equal rights for fathers??

CDfm

suzieb wrote: »

This does not always work!

Separated fathers in Ireland have absolutely no rights and I hope things change in the future as its to the childs detriment not to have a good father in their life.

You have to be prepared for court and guys dont prepare and instruct solicitors correctly

www.parentalequality.ie has good info on it

peckamsprings

sassa wrote: »

This stems from a conversation i have had manys a drunken night with friends I think that when a couple separates that a father should have the same rights as the mother. shockingly a lot of my friends disagree saying that newly single fellas would be more worried about getting back "out there" than looking after their child. Whick also raises another point of why should fathers only get to see their kids on weekends? which is what most women expect them to agree to?

I could write a book on this. I split with my ex 4 years ago, and at first, he didnt really see the children. Maybe 5 minutes here and there. My son was 3 1/2 at the time and my daughter was 14 weeks old. It really affected my son, who 6 mths later was sitting on the sittingroom floor crying, said "mammy, could you not just say sorry and cook something nice and then daddy might come back". He didn't want to know until then and then wanted to take them becuse they were both were out of nappies, now he has them every tuesday, thursday night and every second weekend. I think that every child should know their father. Four years later they love him every bit as me.

CDfm

peckamsprings wrote: »

I could write a book on this. I split with my ex 4 years ago, and at first, he didnt really see the children. Maybe 5 minutes here and there. My son was 3 1/2 at the time and my daughter was 14 weeks old. It really affected my son, who 6 mths later was sitting on the sittingroom floor crying, said "mammy, could you not just say sorry and cook something nice and then daddy might come back". He didn't want to know until then and then wanted to take them becuse they were both were out of nappies, now he has them every tuesday, thursday night and every second weekend. I think that every child should know their father. Four years later they love him every bit as me.

So from a practical point of view where was he to bring them -you had the family home. The courts have an inherent bias towards women and guys simply are left finding temperory accomadation and trying to fit in access around work. So its not always possible to do as you have other obligatiions such as financial etc to meet.So yor ex now has the resourses to avail of access.

Working abroad at the time ,I used to fly to Ireland for access to get access from the UK and the courts would not enforce their own orders. Do you think I would get compensation -no.

Superdaddy

suzieb wrote: »

This does not always work! My partner went to court year and half ago as mother stopped him seeing son for 6 months when she found out he had a girlfriend.
He went to court to regulate access and the judge decided that he could take child few days a week but no overnights as child was only young even though dad had lived with him for first year of his life and knew how to look after his own son, but they would review it in a year(when child was 2 and half).

Son is 3 and half now and things going great access wise-he has never cancelled a day to see him as loves being around him but only time he gets to take him overnight is if mother is going out and needs a babysitter-she tells him this is only way he can stay cos she misses him too much to let it be a weekly thing-does she not realise how dad feels?

I think its terribly unfair on both child and dad not to have much bonding time as they are always on the clock trying to time the daily visits as we live an hours drive away and only has son for 7 hours a day when has him so constantly trying to do some things with son,cook and feed him dinner and then get back on bus in rush hour traffic to make it back at his set time.
We have a lovely room for son here too and he loves having his own room and his own little space but its very rarely used!

Think the court were very unfair at time saying they would review it again in a year as that would mean partner having to go back to court to request overnights again but when things are finally on good terms with partner and his ex he doesnt want to rock the boat and cause problems,IMO the courts should have a follow up scheme maybe 6 months after to see if any changes can be made as i'm sure plenty of men in similar situation and dont want to cause hassle with the mother-who holds all the rights.

Separated fathers in Ireland have absolutely no rights and I hope things change in the future as its to the childs detriment not to have a good father in their life.

Separated/ unmarried fathers have no rights but they can sure as hell fight for them. He is taking the easy option, things are not ok between them now:rolleyes:, she is using him as a babysitter,:mad: he is not a babysitter he is the childs fateher, he should fight for joint custody and never give up the fight till his child gets to have a real daddy. This is another jealous selfish mother trying to hurt the man that she believes abandoned her by using her child as a weapon, she is hurting him which is very obvious but she is also hurting the child. If he doesn't like what the judge gave him then appeal or look for a judical review. Get a proper solicitor!! I am in similar situation but far worse, but i am fighting and will fight till i succeed or there is no higher courts left, but i will have a monster file in 10-15 years time to show my son how i fought to be his daddy and that i never abandoned him.

