Aengus Ó Snodaigh (of Sinn Fein) & his Goebbels/ Nazi/ Israeli outburst

The Saint

marcsignal wrote: »

I agree, but i have something to add to that, and I'm taking a bit of a risk saying it, but i'm going to say it anyway.

Holocaust Memorial Day is coming up on January 27th. I think that if this madness and slaughter going on in Gaza is still happening by that date, any of our Government Ministers invited to attend, including our President, should show the kind of balls that Aengus Ó Snodaigh has, and refuse to attend, as a mark of respect to the people being subjected to the new Israeli Holocaust in Gaza.

I completely disagree. This memorial should not be used for any political grandstanding by any side. What happened during the holocaust has no realation to what is happening now. It should be apolitical and have nothing to do with Israel. It should be a memorial to the 6 million people systematically exterminated by the Nazi's. Also I wish people would stop comparing the holocaust to what is happening now. It's completely different and just makes people look silly and weakens their arguement when they make the comparison.

marcsignal

The Saint wrote: »

.....It should be a memorial to the 6 million people systematically exterminated by the Nazi's.....

well actually it was 11 million people, it's just you only ever hear about the 6 million who were jewish.

CDfm

marcsignal wrote: »

well actually it was 11 million people, it's just you only ever hear about the 6 million who were jewish.

somepeople might object that its insensitive to the memories of all the victims for the Israeli Representatives to attend this year. The Chief Rabbi of Ireland could represent the Jewish faith a long with representatives of other ethnic groups who were affected.

marcsignal

CDfm wrote: »

somepeople might object that its insensitive to the memories of all the victims for the Israeli Representatives to attend this year. The Chief Rabbi of Ireland could represent the Jewish faith a long with representatives of other ethnic groups who were affected.

Good point, and a good idea.

The Saint wrote: »

It should be apolitical and have nothing to do with Israel

The problem is, it's regularlly used by Israel as a political tool. Visiting Dignitaries to Israel are all met at the airport and brought straight to the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial, without exception, as par for the course on State visits.
This is not something i just heard somewhere incidentally, the fact was stated by Gulie Ne'eman Arad in a C4 Documentary on the subject. She teaches European History at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. The object of the exercise, is to put visiting dignitaries on the back foot/defensive straight away if they are in Israel to negotiate something, a 'guilt trip' if you will.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Well it would be typical anyway. Not the first time the Irish govt would have turned a blind eye on or washed their hands of the holocaust.

that's not really a fair comment about the Irish Government at the time. The Americans and British put up many obstacles preventing refugees fleeing nazi persecution from entering both countries respectively. As well as that, large American banks such as Chase Manhattan profiteered from holocaust victims. The American Air Force and RAF refused to bomb Auschwitz Birkenau main camp, despite the fact they were bombing the synthetic rubber plant at Auschwitz Monowitz less that 40Km away, despite being pleaded with to do so by Jewish groups. These Jewish groups were frequently told to make 'no further requests of this nature' by the war office in England.

but all that is off topic tbh

FTA69

marcsignal wrote: »

Holocaust Memorial Day is coming up on January 27th. I think that if this madness and slaughter going on in Gaza is still happening by that date, any of our Government Ministers invited to attend, including our President, should show the kind of balls that Aengus Ó Snodaigh has, and refuse to attend, as a mark of respect to the people being subjected to the new Israeli Holocaust in Gaza.

Considering Israeli media are now highlighting the Irish government's critical response to the invasion, and generally having a moan about the issue, our crowd will definitely show up making some sort of conciliatory message. You can be sure of that.

To be honest I don't think a boycott of this would be in anyway helpful at all; besides the Holocaust wasn't solely a Jewish issue, and should be kept a seperate issue from what's going on in Palestine today.

If the crowd here had any balls though, they'd expel the ambassador.

Something we can all do as citizens is boycott Israeli goods, something which is a very effective tactic e.g South Africa. Likewise it is a direct approach on behalf of the citizen, as opposed to petitions calling on the great and the good to do whatever.

The Saint

marcsignal wrote: »

The problem is, it's regularlly used by Israel as a political tool. Visiting Dignitaries to Israel are all met at the airport and brought straight to the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial, without exception, as par for the course on State visits.
This is not something i just heard somewhere incidentally, the fact was stated by Gulie Ne'eman Arad in a C4 Documentary on the subject. She teaches European History at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. The object of the exercise, is to put visiting dignitaries on the back foot/defensive straight away if they are in Israel to negotiate something, a 'guilt trip' if you will.

