Should there be a limit on the number of SH players that a NH club can have?

twinytwo

as we know there is a influx of SH players into the NH and alot of clubs have them. And while this is great for the clubs its is catastrophic for the international teams. More so in ireland than else where as we only have 4 teams.

toomevara

Not to worry Twinytwo, This debate is about to be rendered very academic indeed. The day of the big NH pay-off for SH has-beens is about to come crashing to a halt courtesy of the dreaded credit-crunch.

The fact is that the money just isn't going to be there. Teams will have to be looking towards academy and local players to meet their needs. Already over here there's speculation that some serious squad trimming is going to be implemented, which means there'll be alot of pretty desperate players prepared to ply their trade for a lot less than the current going rate.

It's clear for example that Wasps are really struggling to meet Cipriani's pay demands, and in say Newcastle's case, one or two big name SH imports constitute a massively disproportionate(and unsustainable) part of their overall wage bill. Carl Hayman alone costs something in the order of quarter their wages, for one overblown import!

There are serious concerns in the GP at the minute about a number of teams and their futures. And don't think the Irish provinces/game will be immune! Hard times ahead for many players and teams. Over priced SH imports will be the last thing on most clubs' lists...!

Podge_irl

There are legal implications with restricting the number of SH players due to the Kolpak ruling. An awful lot of SH players end up with EU passports as well, further complicating issues. An awful lot of rugby clubs are skirting very close to the law at present with the emphasis on home-grown players.

boredatwork82

yes there should be a limit. I reckon 2 non-national players per team should be the limit, with an extra one on the bench.
The quality of Irish players been left off privincial and club teams is ridiculous.
Look at connacht.... Liam Bibo and Troy nathan are starting ahead of Danny Riordan and John O'Brien of Buccs. I would rate those guys as better than bibo or nathan.
Barry Murphy is an incredible player but we only get to see him in his centre position when tipoki gets injured.
The Irish National team will suffer as long as foreign imports fill the key provincial positions.

themont85

boredatwork82 wrote: »

yes there should be a limit. I reckon 2 non-national players per team should be the limit, with an extra one on the bench.
The quality of Irish players been left off privincial and club teams is ridiculous.
Look at connacht.... Liam Bibo and Troy nathan are starting ahead of Danny Riordan and John O'Brien of Buccs. I would rate those guys as better than bibo or nathan.
Barry Murphy is an incredible player but we only get to see him in his centre position when tipoki gets injured.
The Irish National team will suffer as long as foreign imports fill the key provincial positions.

Ah here your stretching it here.

bamboozle

Barry Murphy is unable/unwilling to pass the ball

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

Not to worry Twinytwo, This debate is about to be rendered very academic indeed. The day of the big NH pay-off for SH has-beens is about to come crashing to a halt courtesy of the dreaded credit-crunch.

Not a chance.As has been widely discussed by sporting financial institutions,sports are usually minimaly affected by a recession.

Whatever about ireland in where we rely on the IRFU alot,in England they dont and if the punters keep coming and sky sports keep paying money for the rights they will continue to come over.

The clubs that are struggling are clubs like Wasps and Newcastle who have overpaid players and small grounds.Succesful clubs get most of their money from this avenue and both get very little from it.

Also take into account that even by recession standards,Leinster ticket prices are extremely reasonable and also taking into account that the players are not being paid big money in comparison to other sports eg football,decent crowds and a bit of tv money will still easily cover their wages.

We may see a slowdown and less coming over but the stars will still come.

Recession or not,Europeans earn alot more than people in the SH.So their disposable income will always be higher.

Also take into account rugby is a majority middle class sport in Ireland and England at least and I have yet to see any people losing their jobs in the office environment etc,it seems to be mostly manual labour jobs getting hit and im sure if you do a study of most rugby fans,less than 10% would work in these jobs.

Rugby league however is ****ed.

zillmere

toomevara wrote: »

Not to worry Twinytwo, This debate is about to be rendered very academic indeed. The day of the big NH pay-off for SH has-beens is about to come crashing to a halt courtesy of the dreaded credit-crunch.