CDfm wrote: »

You have to be prepared for court and guys dont prepare and instruct solicitors correctly

www.parentalequality.ie has good info on it

+1 but there are many others and use them all to get what is right for the child. To be a separated father you have to fight and learn the rules and tricks of fighting to be a Dad.

peckamsprings wrote: »

I could write a book on this. I split with my ex 4 years ago, and at first, he didnt really see the children. Maybe 5 minutes here and there. My son was 3 1/2 at the time and my daughter was 14 weeks old. It really affected my son, who 6 mths later was sitting on the sittingroom floor crying, said "mammy, could you not just say sorry and cook something nice and then daddy might come back". He didn't want to know until then and then wanted to take them becuse they were both were out of nappies, now he has them every tuesday, thursday night and every second weekend. I think that every child should know their father. Four years later they love him every bit as me.

I'm glad things have worked out for this man and that you have been reasonable with him. But i support the sentiments below, it is a very difficult first year when you have to leave the family home and set up from scratch again. Go the whole hog now and give this wonderful father equal rights to yours, it is fully within your power, give him joint custody by court order if you haven't done so already.

CDfm wrote: »

So from a practical point of view where was he to bring them -you had the family home. The courts have an inherent bias towards women and guys simply are left finding temperory accomadation and trying to fit in access around work. So its not always possible to do as you have other obligatiions such as financial etc to meet.So yor ex now has the resourses to avail of access.

Working abroad at the time ,I used to fly to Ireland for access to get access from the UK and the courts would not enforce their own orders. Do you think I would get compensation -no.

I spent 5 hours and 500 euro on a plane this week and 3 days in a foreign country where i can't speak the language to see my son for 3 hours and i could only take him to McDonalds , I know where you are coming from!!:mad:

dollyk

i separated from my partner six years ago, he allways had the same rights as me, the kids were 6 and ten and we allowed them to decide who they were spending xmas with, i moved in the meantime and my 15 year old daughter decided to stay with dad, for school friends etc, WELL MY FAMILY DISOWNED ME :eek::eek::eek:, really you would think i abandoned her, she come up most weekrnds and whenever school is finished early, shes well adjusted, so i cant see that i done anything wrong...

K-9

dollyk wrote: »

i separated from my partner six years ago, he allways had the same rights as me, the kids were 6 and ten and we allowed them to decide who they were spending xmas with, i moved in the meantime and my 15 year old daughter decided to stay with dad, for school friends etc, WELL MY FAMILY DISOWNED ME :eek::eek::eek:, really you would think i abandoned her, she come up most weekrnds and whenever school is finished early, shes well adjusted, so i cant see that i done anything wrong...

That's the attitude that's out there.

Superdaddy

dollyk wrote: »

i separated from my partner six years ago, he allways had the same rights as me, the kids were 6 and ten and we allowed them to decide who they were spending xmas with, i moved in the meantime and my 15 year old daughter decided to stay with dad, for school friends etc, WELL MY FAMILY DISOWNED ME :eek::eek::eek:, really you would think i abandoned her, she come up most weekrnds and whenever school is finished early, shes well adjusted, so i cant see that i done anything wrong...

Wish i had you for an ex:).

craiginireland

Superdaddy wrote: »

Wish i had you for an ex:).

+1

craiginireland

It really boggles me (is that a real word?) To see the lenght some women go to to use their child as a weapon to hurt their ex. Not just in my case but i've seen it elsewhere.
I'm glad my child was too small to remember what was going on with his mother and I and courts etc. He was 3 months old maybe 4 at the 1st one. It's not right and even tho I've won all the court cases so far I've never missed maintanance or access she's still intent to go to court to get at me. Men can be gits too but women see it as a vicious game

Superdaddy

craiginireland wrote: »

It really boggles me (is that a real word?) To see the lenght some women go to to use their child as a weapon to hurt their ex. Not just in my case but i've seen it elsewhere.
I'm glad my child was too small to remember what was going on with his mother and I and courts etc. He was 3 months old maybe 4 at the 1st one. It's not right and even tho I've won all the court cases so far I've never missed maintanance or access she's still intent to go to court to get at me. Men can be gits too but women see it as a vicious game

Yes some men can be assholes and abandon their children but that is no excuse for the way the rest of us are treated by the law and women. Hell has no fury like a woman scourned:( or at least i think thats how that saying goes. My little fella tells me how much he loves me and misses me and that he wants to go home with me in front of her when i visit or ring him. How she can watch her child beg to be with his Daddy is beyond me!! It is heart breaking!!!:( Her reply is always well you left us:mad:. She is always trying to turn my son against me.
I never left my son for a milli-second, i left his mother:mad: The physco bit#h:mad: It is nothing short of child abuse what these so called responsible guardians are doing.

