equal rights for fathers??

craiginireland · 18-01-2009 5:27pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Ok I see what you are saying. Practically speaking I see what you are talking about only working in cases of split ups where the child has been cohabitating with both parents for a number of years. Otherwise what are you going to do? Walk into the hospital and take the baby out of the mothers arms?

Secondly with what you propose, you will see a LOT more men doing the walking. Thirdly, I dont think what happens in NY State is any better for direct, inverse reasons to what happens in Ireland. Its pretty draconian and brutal from what I have seen.

Sorry for the ignorance but what happens in NY?

CDfm · 18-01-2009 5:33pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Ok I see what you are saying. Practically speaking I see what you are talking about only working in cases of split ups where the child has been cohabitating with both parents for a number of years. Otherwise what are you going to do? Walk into the hospital and take the baby out of the mothers arms?

Secondly with what you propose, you will see a LOT more men doing the walking. Thirdly, I dont think what happens in NY State is any better for direct, inverse reasons to what happens in Ireland. Its pretty draconian and brutal from what I have seen.

In a way its a bit like " No taxation without representation" I also believe that if the father is not allowed access he shouldnt be expected to pay.

CDfm · 18-01-2009 5:41pm

craiginireland wrote: »

CDFM i've never heard of AMEN before, I'll definetly check it out

Check it out and call them.

It was started by a Woman and has a lot of women volunteers

Im not saying its easy but if you are commited to seeing your child you could do worse then visit them.:cool:

metrovelvet · 18-01-2009 5:42pm

craiginireland wrote: »

Sorry for the ignorance but what happens in NY?

You dont need to say sorry.

Well, first of all enforcement is strong and arguably that is good, but it also means you should keep a copy of the custody agreement in a convenient place for when the cops show up at the door asking to see it.

I went down to family court to investigate it myself. Both my son [just oer 12 months at the time] and I went through body searches and metal detectors. That was enough to make me want to run.

There was a playroom for small children to stay in while their parents were across the hall battling it out.

There were electronic boards with names of individuals listed in the order they were to see the judge:

smith vs jones
simpson vs clayborn
kelly vs jordan

The paper work is incredible. They pracically want your bloodtype. They want a physical description of the father, with annotations around tatoos, birthmarks, etc. They want every form of ID you have. They want to know the dates of the sexual relationship [if unmarried]. They want to know everything.

And they will put your ass in jail if you are late with maintenace or sloppy with access. And I disagree with NY state prison as a solution to this.

The whole set up is so so so bad, so wrong, so anti child and souless. So I have to disagree with cdfm on this, although I used to agree with it until I saw it first hand.

craiginireland · 18-01-2009 5:48pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

You dont need to say sorry.

Well, first of all enforcement is strong and arguably that is good, but it also means you should keep a copy of the custody agreement in a convenient place for when the cops show up at the door asking to see it.

I went down to family court to investigate it myself. Both my son [just oer 12 months at the time] and I went through body searches and metal detectors. That was enough to make me want to run.

There was a playroom for small children to stay in while their parents were across the hall battling it out.

There were electronic boards with names of individuals listed in the order they were to see the judge:

smith vs jones
simpson vs clayborn
kelly vs jordan

The paper work is incredible. They pracically want your bloodtype. They want a physical description of the father, with annotations around tatoos, birthmarks, etc. They want every form of ID you have. They want to know the dates of the sexual relationship [if unmarried]. They want to know everything.

And they will put your ass in jail if you are late with maintenace or sloppy with access. And I disagree with NY state prison as a solution to this.

The whole set up is so so so bad, so wrong, so anti child and souless. So I have to disagree with cdfm on this, although I used to agree with it until I saw it first hand.

Holy crap :eek:

On that note, i read about a guy before christmas going to prison becuause he couldnt afford the maintanance. Thats wrong.

metrovelvet · 18-01-2009 5:50pm

craiginireland wrote: »

Holy crap :eek:

On that note, i read about a guy before christmas going to prison becuause he couldnt afford the maintanance. Thats wrong.