I don't care who does it. I said that no side should use a memorial for politcal expediency. It should be a memorial for those killed during the holocaust, not a political football. It's very bad taste.

marcsignal

All good points FTA69

FTA69 wrote: »

If the crowd here had any balls though, they'd expel the ambassador.

Totally agree

FTA69 wrote: »

Something we can all do as citizens is boycott Israeli goods, something which is a very effective tactic e.g South Africa. Likewise it is a direct approach on behalf of the citizen, as opposed to petitions calling on the great and the good to do whatever.

Totally agree again. In fact the parallels to the treatment meted out to the Palestinians is shamefully similar to South African Apartheid.

The Saint wrote: »

I don't care who does it. I said that no side should use a memorial for politcal expediency. It should be a memorial for those killed during the holocaust, not a political football. It's very bad taste.

well actually I agree with you in principle. My point was that the Israelies do this all the time, and have been for years, but who would want to commit political suicide by telling them it's in bad taste ?

TOMASJ

Sand wrote: »

A Provo TD would be an expert on that I suppose.

Honestly, the Provos never cease to amaze me with their brass neck. They cant even admit abducting a mother of ten, torturing her, executing her and then burying her in an unmarked grave - denying her family the chance of a proper funeral - is in anyway wrong.

Using this logic,
The ANCs Nelson Mandella, The Dalai Lama (a terrorist according to the Chinese) not to mention Tony Blair, George W Bush, Ehud Olmert, are all of the same ilk as Aongas O'Snodaigh and Sinn Fein,
the three Leaders of the free world being more perverse than Sinn Fein by factor of say 5000,

marcsignal

TOMASJ wrote: »

the three Leaders of the free world being more perverse than Sinn Fein by factor of say 5000,

you said it better than i ever could TOMASJ

respect

Liam Byrne

jank wrote: »

The Jean McConville retort yet again. Its like a broken record at this stage. One can very easily say the RUC/UVF/ British Army did this or that but what would be the point of that apart from bringing this topic off course.

Yup, WAY off course, considering that the RUC/UVF/British Army haven't come out and condemned Israeli actions.

If they did, there might be some validity in raising that angle, but they didn't.

As for the accusations of "Shinner bashing" :rolleyes: it's not unreasonable to highlight the fact that someone can't condemn something from high moral ground if they've engaged in and supported similar actions themselves.

It'd be like Bertie coming out against taking "dig-outs" or "loans" from strangers. It's a credibility issue.

And yes, there's a bigger issue than highlighting this, considering that - once again - innocent people are being killed. But the thread is specifically about a particular person's views and how they don't equate to their (hopefully former) views.

Having said that, I actually find myself partially agreeing with TOMASJ on part of this issue; Bush has also lost credibility and can't condemn Israel's actions, because it's precisely what he did himself in invading Iraq.

If he'd previously condemned other actions, then maybe he could have the same high moral ground as an ex drug addict giving a talk in a school, but he hasn't so therefore he can't.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Yup, WAY off course, considering that the RUC/UVF/British Army haven't come out and condemned Israeli actions.

If they did, there might be some validity in raising that angle, but they didn't.

As for the accusations of "Shinner bashing" :rolleyes: it's not unreasonable to highlight the fact that someone can't condemn something from high moral ground if they've engaged in and supported similar actions themselves.

Yet as SF & the PIRA primarily see themselves as fighting an occupation, they don't see their actions as similar to Israels.

Dyr

The ambassador said Ireland was lucky in its neighbours – the Atlantic Ocean and the Irish Sea. “Guess what? We live in a different neighbourhood,” he said. He said Ireland had never had to fight an outside enemy or use force. His spokesman later said it was important to clarify Dr Evrony meant “since independence”.

of course he did :rolleyes:

FTA69

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Yup, WAY off course, considering that the RUC/UVF/British Army haven't come out and condemned Israeli actions.

The British government that controlled those three organisations has condemned aspect of the Israeli invasion though, which is the height of hypocrisy considering they invaded two countries in the not so distant past.

As for the accusations of "Shinner bashing" :rolleyes: it's not unreasonable to highlight the fact that someone can't condemn something from high moral ground if they've engaged in and supported similar actions themselves.