CDfm

Superdaddy wrote: »

+1 but there are many others and use them all to get what is right for the child. To be a separated father you have to fight and learn the rules and tricks of fighting to be a Dad.

Dont be bitter - many of these organisations were started by and are supported by women. Probably women like dollyk.

Maybe you should post a list of the organisations you found gave you good and practical help.

Its important to enforce the rights that you do have and use it. I had a great woman judge who unravelled a lot of my case and I also had another judge who would enforce. So its not all bad news once you get a handle on it and learn how to engage in the system properly.

Superdaddy

CDfm wrote: »

Dont be bitter - many of these organisations were started by and are supported by women. Probably women like dollyk.

Maybe you should post a list of the organisations you found gave you good and practical help.

Its important to enforce the rights that you do have and use it. I had a great woman judge who unravelled a lot of my case and I also had another judge who would enforce. So its not all bad news once you get a handle on it and learn how to engage in the system properly.

Don't get me wrong, i love women, I even have one of my own:D;) Alot of women have been very supportive of me fighting for my son. I do get very bitter about women who abuse their station, especially the one pretending to be a mother to my son.
As for judges and solicitors, I have been very unlucky with both but the tide has turned now i hope and things are looking up. District court and Circuit court Judges are not trained in family law and can do alot of damage. But your greatest danger is waster solicitors, they will do the greatest damage to your case.

To be honest i never found the organisations much use when it comes to fighting for you, too caught up in politics and fund raising, but i met several people through the organisations that have helped me greatly. It's a long difficult path, my advice is to talk to as many people as possible and pick the bits that suit your needs. You can get stuck into the politics and fund raising after you secure your childs future. To get people to help you, do not rely on emails as contact, track them down, meet face to face or at least on the phone. Read every bit of literature you can find on Family law. Find a family law specialist solicitor.
PM me for details if anybody wants one.

CDfm

Superdaddy wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, i love women, I even have one of my own:D;) Alot of women have been very supportive of me fighting for my son. I do get very bitter about women who abuse their station, especially the one pretending to be a mother to my son.
As for judges and solicitors, I have been very unlucky with both but the tide has turned now i hope and things are looking up. District court and Circuit court Judges are not trained in family law and can do alot of damage. But your greatest danger is waster solicitors, they will do the greatest damage to your case.

To be honest i never found the organisations much use when it comes to fighting for you, too caught up in politics and fund raising, but i met several people through the organisations that have helped me greatly. It's a long difficult path, my advice is to talk to as many people as possible and pick the bits that suit your needs.

Thats true - i used them all and found them great. Anyone fighting a case is better off staying away from politics.

But the meetings these guys do gives you confidence to go and instruct. The www.amen.ie ones on tuesdays are on the ball.They are run by an ex woman guard who also does court accompanyment.And if she cant show you the right way no one can.

Im just posting to say it can be done if you are consistant and and persevere.

MLE

I agree with equal rights in theory.

But I do also find that its a bit of ' you want what you haven't got'

What I'm saying is I would like equal parenting in parents who stay together aswell because from my personal experience --- and don't get me wrong, my hubby is better than most--- I find that the woman does most of the parentting!

CDfm

MLE wrote: »

I agree with equal rights in theory.

But I do also find that its a bit of ' you want what you haven't got'

What I'm saying is I would like equal parenting in parents who stay together aswell because from my personal experience --- and don't get me wrong, my hubby is better than most--- I find that the woman does most of the parentting!

Lots of guys do jobs they dont like because thats where they earn the most money to raise families. Binmen, draincleaners and the like. Thats parenting and I dont see any women in those professions.

Women who can take career breaks and there is one salary coming in. Thats parenting. Earning money to allow that is parenting too.