Agreed. Prison is just wrong wrong wrong for enforcement of either maintenance or access.

CDfm · 18-01-2009 5:58pm

craiginireland wrote: »

Holy crap :eek:

On that note, i read about a guy before christmas going to prison becuause he couldnt afford the maintanance. Thats wrong.

It happens all the time and you should live in the real world.

It could be you - maintainance is enforced by jailtime in Ireland and access isnt.

Sorry Metro but when you have women withoulding access how would you enforce access -you cant fine them money?

craiginireland · 18-01-2009 6:06pm

CDfm wrote: »

It happens all the time and you should live in the real world.

It could be you - maintainance is enforced by jailtime in Ireland and access isnt.

Sorry Metro but when you have women withoulding access how would you enforce access -you cant fine them money?

Charming:rolleyes:

metrovelvet · 18-01-2009 6:08pm

CDfm wrote: »

It happens all the time and you should live in the real world.

It could be you - maintainance is enforced by jailtime in Ireland and access isnt.

Sorry Metro but when you have women withoulding access how would you enforce access -you cant fine them money?

Why cant you? Have maintenance withheld [ok I know they shouldnt be linked] and put into an account for the child or have her do community service. JAIL is not the answer!

CDfm · 18-01-2009 8:50pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why cant you? Have maintenance withheld [ok I know they shouldnt be linked] and put into an account for the child or have her do community service. JAIL is not the answer!

I always find the people against jail are those who havent had it hard enough.

I would award sole custody to the wronged parent as they do in some places where they recognise Parental Alienation Syndrome.

Maybe Thaed has a view.

metrovelvet · 18-01-2009 10:39pm

CDfm wrote: »

I always find the people against jail are those who havent had it hard enough.

I would award sole custody to the wronged parent as they do in some places where they recognise Parental Alienation Syndrome.

Maybe Thaed has a view.

Is this your version of the joke "what do you call someone who has never been mugged? A: A liberal."

I am against throwing parents in jail for reasons of access and maintenance, because it doesnt suit the crime. If the state throws a parent in prison then it is the state who is practising parental alienation. Why cant you see that?

Stheno · 18-01-2009 11:34pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

I am against throwing parents in jail for reasons of access and maintenance, because it doesnt suit the crime. If the state throws a parent in prison then it is the state who is practising parental alienation. Why cant you see that?

But if the state "condones/facilitates" the denial of access to parents/parental alienation (be they male or female) by the primary carer of children is that any better?

Imo it is not, now granted my knowledge/experience of this is only of couples who have been married/lived together and have split up after having children. One friend of mine at the moment is going through a seperation having had a breakdown and the sheer stress for him is appalling, in terms of access to his children and the financial ramifications to him due to seperation (sorry I know that's OT, it was more explanatory than anything else, apologies)

In the case where both parents can no longer live/communicate civilly together, there surely has to be a system which faciliatates their children getting access to both parents, and enjoying a healthy and happy relationship where both parents wish to be fully involved (within the parameters of a relationship breakdown) with their children??

And I don't agree with denial of maintenance to force access either (I know you've said that), nor do I agree with jailtime for non payment of maintenance/withdrawal of access, I'd wonder at the feasability of a service run by Family Services where they would facilitate access/visitation?

They certainly do an incredibly good job in providing family mediation services imo and could potentially be a facilitator in resolving access disputes where maintenance has been agreed by a court?

Just my opinion, not one I've had personal experience of, but one that I've seen the sad reality of in the case of several friends.

Actually, would Ireland ratifying the right of children to have advocates of their own go any way to resolving this issue?

CDfm · 18-01-2009 11:35pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Is this your version of the joke "what do you call someone who has never been mugged? A: A liberal."

I am against throwing parents in jail for reasons of access and maintenance, because it doesnt suit the crime. If the state throws a parent in prison then it is the state who is practising parental alienation. Why cant you see that?