SH has beens? The only reason the NH teams buy them is because they think they will get a return on the initial investment. Leinster didn't throw money at Elsom because they had too much money.

If NH teams have to buy SH players to fill positions, they should take a look at their developement programs

themont85

Melina Agreeable Wrongdoing wrote: »

Not a chance.As has been widely discussed by sporting financial institutions,sports are usually minimaly affected by a recession.

Whatever about ireland in where we rely on the IRFU alot,in England they dont and if the punters keep coming and sky sports keep paying money for the rights they will continue to come over.

Also take into account that even by recession standards,Leinster ticket prices are extremely reasonable and also taking into account that the players are not being paid big money in comparison to other sports eg football,decent crowds and a bit of tv money will still easily cover their wages.

We may see a slowdown and less coming over but the stars will still come.

Recession or not,Europeans earn alot more than people in the SH.So their disposable income will always be higher.

Also take into account rugby is a majority middle class sport in Ireland and England at least and I have yet to see any people losing their jobs in the office environment etc,it seems to be mostly manual labour jobs getting hit and im sure if you do a study of most rugby fans,less than 10% would work in these jobs.

Rugby league however is ****ed.

Yep i agree the GP just signed a new deal with Sky/Setanta for more money and SKy just renewed both their England rugby and HC contracts. Rugby at club level never really has high ticket prices so i dont think thats a factor. Other things such as increased taxes could, however on a smaller basis.

toomevara

Melina Agreeable Wrongdoing wrote: »

Rugby league however is ****ed.

Crazy talk Goose! we're all good to go with the newly expanded SL!;)

Serenity Now!

twinytwo wrote: »

as we know there is a influx of SH players into the NH and alot of clubs have them. And while this is great for the clubs its is catastrophic for the international teams. More so in ireland than else where as we only have 4 teams.

I think you mean players that do not qualify for the national side that the club, or in Ireland's case, province (Connacht, Leinster, Munster and Ulster are not clubs). The players 'in the way' are not always from the Tri Nations countries such as Danielli in Ulster or McCarthy in Connacht.

I think the limit of overseas players in a team playing ML and ERC rugby should be a maximum of two onfield at the same time and four in a squad.
Kolpak ruling is under examination at the moment and could be scrapped. In current debate in Brussels since end-november. You never know...

Toomevara, I wouldn't have called, when they signed, Daniel Carter, Luke McAlister, Peter Hewat, Felipe Contepomi or Rocky Elsom 'has-beens' :P

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

Crazy talk Goose! we're all good to go with the newly expanded SL!;)

Whens that back on?
I was quite enjoying it last year.
Although from watching that and the nrl I think I prefer the way the aussies play,it seems faster or something.

twinytwo

take Mafi and tipoki for example while these two are oustanding players and munster might not be where they are without them.. that is 2 less centres available for international selection. Also at fly half with manning and warrick no irish lad gets a look in

themont85

twinytwo wrote: »

take Mafi and tipoki for example while these two are oustanding players and munster might not be where they are without them.. that is 2 less centres available for international selection. Also at fly half with manning and warrick no irish lad gets a look in

I thought Manning was Irish eligable at this stage.

TarfHead

Melina Agreeable Wrongdoing wrote: »

Not a chance.As has been widely discussed by sporting financial institutions,sports are usually minimaly affected by a recession.

I don't agree.

Why are the Drumaville looking to exit Sunderland ? Because many of them are being squeezed for cash at home, so they can't indulge their ambitions for Sunderland any further.

Similarly Gaydamak (sp?) at Portsmouth. How much of the revenue from Diarra to Real Madrid or Defoe to Spurs will trickle into the club ? The owner has extensive property-based debt that needs to be serviced, so if he can take a greedy premium out of Portsmouth, he will.

For GP clubs, it depends on how they are financed. I doubt that many of them are yet self-sufficient. If the people making up the shortfall out of their own resources are being affected by the recession, the clubs will be affected too.

toomevara

Melina Agreeable Wrongdoing wrote: »

Whens that back on?
I was quite enjoying it last year.
Although from watching that and the nrl I think I prefer the way the aussies play,it seems faster or something.