I spent the week taking my 15 yo daughter to work experience and sorting out problems with this and that.She expects that -its my job. My son needed stuff - revision guides-for school exams last Sunday and I turned the car around and got them. My job. I might miss the odd parent teacher meeting but I like to think I do the less glamourous side of being a parent.

Superdaddy

My brother has a young baby at the moment, he works from 7am-8pm, 6 days a week. He lives with his partner who is a stay at home mom, he still gets up in the middle of the night for feeds as much as she does. She always plays up the wreaked mom look, she totally takes advantage of my brother, he never leaves the babies side when he is not working. In this case my brother is doing the lions share of the parenting, but she will get all the credit because she is the stay at home mom, who doesn't even have time to put on her makeup anymore.:rolleyes:

There are assholes out there and i know a few who are happy to leave it all to the mom. I know one stay at home dad, his partner goes to work from 7am -6pm but as soon as she walks in the door in the evening he walks out. He always has an excuse. She then cooks dinner and looks after the kids for the rest of the evening.
It is the asshole dads that make it difficult for the good dads, we all get painted with the one brush. We are all treated as "deadbeat dads" and given no rights to our children. When a women is a bad mom it doesn't seem to have the same effect and it is not possible for her to lose her rights.

We should all have equal rights. Then if either the mother or father turn out to be a bad parent there is another parent there with equal rights to look after the child. It is in the best interest of the child to have two people looking after it, that way there is a backup system to protect the child from a bad parent. And aside from that there is a saying, "two heads are better than one", especially when deciding the future of a child.

I know of an unmarried man who is fighting to get custody of his child from his heroin junkie ex who refuses to let him have any part in the childs life. The child is living in appalling conditions but the courts to date have not taken the child from the mother even though this man is a fine father and has a secure environment for his child. He has spent a small fortune fighting and will spend alot more. This is simply wrong and the law is an ass in this situation. Equal rights would prevent this bullsh1t.

dedub

As a father i have been told my rights to access and givin them by the courts. But my ex partner has left our home with our daughter since then.
It`s gone from me putting my daughter asleep almost every night for the
past 5yrs to us not seeing each other for a whole week. What rights does
my daughter have when it comes to her wanting to see her Dad?

CDfm

dedub wrote: »

As a father i have been told my rights to access and givin them by the courts. But my ex partner has left our home with our daughter since then.
It`s gone from me putting my daughter asleep almost every night for the
past 5yrs to us not seeing each other for a whole week. What rights does
my daughter have when it comes to her wanting to see her Dad?

Well its up to you to enforce your rights or they will be harder to enforce.

BTW its responsibilties you have not rights and thats meant in a nice way - as you should be invoved if you are halfway decent.

Go to court and get the Court Orders updated and enforced.

craiginireland

dedub wrote: »

As a father i have been told my rights to access and givin them by the courts. But my ex partner has left our home with our daughter since then.

Did you go to court whilst still with mum?

dedub

Thanks for the response, and i know yer only hearing half of one side of the story but believe me when i say that my daughter comes first. I`m lucky that both my parents are still devoted to each other so i can only begin to imagine how difficult it must be for my daughter to see her mammy and daddy apart. I was recently awarded a safety order against her mother for assaulting me in front of my daughter which is why she moved out. As you can see by the time of this post I`m not gettin much sleep. Poeple keep reminding me how "resiliant" kids can be, but i`m sure if they could express themselves like adults can then people would take a different view. When i applied for guardianship my ex applied for maintainence then i was advised to apply for access even though we still lived together. Now my ex tells me that the access i have is all i`m gettin even though "further access to be agreed by both parents" is on the court order. So its another day in court all because she`s not willing to talk. The relationship just broke down, there was no third party involved as far as i know yet she is a very bitter person.

CDfm

With people who abuse both men and women in their minds they do no wrong. Lots of people get into cycles of abuse and mutual violence & you havent done that.

The Courts are actually quite good in your position and they should not be used as a weapon & contrary to what most people see its not about whose right or wrong.

In my situation once I got used to it - eventually- I was lucky to get before a judge (a woman) who put some real order into my case.(enough about me) The reason I am putting that in is that once you take the emotions out of it and who said what to whom -its all about getting your rights enforced. So you need to get goodwill from your judge and if you are applying for sole or joint custody well you need to demonstrate that you are capable and well adjusted.