I am not joking Metrovelvet. Put it in proportion the parent who is a victim is totally powerless and innocent and so is the child and both habve been harmed emotionally.The miscreant parent is in contempt of court.

I dont see anyway in enforcing access orders by the courts in Ireland other then jailing the miscreant parent or awarding sole custody to the other parent. Anyway its the law but its not done.

If you feel there is another way of enforcing access orders and restoring balance and allowing fathers take an active role in bringing up their children I would be pleased to hear it.

Unfortunately -while the family services and legal system adopt a gender bias towards mothers there is going to be an issue. Its tough but I can see no other way.

Nevyn · 18-01-2009 11:43pm

nouggatti wrote: »

Actually, would Ireland ratifying the right of children to have advocates of their own go any way to resolving this issue?

I think it would.

In many cases father's do not have suitable accommodation to have thier children stay over in, thankfully the housing authories are starting to give houses to single dads who will have their children coming to stay.

I know of 1 dublin city centre project that runs a day centre where Dads can bring thier kids and spend time with them, play, do homework and cook for them before having to bring them 'home' rather then being a mcdonalds dad.

We should have some where which is a neutral space for the collection of kids where there is a complete break down in communication and family on both sides won't help.

I would not hold my breathe waiting for it happen mind.

Stheno · 19-01-2009 12:01am

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think it would.

In many cases father's do not have suitable accommodation to have thier children stay over in, thankfully the housing authories are starting to give houses to single dads who will have their children coming to stay.

Yes, recent experiences of male friends and colleagues have opened my eyes somewhat to the system here, and how it is imo flawed against the non primary partner who moves out of the family home (again I'd just like to stress that my opinion is based on cohabiting relationships which have ended)

I know of 1 dublin city centre project that runs a day centre where Dads can bring thier kids and spend time with them, play, do homework and cook for them before having to bring them 'home' rather then being a mcdonalds dad.

Out of curiousity Thaed, do they open at the weekends? If they do, that's a small step in the right direction at least

albeit for a minority of the population

We should have some where which is a neutral space for the collection of kids where there is a complete break down in communication and family on both sides won't help.

I would not hold my breathe waiting for it happen mind.

That's exactly what I was thinking of, you've put it far more succinctly than I did, thanks

As with you, I'd not hold my breath either.:rolleyes:

CDfm · 19-01-2009 12:02am

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think it would.

In many cases father's do not have suitable accommodation to have thier children stay over in, thankfully the housing authories are starting to give houses to single dads who will have their children coming to stay.

I know of 1 dublin city centre project that runs a day centre where Dads can bring thier kids and spend time with them, play, do homework and cook for them before having to bring them 'home' rather then being a mcdonalds dad.

I would not hold my breathe waiting for it happen mind.

Here is one initiative Fathers Family Time thats open a few hours each Sunday and I believe its facilities are given by the methodist Church

http://www.iol.ie/~pe/FFT_intro.html

Thaed if you know of another you should post it as the lack of resourses for Dads is pitiful.

Also Thaed -if the Childrens Rights advocates were there it is likely that they would be drawn from the same pool of social workers that already have an anti-dad bias and affiliation. They are not all as fairminded as you are IMO.

CDfm · 19-01-2009 12:13am

craiginireland wrote: »

Bit hard when he's only in playschool. He tells me bout it and he seems to love it so. Unless there are monkeys in his class in which case i've lots more questions

CDFM i've never heard of AMEN before, I'll definetly check it out

You should - there are a lot of guys in your boat - and once you meet guys with kids your kids age you can do things in a group. It gives a sense of community and playdates.

Gingerbread too can be supportive once access is regularised.

metrovelvet · 19-01-2009 12:42am

nouggatti wrote: »

But if the state "condones/facilitates" the denial of access to parents/parental alienation (be they male or female) by the primary carer of children is that any better?

