (an unpopular programme, apparently), but the Greens did not. So it is surely clear that Fianna Fail are to blame? Or do you think there is a "FF can do no wrong" factor at play with some voters?

It's amazing how quickly people forget what the PDs wanted before they ever got into Government. Look at when they were founded and their programmes and ideas and now look at what's standard FF/FG positions in those areas, you'll find a lot of them very similar.

nesf

The Economist wrote: »

Their subsidy doesn't go to good use.

Source please. Anyone can do up a graph like that in Excel in 2 minutes etc et al. (I don't doubt that it's real from what I've seen of Dublin Bus figures but you should give a source if you're linking to a graph like that to pin your argument around)

Time Magazine

Carawaystick wrote: »

Does the graph account for the almost complete replacement of Dublin bus's fleet with wheelchair accessible busses? these can't be too cheap.

No. The subsidy figure excludes the free buses given to Dublin Bus. You can imagine what the graph would be like if you include capital subsidies.

nesf wrote: »

Source please. Anyone can do up a graph like that in Excel in 2 minutes etc et al. (I don't doubt that it's real from what I've seen of Dublin Bus figures but you should give a source if you're linking to a graph like that to pin your argument around)

I've already given the source.

Victor

The Economist wrote: »

Lol. Taken from their Annual Reports. I can't remember whether they're adjusted for inflation or not.

The full data doesn't seem to be in the published reports (whatever about material provided on a shareholder-company basis).

nesf wrote: »

Source please. Anyone can do up a graph like that in Excel in 2 minutes etc et al. (I don't doubt that it's real from what I've seen of Dublin Bus figures but you should give a source if you're linking to a graph like that to pin your argument around)

OK, The Economist has given me a plausible source for the graph, but can't show the data. We will put away that stick, but remember it for the next time.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Does the graph account for the almost complete replacement of Dublin bus's fleet with wheelchair accessible busses? these can't be too cheap.

Possibly an issue, but we have the peace process to consider.

Indeed, it isn't so important the amount of the subsidy, but under what headings is the subsidy. Indeed a breakdown of all departmental payments to the CIÉ group would be most interesting.

Time Magazine

Victor wrote: »

The full data doesn't seem to be in the published reports.

The data which I provided is publicly available. The ESRI provides subsidy and passenger numbers (page 3 of PDF) until 2005 while the 2006 and 2007 BÁC Annual Reports are here and here.

antoinolachtnai

markpb wrote: »

Your graph ignores congestion and the growth in the size of the city during the same time period. More cars in the same roads (look at a graph of irish car ownership over the same period) means more buses (and their drivers) sitting in traffic going nowhere while would-be passengers further downstream end up driving because the service is so woeful. Meanwhile, more estates are built in the suburbs and outer suburbs which DB now serve, making routes longer, slower and face even more congestion.

When faced with congestion and a city that barely gives any priority to buses, there are two options. Load more buses onto the same route (costing more) or have the same timetable bearing even less resemblance to reality.

This may all be true, but Dublin Bus hasn't vigorously raised this as an issue for some time. According to the 2007 annual report, DB seemed happy enough that this problem was being resolved by the QBN program. As late as July this year, a senior representative of Dublin Bus told a radio station that enough was being done to implement traffic priority in Dublin City Centre.

Re the graph, it does not appear to include the capital subsidy, only the operating subsidy.

Victor

Rescaling the graph, with year 2000 as base 100 doesn't look quite so bad (I'm guessing at the numbers, will read up on the links The Economist just gave).

nesf

Victor wrote: »

Rescaling the graph, with year 2000 as base 100 doesn't look quite so bad (I'm guessing at the numbers, will read up on the links The Economist just gave).

Eh, if you take the base year in the middle of any time series like that, of course it will "look better" because of the visual effect of the lines crossing each other. To anyone trained to read them, the two graphs are identical and one doesn't look better than the other since the figures are identical. The base 1998 version gives a more accurate picture of the inflation that's been going on with respect to the subsidy.

Grudaire

Has anyone seen what the subsity is abroad to give a fair comparison

And for those who think privitisation is the answer
http://uninews.unimelb.edu.au/view.php?articleID=3294

Victor

nesf wrote: »

Eh, if you take the base year in the middle of any time series like that, of course it will "look better" because of the visual effect of the lines crossing each other. To anyone trained to read them, the two graphs are identical and one doesn't look better than the other since the figures are identical. The base 1998 version gives a more accurate picture of the inflation that's been going on with respect to the subsidy.

Alternatively, the base picked was low or even extraordinarily low.

One thing that has come to mind is theat they have moved from a mixed fleet to a nearly all double-decker fleet - only 72 out of 1148 vehicles are now single deck.

antoinolachtnai

Since the fleet has bigger capacity, you would expect it to carry more passengers. The newness of the fleet should yield better reliability and lower maintenance costs.

Remember, there were fare increases as well. It would make more sense to draw the graph of total operating costs (which is fares + subsidy - profit) and compare that to the passengers carried or kilometres driven. This will also take into account an allowance for the capital subsidy (which was 13m last year).

There is no point in comparing subsidies directly, because that won't give you any insight into the level of services in that city.

Best you can do is compare the price per km of operating buses in a number of cities:

Massey has done this in table 4 of this report.

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20070328122524/QEC2007Spr_SA_Massey.pdf

He also subtracts out the amount of this that is attributable to congestion.

Note that the UK prices would be a lot lower at present because of the decline in sterling.

If you feel like drawing graphs, it's also worth looking at the amount of capital that's now invested compared to a few years ago.