Thats not to say the Courts dont have a female bias because they do- but that is decreasing.Who knows -you got your safety order and that sort of vindicates you. Now you need a life!!!

So best of luck.

Joey the lips

I have believed the reason fathers have been givin no rights is because for to long they shunned their responsabilities. I think as fathers we brought it upon ourselves. Now we need a lot of work to correct this.

My first big issue is out of wedlock children. Unless a fathers name is on the birthcert he has no rights and in children out of wedlock the mother is given the oppertunity to state who the father is. I think equally the father should be given a period of time(Say 6 months) to go in and declare himself the father

My second biggest problem is vistation rights. A father has to apply for his and a mother can chellange this. A father is assesed as to his suitability of being a father but a mother is not assessed to her suitability

Just deserts: A father is expected to pay maintenance on a child fine. But what if the father is not in a position to do this. Bear in mind what my second problem was. For a father to be deemed acceptable for visitation rights he really needs his own place. How in the name of god is a father expected to provide 2 places when he could bearly pay for one these days


My last big grip is fathers and men in general. Women argue for their rights If a women without children see's a women with children being mistreated by the system she will possibly consider "that could be me some day" but men! if men dont have kids they dont give a dam! its because of this failing men will continue to be in a minority on this issue.

Just for the record I am not bitter and I am not going through this but 2 of my mates have and I think the fathers rights situation is terriable. Dont believe me? The politicians and councillors will knock on your door soon. Ask them what they are doing for womens rights. They will spout loads about equality. Ask them what they know about mens rights ehhhhhh! is it that time already!

CDfm

Joey -its time you bring your mates on tour of the constituency offices of the public representatives to get them on housing lists.FTW.;)

Establish everything they can apply for and get these lazy politicians working.

Superdaddy

dedub wrote: »

Thanks for the response, and i know yer only hearing half of one side of the story but believe me when i say that my daughter comes first. I`m lucky that both my parents are still devoted to each other so i can only begin to imagine how difficult it must be for my daughter to see her mammy and daddy apart. I was recently awarded a safety order against her mother for assaulting me in front of my daughter which is why she moved out. As you can see by the time of this post I`m not gettin much sleep. Poeple keep reminding me how "resiliant" kids can be, but i`m sure if they could express themselves like adults can then people would take a different view. When i applied for guardianship my ex applied for maintainence then i was advised to apply for access even though we still lived together. Now my ex tells me that the access i have is all i`m gettin even though "further access to be agreed by both parents" is on the court order. So its another day in court all because she`s not willing to talk. The relationship just broke down, there was no third party involved as far as i know yet she is a very bitter person.

I feel for you lad, I'm in the courts fighting for custody myself at the moment. You have taken all the right steps so far and fair play to you. Get custody of your child and then you can do what is best for your child and ensure that she spends time with both her mammy and daddy. When a women uses her child as a weapon then she does not deserve to be the childs primary carer. Best of luck to you and your daughter in court, I hope you meet the right judge and that you have found a good legal team.

K-9

Joey the lips wrote: »

My first big issue is out of wedlock children. Unless a fathers name is on the birthcert he has no rights and in children out of wedlock the mother is given the oppertunity to state who the father is.

Name on birth cert means zilch.

A father can get his name on the birth cert by court order and without the mothers agreement. However, it's a cart before the horse scenario!

When a Mother gets a maintenance order, that is an admittance of paternity and that by itself, can be used to put the Dads name on the Cert.
If the Dad gets an Access/Guardianship order, the same applies.

Basically, you need to admit paternity first before getting the name on the cert.

Joey the lips

K-9 wrote: »

Name on birth cert means zilch.

A father can get his name on the birth cert by court order and without the mothers agreement. However, it's a cart before the horse scenario!

When a Mother gets a maintenance order, that is an admittance of paternity and that by itself, can be used to put the Dads name on the Cert.
If the Dad gets an Access/Guardianship order, the same applies.

Basically, you need to admit paternity first before getting the name on the cert.

I agree with you its not ment in the lit sense. I know the name on the birth cert means nothing but it a start as it an acknowledgement of who the fater is. I come from a working class are so "generally" mothers dont claim maintenance orders until the social welfare have given them all they are entitled to. This can take between 3 -5 years which means you have not seen your child in the crucial bonding years.