The Irish state is passive on enforcement in both access and maintenance for both sides. It is as passive about access also when the non custodial parent doesn;t adhere to the agreement as it is to the custodial parent. Is this right? No it certainly isnt, but prison is by far wose. Another form of enforcement needs to be applied.

CDfm · 19-01-2009 1:05am

metrovelvet wrote: »

The Irish state is passive on enforcement in both access and maintenance for both sides. It is as passive about access also when the non custodial parent doesn;t adhere to the agreement as it is to the custodial parent. Is this right? No it certainly isnt, but prison is by far wose. Another form of enforcement needs to be applied.

Metrovelvet - I dont mean to pick on you but you are the only one posting .

Parents who dont apply for access are not affected- these guys loose their rights by not enforcing them. Non custodial parents(mainly fathers) that do are and so are their parents and siblings and the child to.So each breach of access can affect on average between 7 to 9 people. Thats a huge number inconvenienced.

The Irish courts are not passive on non payment of maintainance - even small amounts of arrears 20 or more euro can mean jailtime. I gave 20 to a guy in a courthouse in Dublin while he was waiting to be shipped to Mountjoy -and it got him released.

The Irish Courts are passive in enforcing access orders where the person breaching or fraustrating the order is a woman. They simply will not back their orders or enforce them in any way at all. The only tools are a fine or jail and they should use them.

If you have a particular system I would like to hear it. Say if a child is not handed over the guards and health service should have the power and duty to deliver the child to the non custodial Dad forthwith or take the custodial parent into custody.

Tell me how it would otherwise work?

K-9 · 19-01-2009 4:28am

CDfm wrote: »

The Irish Courts are passive in enforcing access orders where the person breaching or fraustrating the order is a woman. They simply will not back their orders or enforce them in any way at all. The only tools are a fine or jail and they should use them.

If you have a particular system I would like to hear it. Say if a child is not handed over the guards and health service should have the power and duty to deliver the child to the non custodial Dad forthwith or take the custodial parent into custody.

Tell me how it would otherwise work?

Did read in the the Family Law reports this time last year of a mother being threatened with jail. Thing was though, it was left to the Dad to enforce, the Judge basically asked him do you want her to go to jail. Most decent minded Dads would say No.

I do agree having had experience of this situation twice over long periods, Guards will not enforce access court orders. It isn't there fault, they don't want to get involved. A couple of Male Guards where helpful and understanding but did tell the Mum their hands where tied.

A Female Guard who was a Single parent was crap.Never rang me back despite 3 phone calls!

K-9 · 19-01-2009 4:37am

craiginireland wrote: »

Holy crap :eek:

On that note, i read about a guy before christmas going to prison becuause he couldnt afford the maintanance. Thats wrong.

I had heard less of this. Jesus, they better cop on or half the prisons will be full of DADS who can't pay crippling amounts in a Recession.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Agreed. Prison is just wrong wrong wrong for enforcement of either maintenance or access.

110% Agree. Something is seriously wrong when this happens. Serious education is needed, on both sides.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Is this your version of the joke "what do you call someone who has never been mugged? A: A liberal."

I am against throwing parents in jail for reasons of access and maintenance, because it doesnt suit the crime. If the state throws a parent in prison then it is the state who is practising parental alienation. Why cant you see that?

Agreed, only in very exceptional circumstances, last resort.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think it would.

In many cases father's do not have suitable accommodation to have thier children stay over in, thankfully the housing authories are starting to give houses to single dads who will have their children coming to stay.

I know of 1 dublin city centre project that runs a day centre where Dads can bring thier kids and spend time with them, play, do homework and cook for them before having to bring them 'home' rather then being a mcdonalds dad.

We should have some where which is a neutral space for the collection of kids where there is a complete break down in communication and family on both sides won't help.

I would not hold my breathe waiting for it happen mind.

That's a fantastic idea. Methinks this new thinking will be jettisoned with the R word. Sad.

Can anybody tell me why Single Dads are considered Single Men and Single Mums are considered parents on the list?