Feb 6th. 8:00pm. Kick off here at Headingley. Leeds V new Boys the Celtic Crusaders. Cannot fecking wait. Just got me new season Tickets through last week. Expanded from 12 to 14 teams this year (ring fenced for 3, no relegation, should insulate the teams against the worst of the crunch).

As for the NRL, much as I love it, I prefer the SL, its faster and more creative...too much feck-arsing about at the play the ball in Oz, although the Aussies have gone for 2 refs on the field this year. Should be an 'interesting' experiment.

TarfHead

TarfHead wrote: »

I don't agree.

Why are the Drumaville looking to exit Sunderland ? Because many of them are being squeezed for cash at home, so they can't indulge their ambitions for Sunderland any further.

Similarly Gaydamak (sp?) at Portsmouth. How much of the revenue from Diarra to Real Madrid or Defoe to Spurs will trickle into the club ? The owner has extensive property-based debt that needs to be serviced, so if he can take a greedy premium out of Portsmouth, he will.

For GP clubs, it depends on how they are financed. I doubt that many of them are yet self-sufficient. If the people making up the shortfall out of their own resources are being affected by the recession, the clubs will be affected too.

I take your point and there are indeed some clubs that will be destroyed.Ospreys are a perfect example (did you see their empty stadium against the European champions Munster ) in the magners and there are at least 4 in England.

In saying that
The guy at portsmouth is exiting because he bought it on behalf of his father ( who actually owns the club),who is now being investigated because he is not allowed to own companys in the eu.Dodgy stuff indeed.

Portsmouth also spent a huge amount of money this summer,20 million and alot the season before,they are a small club who have not gained any significant fanbase by their rise to the premier league and were just a stupid club to buy in the first place.

you are right about him being squeezed for money but just because portsmouth might not be sustainable doesnt mean other clubs wont.

Roy keane spent 60 million pounds after being funded by people like charlie chawke who are not worth anywhere near enough to be bankrolling a premier league club,they are now trying to exit because disaster is imminent and they are losing money fast.

Keane was probably the worst manager in the premiership at spending money,he wasted nearly every penny they gave him and sunderland have a ridiculous amount of players on their books and 90% of them flopped.Keane thought he could take clowns like diouf and change them,well he failed.

When they got up the Drumaville consortium counted their financial model on staying in the premiership,this is worth about 70 million pounds to them a year.If they go down,that consortium will be nearly bankrupt.

Look at clubs like Wigan,Villa etc,who spend their money carefully and dont overspend.

Clubs like Utd and Liverpool can just about support because of their fanbase,this is similar to Munster and Leinster in that they have alot of fans and market themselves very well,we have the benefit though of not being in huge debt.

Well leinster do anyway,I think Munster owe the IRFU the guts of 20 million,I could be wrong though but Munster like UTD will be ok because of their fanbase.

Serenity Now!

Melina Agreeable Wrongdoing wrote: »

Clubs like Utd and Liverpool can just about support because of their fanbase,this is similar to Munster and Leinster in that they have alot of fans and market themselves very well,we have the benefit though of not being in huge debt

What keeps clubs going like that is the corporate buck and endorsements.

Melina Agreeable Wrongdoing wrote: »

Well leinster do anyway,I think Munster owe the IRFU the guts of 20 million,I could be wrong though but Munster like UTD will be ok because of their fanbase.

Where did you get that from???

curts82

Club rugby is a business now! the kinda players being brought in are better than what is there homegrown! and with that its hurting our international side.

sm.org

themont85 wrote: »

I thought Manning was Irish eligable at this stage.

He is , its just that he's no good.

Serenity Now!

Serenity Now! wrote: »

What keeps clubs going like that is the corporate buck and endorsements.


Where did you get that from???

The IRFU end of year accounts.

Who do you think paid for the stadium?

The IRFU loaned them 80% or so of the money,I dont think they will have a problem paying it back,I was just using them as an example of a big club,with a big debt,that will survive the recession.


Liverpool get around 16 million a year from carlberg and maybe 15 million on top of that from others,anfield and merchandise would account for the majority of the money brought in that isnt from the tv deals.Their corparate deals are very poor.

toomevara

curts82 wrote: »

Club rugby is a business now! the kinda players being brought in are better than what is there homegrown! and with that its hurting our international side.