So my experience has been fathers generally have no problems admiting paternity, Its mothers allowing this,

CDfm

Joey the lips wrote: »

I agree with you its not ment in the lit sense. I know the name on the birth cert means nothing but it a start as it an acknowledgement of who the fater is. I come from a working class are so "generally" mothers dont claim maintenance orders until the social welfare have given them all they are entitled to. This can take between 3 -5 years which means you have not seen your child in the crucial bonding years.

So my experience has been fathers generally have no problems admiting paternity, Its mothers allowing this,

thats an amazing insight -i had never thought of that.

Klingon Hamlet

Myself and my ex broke up mere weeks after the birth of our son. It was horrible for both of us but we both swore that nothing between us would ever affect the love and caring that he deserved from both of us.

HA!

Then, a mere 2 weeks afterwards, she sat me down and told me that I would never see him again. I told her I would take her to court if I had to, but that it shouldn't come to that.

It did.

I got access. I was offered the opportunity to apply for guardianship. Foolishly, I politely declined. I told the judge I'd rather myself and the mother agree to guardianship voluntarily, before a commissioner for oaths. The judge gave her 6 months to consider, then told me to reapply if she didn't agree within that time period.

The 6 months were up in May. The b!tch disappeared to UK with my beautiful boy February. No notice given, just a text.

I haven't seen him since.

I've been warned that she may not appear at court. She's already missed a court date. She's risking abench warrant for her arrest. She. She. She.

She.

Where's my boy's rights in all of this? He's 1 in April. He's gorgeous. I cry thinking about him. I miss him terribly.

I've applied for joint custody, joint guardianship, and variation of access. No more Mr Nice Guy. I'm not fighting to hurt her, although she probably deserves to be at least a little upset, but that's besides the point, completely irrelevant.

All that matters is Our Boy.

He deserves the love of his parents, and his grandparents on my side. I'm going to fight for that.

Here's my question: why does marital status rule whether I'm a guardian? If I married my ex, I'd be a guardian. I could be an abusive alcoholic, but I'd be a guardian without having to sign a bloody thing.

Yet here I am, single, weary, traumatised, missing my boy. And because of my marital status, I have to battle to be in my son's life. To be his father.

To ever see him again.

It's beyond barbaric. It's obtuse and callous. It's not in his best interests. It's in the state's. Maintenance orders are prioritised and maximised, to relieve social welfare repayments (even though some mothers lie out of necessity or greed about how much child support they get, in order to up their payments as much as possible). Access and custody, however, are a huge hurdle to overcome. The judges are sympathetic but slow to act upon mothers' indiscretions.

Bench warrants are common but rarely acted upon. I've used the Hague Convention in EU International Child Abduction Law to enforce my rights to locate my boy. I've pushed through the slow Irish legislation and taken full advantage of European legal sensibilities.

But I know alot of fathers who are less knowledgeable than I, perhaps more afraid to push too hard for their children's rights.

USPI are a great organisation. I highly recommend them.

The last week in April: that's my next court date. If she shows.

If she doesn't, well, I'm at a loss. My boy is everything. Without him, I am nothing.

CDfm

what can i say KH. If she doesn't show up insist that the Court issues the warrant and ask them to enforce it.

My sympathies and there are lots of decent women out there in the same way there are awful guys who dont love their kids.

Klingon Hamlet

CDfm wrote: »

what can i say KH. If she doesn't show up insist that the Court issues the warrant and ask them to enforce it.

My sympathies and there are lots of decent women out there in the same way there are awful guys who dont love their kids.

This "in camera" setup in the courts---no recording of what's said inside that room--means there's no foolproof way of proving to our politicians what a sham the court system is when it comes to family law. Barristers lie through their teeth but the judges merely smile and nod.

I ope my previous post does not seem anti-mother or mysogynistic in any way. I am angry obviously, furious, but not with mothers in general. I know many who bring their children up despite the odds and despite the negligent fathers.

But I also know that the gaping gaps in our systems allow many to take advantage of social welfare and of the court's laczy approach to reforming family life.

Why don't social welfare and the court comminicate? They don't. AT ALL. There is no co-operation. They are completely seperate entities and they ignore each other's processes. Without some form of liaison between the two, money-hungry mothers and negligent fathers will continue to roam free and children will be worse off for it.

Shame on our government. And on the sh!ts out there hurting their children. Shame on them.