CDfm · 19-01-2009 12:31pm

Seanies32 wrote: »

Did read in the the Family Law reports this time last year of a mother being threatened with jail. Thing was though, it was left to the Dad to enforce, the Judge basically asked him do you want her to go to jail. Most decent minded Dads would say No.

I was never asked that:rolleyes:

metrovelvet · 19-01-2009 12:52pm

cdfm- You do realise that jail also goes for dad's who are late dropping their kids off as they are breaching access orders.

I cant believe you would want to put parents in jail for this. The kids dont have access, the kids dont get maintenance because the parent is in jail doing prison labour for Timberland boots [yes in your beloved California!].

CDfm · 19-01-2009 1:07pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

cdfm- You do realise that jail also goes for dad's who are late dropping their kids off as they are breaching access orders.

I cant believe you would want to put parents in jail for this. The kids dont have access, the kids dont get maintenance because the parent is in jail doing prison labour for Timberland boots [yes in your beloved California!].

Well CA is extreme -thats America.

I believe that parents who persistently flout the law should be jailed and that the courts should have sentencing guidelines for women.

I know of a situation where the Mum refused access over a Summer for spurious reasons and in the months that it took the case to come up was in Australia. The kids being deposited with a relative of hers.THe Dad despite having an order could not enforce access.

For lying in court you should get punished.

lostinnappies · 19-01-2009 4:30pm

If both parents are sane, dont have a criminal record and not selfish back stabbing 2 year olds playing tid for tat, then there should be automatic sharing of custody, one parent shouldnt have to fight to see their children or go through a court system and once maint. is paid on whichever end then there should be automatic rights ... if one parent wants to exclude the other then they should have to prove it at their expense. There should always be one MAIN house that a child should live in to give stabillity.

smelltheglove · 20-01-2009 1:16pm

Can I say firstly I havent read all the comments and I dont post here often but this is close to my heart.

My parents split when I was young and we stayed with my dad, my mam left suddenly and had said she was going to fight for us. We stayed with our dad.

I know that we were raised by the right parent.I know that our father put us first at every possible point, yes we turned his hair white but he always stood by us, he worked hard, he learnt how to make our dinner even if it was burnt chips that we washed down with a pint of milk, he learnt it. After many many shrunken jumpers he also got the hang of washing our clothes, the odd mishap but what can you do. None of us ended up doing drugs, we all finished school, from 3 of us we all had our own houses by 22 and 3 of us have our own happy families now. 1 still too young. We have a relationship with our mother but our dad stood by us. He encouraged us to do what was right for us.

I became a single mother at 21. Unfortunately my childs dad was not too interested. I could have backed down and done nothing about it. We were moving at the time so he would not have known where I was. When it got to that stage I thought, what would I have done without my dad? I then spent the rest of the pregnancy filling my ex in on the stages, the appointments, the movements, even though I got no reply. I called, I texted but I always held contact and asked for him to return contact.

6 years later my little girl has a daddy that loves her and spends time with her whenever he can. We have never had to discuss maintenance problems custody problems, nothing as we work together to give her the best.

It is very disheartening to see the behaviour of some adults and I hear terrible stories on various forums about difficulties people are having about custody etc etc etc.

Do people not realise that it is their childrens lives they are affecting by this? I dont mean just now, but in the future, kids can be messed up, not knowing where to go or who to trust. We were very fortunate that our father taught us such respect. He never argued in front of his and kept his feelings quite seperate from us. He said to me once when I had a big dilemma that although we didnt see it it was a terrible time for him, I never remember seeing him upset, but he went to talk to someone once who said to him, 'Right now you are the bad guy, she is telling them things to ruin you but let her, your children should not hear it and maybe not for a long time, but one day they will look back and appreciate which parent raised them and which parent put them first all the time'. (I'm paraphrasing) I guess you know from my post how that turned out.