And this is the point. Rugby is a business, and like every other business which relies on discretionary spending,that business will suffer. Look at the GP...only three clubs made any money last year...Gloucester, Leicester and Northampton...that from the best supported domestic league in the world is very scary indeed. Alot of that, to get back onto the OT is from these clubs cutting each others throats to sign the latest SH big cheese.

Podge_irl

I imagine most GP teams would reach the salary cap whether they were signing big SH names or not. It certainly doesn't help that the likes of Wasps, which have a large number of English players, end up in serious trouble during the 6 Nations due to international call-ups.

Serenity Now!

Melina Agreeable Wrongdoing wrote: »

Who do you think paid for the stadium?

The IRFU. Its their stadium. Munster are a branch of the IRFU. They are NOT a club.

crisco10

Podge_irl wrote: »

I imagine most GP teams would reach the salary cap whether they were signing big SH names or not. It certainly doesn't help that the likes of Wasps, which have a large number of English players, end up in serious trouble during the 6 Nations due to international call-ups.

This is where it gets interesting. Its easy to say "All the provinces should field 13 Irish internationals all the time" and this is said to be "good for the national team" which undoubtedly is the case.

But from the point of view of the province this gets messy come AI's and 6 nations etc. Can't think of a better example but say Sexton was playing so well last year that Leinster let Felipe go. (I know implausible but its irrelevant to my point). And they don't bring in Nacewa because they want to support Irish players.

What would Leinster do come international time? Sexton has been called up. Who do you play OH? some blue youngster, he struggles and Leinster lose. Coach in trouble, team wallowing mid table etc...

Compare this to the current case, there aren't any great OH's, bring in Felipe and Nacewa they not only are better than the current crop but also will be there all of the spring. Thus minimising disruption in key areas of the pitch.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that the Irish team is the primary concern and we should look after it first but lets face it, the Provinces are a pretty important income stream for the IRFU and they create huge interest in rugby between internationals. They need to be looked after as well.

Podge_irl

Its a slightly difference scenario with the irish teams, as the ML doesn't run on international weekends, whereas the GP does.

Serenity Now!

toomevara wrote: »

As for the NRL, much as I love it, I prefer the SL, its faster and more creative

SL more faster and creative than the NRL?????

Who makes your glasses, Toomevara? Feckarse Industries?

Serenity Now!

Serenity Now! wrote: »

The IRFU. Its their stadium. Munster are a branch of the IRFU. They are NOT a club.

Munster will be paying back for their stadium,over time.

toomevara

Serenity Now! wrote: »

SL more faster and creative than the NRL?????

Who makes your glasses, Toomevara? Feckarse Industries?

Actually, they're very trendy FCUK numbers I'll have you know *cocks snoot in Serenities general direction*.

Re NRL, i know it sounds implausible, but the aussies allow too much grappling in the tackle which permits defences to get re-set too quickly, which means you dont see alot of the scintillating break-out play which characterises the SL.
I think slowly but surely the English and Aussie game are diverging...

Serenity Now!

toomevara wrote: »

Actually, they're very trendy FCUK numbers I'll have you know *cocks snoot in Serenities general direction*.

Re NRL, i know it sounds implausible, but the aussies allow too much grappling in the tackle which permits defences to get re-set too quickly, which means you dont see alot of the scintillating break-out play which characterises the SL

Scintillating break-out play in SL is simply down to the defending team having too many Brits playing for it or the Aussies, Kiwis and Islanders simply having an off day

toomevara wrote: »

I think slowly but surely the English and Aussie game are diverging...

I find Super League boring. Its like watching a VERY long year of 'W'CC finals. Condescending, eh?

Nice sidetrack too.
Been a pleasure...I'll get me coat.:D

sm.org

toomevara wrote: »

Actually, they're very trendy FCUK numbers I'll have you know *cocks snoot in Serenities general direction*.