When did Sinn Féin ever lay siege to a place, kick the native people off their land, build loads of settlements, create an apartheid state etc etc etc. Nobody is denying the fact that Republicans have engaged in violent actions in the past, but that was in the context of a war of national liberation, not pounding an unarmed, destitute populace.

marcsignal

As i've already said, I've never supported Sinn Fein, and tbh don't think i ever will, but it has to be recognised that they are a party that has evolved from a long history of armed struggle. Some of their serving members today (Gerry Adams, Martin Mc Guinness etc) took an active part in the most recent period of that armed struggle.

Although I feel they still have a bit of a way to go to prove themselves, because of accusations about dubious connections with underworld figures in the recent past etc. I feel they deserve credit for their contribution to the peace process, and in time they may well earn the trust of more the mainstream parties and politicians in Ireland. That is going to take time to fully achieve.

Having said that, in the meantime, I think jibes about kneecappings, bombs, bank robberies etc are unhelpful and a little petty. Yes they have had a dubious past, but they deserve the chance to prove that they are moving towards the mainstream, and are hopefully leaving all of the other unsavoury parts of their past behind for good.

All that considered, I honestly feel the remarks made about Aongas O'Snodaigh, who I have little time for, are just unhelpful, snide, cheap and petty. If i'm honest, I think Aongas O'Snodaigh was right to speak out and highlight the hiprocracy of the Israeli Ambassador, because I personally think our other politicians have walked on eggshells for far too long on the middle east problem.

Aongas O'Snodaigh may not be able to deliver his message with the eloquance of Senator David Norris, but I respect him for speaking out about this matter nonetheless.

Serenity Now!

FTA69 wrote: »

Considering Israeli media are now highlighting the Irish government's critical response to the invasion

Neither the Irish govt or the Rep. of Ireland have any sway or influence on middle eastern matters so I don't think the Israeli govt would be quaking in their boots too much...

partyguinness

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Neither the Irish govt or the Rep. of Ireland have any sway or influence on middle eastern matters so I don't think the Israeli govt would be quaking in their boots too much...

Yeah its been pretty obvious for years that the Israeli gov/people cldnt give a flying **** about what anyone thinks of them...

CDfm

marcsignal wrote: »

As i've already said, I've never supported Sinn Fein, and tbh don't think i ever will, but it has to be recognised that they are a party that has evolved from a long history of armed struggle. Some of their serving members today (Gerry Adams, Martin Mc Guinness etc) took an active part in the most recent period of that armed struggle.

Aongas O'Snodaigh may not be able to deliver his message with the eloquance of Senator David Norris, but I respect him for speaking out about this matter nonetheless.

I feel the same and am not an SF supporter but feel that Aongas O'Snodaigh has every right to criticise another politician- and I used one off topic example where Alan Shatter had implimented legislation without any safeguards himself as an example where he wasnt above reproach.

marcsignal

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Neither the Irish govt or the Rep. of Ireland have any sway or influence on middle eastern matters so I don't think the Israeli govt would be quaking in their boots too much...

what's new about that ? The Israeli Government don't give a shit what anyone thinks, including the United Nations, the World Court and the countless Human Rights Organisations all over the world.

Serenity Now!

marcsignal wrote: »

what's new about that ? The Israeli Government don't give a shit what anyone thinks, including the United Nations, the World Court and the countless Human Rights Organisations all over the world.

I didn't say it was 'new'. I said it made sweet eff all difference due to the Republic of Ireland's stature in diplomatic circles.

marcsignal

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I didn't say it was 'new'. I said it made sweet eff all difference due to the Republic of Ireland's stature in diplomatic circles.

perhaps, but i'd sleep little sounder at night if i thought our Government sent a clear signal that they don't approve of what is slowly turning into another holocaust, considering some people accuse us of ignoring the first one in ww2

LordSutch

marcsignal wrote: »

I think jibes about kneecappings, bombs, bank robberies etc are unhelpful and a little petty.

But are kneecappings, bombs, bank robberies etc, a little petty?

marcsignal wrote: »

Aongas O'Snodaigh may not be able to deliver his message with the eloquance of Senator David Norris, but I respect him for speaking out about this matter nonetheless.

Not only is O'Snodaigh incapable of delivering an eloquant speech, but his Nazi/Goebbels comments were distasteful & hypocrytical ~ to say the least.