I took the experiences I had as a child with me and instead of mourning over issues etc I decided that I'd use them, now I know what not to do! I use the good parts as examples of what works and the bad parts of what doesnt and this is why my daughter has a great relationship with her dad and why I say to every father going through the anxiety of seperation and not knowing what their rights are, 'fight every step of the way, my own childhood is an example of what is possible'. Keep it clean, keep it nice and if your name is blackened dont fight back, kill with kindness.

I know its long but I hope this helps and encourages any of you going through troubles to look up and see some light, and even anyone who is fighting openly to realise you need to hold your tongue because one day your children will remember and hold no respect for you at all.

CDfm · 20-01-2009 2:55pm

smelltheglove wrote: »

Can I say firstly I havent read all the comments and I dont post here often but this is close to my heart.

My parents split when I was young and we stayed with my dad, my mam left suddenly and had said she was going to fight for us. We stayed with our dad.

I know that we were raised by the right parent.I know that our father put us first at every possible point/

I became a single mother at 21. .. I texted but I always held contact and asked for him to return contact.

6 years later my little girl has a daddy that loves her and spends time with her whenever he can. We have never had to discuss maintenance problems custody problems, nothing as we work together to give her the best.

I took the experiences I had as a child with me and instead of mourning over issues etc I decided that I'd use them, now I know what not to do! I use the good parts as examples of what works and the bad parts of what doesnt and this is why my daughter has a great relationship with her dad and why I say to every father going through the anxiety of seperation and not knowing what their rights are, 'fight every step of the way, my own childhood is an example of what is possible'. Keep it clean, keep it nice and if your name is blackened dont fight back, kill with kindness.

Your Dad sounds like one cool guy :cool:

And you are an example to lots of people yourself.

I have a 15 yo daughter and 18 yo son and we really are so close now but its been tough to get to that.

Its cool being a Dad.

A DAD IS FOR LIFE NOT JUST FOR CHRISTMAS

lostinnappies · 21-01-2009 2:31pm

I think smelly glove said it all. Very clear, concise, heart felt and completly right. Hats off to you.

CDfm · 25-01-2009 7:20pm

I feel really sorry for a man in this situation.

Child abduction and breach of custody orders is ignored in Ireland.

I have yet to come accross a man who has managed to enforce a court order.

Some years back an African American had tracked his ex and child to Ireland and it appeared that she had been tipped off and fled the country to the UK with assistance. It should be an offence to withold information in child abduction cases and they should be treated like a proper criminal procedure and publicity.

suzieb · 04-02-2009 11:04pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

He needs to get his backside into a court then. She is bang out of order!

This does not always work! My partner went to court year and half ago as mother stopped him seeing son for 6 months when she found out he had a girlfriend.
He went to court to regulate access and the judge decided that he could take child few days a week but no overnights as child was only young even though dad had lived with him for first year of his life and knew how to look after his own son, but they would review it in a year(when child was 2 and half).

Son is 3 and half now and things going great access wise-he has never cancelled a day to see him as loves being around him but only time he gets to take him overnight is if mother is going out and needs a babysitter-she tells him this is only way he can stay cos she misses him too much to let it be a weekly thing-does she not realise how dad feels?

I think its terribly unfair on both child and dad not to have much bonding time as they are always on the clock trying to time the daily visits as we live an hours drive away and only has son for 7 hours a day when has him so constantly trying to do some things with son,cook and feed him dinner and then get back on bus in rush hour traffic to make it back at his set time.
We have a lovely room for son here too and he loves having his own room and his own little space but its very rarely used!

Think the court were very unfair at time saying they would review it again in a year as that would mean partner having to go back to court to request overnights again but when things are finally on good terms with partner and his ex he doesnt want to rock the boat and cause problems,IMO the courts should have a follow up scheme maybe 6 months after to see if any changes can be made as i'm sure plenty of men in similar situation and dont want to cause hassle with the mother-who holds all the rights.

Separated fathers in Ireland have absolutely no rights and I hope things change in the future as its to the childs detriment not to have a good father in their life.

equal rights for fathers??

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