Re NRL, i know it sounds implausible, but the aussies allow too much grappling in the tackle which permits defences to get re-set too quickly, which means you dont see alot of the scintillating break-out play which characterises the SL.
I think slowly but surely the English and Aussie game are diverging...

Probably one of the more informed league posts on the union forum. Sorry but people who say that SL is gash and full of over rated English players just dont watch enough of either SL or NRL. It's twice as quick as the NRL and although the world club championship is probably not the best barometer there's a reason the SL teams have won it 7 of the last 9 times. Believe me the Aussies really want to win it too.

crisco10

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its a slightly difference scenario with the irish teams, as the ML doesn't run on international weekends, whereas the GP does.

Llanelli Scarlets v Leinster 20th Feb
Ospreys v Leinster 6th Mar

Both these matches during 6 nations where only players who haven't played for Ireland are released.

And it didn't really happen this year but has in previous years. players being unavailable at the start of the season because they are in the Internationals training camp thingy.

This also forgets the fact that Mafi, Tipoki, Elsom Contepomi etc will get some rest in February when the home based players are away with the national team.

toomevara

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I find Super League boring. Its like watching a VERY long year of 'W'CC finals. Condescending, eh?

Outrageous!! Why I oughta.....

.Do me a favour and catch a few SL games thsi season if you can. Reckon you'll be pleasantly surprised. British League was boring at one point but the last 5 years have seen a radical change. Don't get me wrong I love NRL and have Setanta just to watch it, but I reckon the super league is now a superior more spectator friendly game....

Crash

Ahem....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=599

:P

toomevara

Going Waterforward wrote: »

Ahem....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=599

:P

Feck, my trojan horse, 'plant a league discussion in the union forum' subterfuge uncovered....*legs it*

Serenity Now!

sm.org wrote: »

Probably one of the more informed league posts on the union forum. Sorry but people who say that SL is gash and full of over rated English players just dont watch enough of either SL or NRL. It's twice as quick as the NRL

I watch plenty of RL, thanks. I played it in Australia (not NRL level I might add). SL just does my head in. Also take the NRL excess coaches and players out of it and you've bugger all left

sm.org wrote: »

and although the world club championship is probably not the best barometer there's a reason the SL teams have won it 7 of the last 9 times. Believe me the Aussies really want to win it too.

Yes, its been in England and played in sh*thouse conditions. Thats an easy one.
I'd say Manly are the first team I can think of blatently taking it as a serious game this year.

There. Thats me done. Sorry for sidetrack, mods. Back on track.

Podge_irl

crisco10 wrote: »

Llanelli Scarlets v Leinster 20th Feb
Ospreys v Leinster 6th Mar

Both these matches during 6 nations where only players who haven't played for Ireland are released.

During the 6 Nations, but not actually on a 6 Nations weekend. The rule about releasing players was very much an EOS thing, it remains to be seen what Kidney will do.

Diabhal Beag

I think there should be a limit for the sake of the Super 14 as well as all club rugby.

Podge_irl

For the record, there is technically a limit already in place. I believe its two "foreign" players per squad (maybe XV) for both the ML and HEC. The issues arise because they legally can't restrict players from certain countries playing (EU and Kolpak countries). There is basically nothing that can be done for the time being.

sm.org

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I watch plenty of RL, thanks. I played it in Australia (not NRL level I might add). SL just does my head in. Also take the NRL excess coaches and players out of it and you've bugger all left


Yes, its been in England and played in sh*thouse conditions. Thats an easy one.
I'd say Manly are the first team I can think of blatently taking it as a serious game this year.

There. Thats me done. Sorry for sidetrack, mods. Back on track.

Its in England because Bradford went to Aussie , won it and its been retained ever since. The Aussies have been fielding full strength teams the past few seasons bud I know because I played Rugby League 2 by EA but not on the PS3

Serenity Now!

Little Shyte wrote: »

I think there should be a limit for the sake of the Super 14 as well as all club rugby.

Excellent point.

crisco10

Podge_irl wrote: »

During the 6 Nations, but not actually on a 6 Nations weekend. The rule about releasing players was very much an EOS thing, it remains to be seen what Kidney will do.

True. Will be very interesting to see if this policy changes...