CDfm

Camelot wrote: »

But are kneecappings, bombs, bank robberies etc, a little petty?



Not only is O'Snodaigh incapable of delivering an eloquant speech, but his Nazi/Goebbels comments were distasteful & hypocrytical ~ to say the least.

Its about time people draw a line behind the past.O'Snodaigh is a TD.

I can see both sides of it - and Ireland does have some limited influence in Europe.Talking Palestine its begging out for some kind of peacekeeping force.

And isnt Barack Obama the new US President descended from an Offally man as is our own Taoiseach

partyguinness

Camelot wrote: »

But are kneecappings, bombs, bank robberies etc, a little petty?



Not only is O'Snodaigh incapable of delivering an eloquant speech, but his Nazi/Goebbels comments were distasteful & hypocrytical ~ to say the least.

Yes the comparison may be over the top but he is entitled to comment as he sees fit as an elected member of Dail Eireann.

I find unfortunate is that the Israeli propaganda machine will not hesitate in playing the Holocaust card when it suits them so using an analogy from Nazi Germany is just trying stooping to their level and is only exactly what the Israelis love to hear..it adds to their sense of "Us vrs Them" attitude.

Serenity Now!

marcsignal wrote: »

perhaps, but i'd sleep little sounder at night if i thought our Government sent a clear signal that they don't approve of what is slowly turning into another holocaust, considering some people accuse us of ignoring the first one in ww2

If that helps people relax then they must believe any old guff the govt says. They don't give a stuff. They, in their own view, have bigger problems to deal with on home turf. Thats why Cowen was in Japan and not Cairo.

marcsignal

Camelot wrote: »

But are kneecappings, bombs, bank robberies etc, a little petty?

No not at all, they are a very serious problem that have to be dealt with, but that's all part of the peace process and the evolution of Sinn Fein. It would be brilliant for ALL of these things to simply stop overnight, but it doesn't work like that. Sometimes you have to take two steps forward, and one step back to make progress. It's unfortunate, and frustrating at times, but that's just the way political evolution works.

Camelot wrote: »

.... but his Nazi/Goebbels comments were distasteful & hypocrytical ~ to say the least.

possibly, but it could be argued that to ignore the UN, shell hospitals, and kill children is equally distasteful, and a war crime incidentally, under the Geneva Convention.

FTA69

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Neither the Irish govt or the Rep. of Ireland have any sway or influence on middle eastern matters so I don't think the Israeli govt would be quaking in their boots too much...

I never said it was quaking in its boots, simply that the Irish response to their invasion was covered in the Israeli press, and that they have described their relationship with the state as "cool", they also said on the press over there that we were the most hostile in the EU. According to the Irish Times anyway.

marcsignal

Serenity Now! wrote: »

If that helps people relax then they must believe any old guff the govt says. They don't give a stuff. They, in their own view, have bigger problems to deal with on home turf. Thats why Cowen was in Japan and not Cairo.

then it's probably just as well for the Israelies that the World is in such financial hoc. Pretty much gives them the green light to carry on as they are, without anyone on the outside meddling in their plans.

kmick

To be fair to Aengus O Snodaigh I think he was referring to Goebbels use of propaganda and spin to turn any piece of information into a version of the truth which suits your purpose. He was the inventor of these types of spins.

However on the other side of things Aengus reminds me of a very ugly irish version of Mohammad Ali while under the influence of the nation of Islam. He says lots of things he may not necessarily understand because he heard it from someone and it sounded true.

Serenity Now!

marcsignal wrote: »

then it's probably just as well for the Israelies that the World is in such financial hoc. Pretty much gives them the green light to carry on as they are, without anyone on the outside meddling in their plans.

Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt,Israel and Syria have pretty much done as much tinkering about in that region as they want anyway so I don't see how Ireland even in the mid-90s would have ever affected middle eastern matters anyway (apart from selling passports to any old Saudi that came along :rolleyes:). The only factor that stopped the Six Day War going any further was the cold war as Syria was doomed to fall. Apart from that, its been a virtual free-for-all since year dot.

dlofnep

Most people are more worried about the killings of 300+ children, than Ó Snodaigh's comparison of propaganda. You are once again having another bash at Republicans on boards Camelot. Where's your thread to condemn the mindless slaughter of 100's of Palestinian civilians? Oh that's right - There is none, as it doesn't give you a medium to bash Republicanism.