Re Melbourne link - I don't understand the point of this. Melbourne has three times the population of Ireland, yet the cost of running their transport system (eur 600m) is less than 2.5 times the cost of running our bus system alone (about 280m in 2007). (That's not to say they don't have problems, but on the face of it, overspending is not one of them.)

snaps

over 300 jobs going, routes being cut and they still put up fares by 10% when fuel costs are dropping all the time.

Thank god for private bus firms.

K4t

I heard a Dublin Bus representative on the radio saying that only Bus drivers were being let go. No admin would be let go. Right. :rolleyes:

djpbarry

Article from Ciarán Cuffe on the subject in today's Times; some pretty simple initiatives that could be easily implemented:

DUBLIN BUS requires radical reform to meet the needs of bus users. The company made a profit of €4.7 million in 2007, but lost €10 million last year and will lose €31 million this year unless action is taken. Last week management chose the easier option of service cutbacks instead of the reforms required to modernise the company.
...
Although most quality bus corridors are successful, many routes meander around the city. The number 17 takes an hour and 20 minutes to travel from Blackrock to the terminus in Rialto. En route it travels six miles to reach Dundrum, a journey of only three miles as the crow flies.
...
The Dublin Transportation Office has computer modelling that show the origins and destinations of the journeys that Dubliners make. This information should be used to transform Dublin Bus routes into a network that better serves the city’s needs.
...
An over-supply of bus stops also complicates matters. Placing bus stop every 250 meters slows down buses. Fewer bus stops might add a minute or two to the walk to the stop, but would reduce bus journey times.
...
Timetables at bus stops state when the bus should leave the terminus. Instead, they should inform you when buses will depart from the bus stop. In other cities, buses pause for a moment along their route if required in order to stick to schedule.
...
A free bus map would help. The printed map of the Dublin Bus network costs €3 and is hard to obtain. A map showing all public transport including Luas and rail would attract more users. The Dublin Bus website is searchable by bus number and destination, but it is left to a private site – www.justroutes.com – to permit you to choose your starting point and destination and find the bus you need.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0122/1232474672081.html

markpb

Blah blah blah... hopeless political rhetoric.... blah blah blah

Of course DB needs improvement but of the five points he makes, two of them are the responsibility of the city councils and one is constantly blocked by the DoT leaving only two with DB.

This man is in government (albeit in a minor government party). He needs to be making these points to his government colleagues and Noel Demsey, not to us!

djpbarry

markpb wrote: »

This man is in government (albeit in a minor government party). He needs to be making these points to his government colleagues and Noel Demsey, not to us!

How do you know he is not?

The Greens just can't win, can they? They go along with FF policy, they're criticised for being weak and reneging on their pre-election promises. They openly criticise a FF decision and they're dismissed and told to stop wasting their time sharing their ideas with the public.

markpb

If he's making those points in government and to the local authorities, his article could say that. What's the point of a member of government writing an article in a national paper telling the public what the government should be doing?

Time Magazine

markpb wrote: »

What's the point of a member of government writing an article in a national paper telling the public what the government should be doing?

Indeed, what's the point in any public figure garnering popular support for reform?

LoveDucati2

Dublin Bus killed off the excellent service Mortons buses provided from Celbridge and Leixlip. Clean comfy buses, nice polite drivers and regular users to ease the horrible commute in Dublin.

djpbarry

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Dublin Bus killed off the excellent service Mortons buses provided from Celbridge and Leixlip.

I don't understand this - if the service was so excellent, then how did Dublin Bus succeed in "killing it off"?

thebman

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Dublin Bus killed off the excellent service Mortons buses provided from Celbridge and Leixlip. Clean comfy buses, nice polite drivers and regular users to ease the horrible commute in Dublin.

This point should be highlighted IMO.

I can't see any excuse for not at least trying to privatise the bus and rail services now.

Rail can be done safely if you copy the current UK model which works. They haven't had problems for years.

We do absolutley need a unified ticket system though and a capped price (max price, no minimum). Anyone entering the market, after a few years should have to contribute to line maintenance which would reduce the burden on the tax payer for this.

We'll get more services and they'll cost the taxpayer less. Whats not to like?

RollerGirl

Here an idea for keeping rural unprofitable routes - why not re-infroduce the Post buses? They were very handy for many, especially the elderly.

Sand

I don't understand this - if the service was so excellent, then how did Dublin Bus succeed in "killing it off"?

Mortons offered value for money - 2 euro from Celbridge into the city. In exchange you got clean buses, friendly drivers [ if you were running for a stop theyd actually wait for you instead of driving off, if they were stopped theyd let you on the bus instead of ignoring you], no scumbags and several of the services avoided the traffic deathtrap that is Lucan village. Into the city in 30-45 minutes most mornings. It also stuck quite efficiently to the time tables it issued. It did well and was expanding services on the route.

I moved from the area, but from what friends have told me a mixture of CIE [ typical monopoly behaviour] saturating the route with bus's [ a cheaper service, with dirty vehicles, ignorant drivers, loads of scumbags and much slower - but if you want to get into the city, most people will get on the first bus running in that direction] plus rising fuel costs put Mortons under severe pressure.

We'll get more services and they'll cost the taxpayer less. Whats not to like?

Unions dont operate from the point of view of offering the best service at the lowest cost to the public. They operate from the point of view of offering the least possible service at the highest possible wage.

thebman

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't understand this - if the service was so excellent, then how did Dublin Bus succeed in "killing it off"?

I live in Maynooth, standing a Liffey you could actually see at least twice as many of the buses on this route than any of the other routes and most of them were half empty.

He's right, people just jump on the first bus that comes especially if its raining.

I get 67A if it comes before the 66. I know it takes longer but I'll be dry and a little more comfortable. Given there both Dublin Bus services, I can't count on another bus turning up even if its scheduled.