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Can deaf people "hear" themselves think?

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    #92
    anplaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭anplaya


    Susannahmia wrote: »
    But when you think do you think in images of english text or maybe pictures, signs or "inner sounds"?:confused: I mean when I think my brain doesn't probably think in words exactly but I interpret or give meaning to my thoughts mostly in "sounds" and some images. My subconscious is like an inner voice. I don't think anyone is implying that deaf people cannot think, its just interesting to think about how they "interface" with their thoughts differently to hearing people.[/quote
    "

    well i can safely say to you we think,feel etc the same way as normal hearing' people do. i repeat have ya never met any deaf people any of ye?im surprised this thread hasnt already been locked what with some of the comments being made here


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    #93
    The Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭The Paws


    I agree with anplaya, some of the comments were unreal and hurtful and I hope people who wrote here will just cop on abit.
    Meet the deafies first - then you know that some can hear at different levels, many can read and write (again at different levels just like hearing people). Many can talk and or mouthing the words clearly etc.. oh yeah another thing - please please please dont call a deaf person with some speech impairments as "deaf and dumb". It is a big no no to call them that. Use the term "deaf and mute" instead. a couple of them have degrees (level 7 and 8) and a few have Phds.....

    Any questions?


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    #94
    Twinkle-star15
    Registered Users Posts: 392 ✭✭Twinkle-star15


    Tragamin2k2 wrote: »
    I NEVER got this. It doesent clear my mind at all it just annoys me because YES IT DOES make a sound. Just because nobody heard it does not mean its not a sound. A sound is a sound wether someone hears it or not :confused::confused::confused:

    Prove it.

    ...and there's your emptiness :P.


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    #95
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    The Paws wrote: »
    I agree with anplaya, some of the comments were unreal and hurtful and I hope people who wrote here will just cop on abit.
    Meet the deafies first - then you know that some can hear at different levels, many can read and write (again at different levels just like hearing people). Many can talk and or mouthing the words clearly etc.. oh yeah another thing - please please please dont call a deaf person with some speech impairments as "deaf and dumb". It is a big no no to call them that. Use the term "deaf and mute" instead. a couple of them have degrees (level 7 and 8) and a few have Phds.....

    Any questions?

    Again I think some people are missing the point of the question. Nobody thinks deaf people are stupid or cannot read and write.

    The question is about your "mind's ear". I can imagine/remember a sound in my head and it's almost like actually hearing it. Never having experienced actual hearing, the question is can deaf people "hear" things in their head in the same way?

    It's probably only answerable by someone completely deaf from birth who suddenly becomes able to hear.


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    #96
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    If you're deaf from birth, how would you be familiar with words, and thus, how would you think? Fair question surely...
    In his novel Nineteen Eighty Four, George Orwell wrote about a fictional government that is so power-hungry it cannot even tolerate people thinking anti government thoughts of the vaguest nature, so it sets about erasing language, creating a new form of very threadbare English (Newspeak) in order to prevent people from having the vocabulary to think subversive thoughts.

    And if you're blind from birth, how would you be familiar with colour?
    Get In There wrote: »
    wow u people are really stupid
    And you're super-duper intelligent with such an insightful and interesting comment directed at nobody specific. ;)


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    #97
    deco05ie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭deco05ie


    Dudess wrote: »
    If you're deaf from birth, how would you be familiar with words, and thus, how would you think? Fair question surely...
    In his novel Nineteen Eighty Four, George Orwell wrote about a fictional government that is so power-hungry it cannot even tolerate people thinking anti government thoughts of the vaguest nature, so it sets about erasing language, creating a new form of very threadbare English (Newspeak) in order to prevent people from having the vocabulary to think subversive thoughts.

    And if you're blind from birth, how would you be familiar with colour?

    And you're super-duper intelligent with such an insightful and interesting comment directed at nobody specific. ;)
    You don't need language to think. Its just easier for us to keep track of our thoughts if there in words

    Baby's obviously still think since there able to solve problems and learn so why is it hard for anyone to understand that a deaf person could also think?


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    #98
    The Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭The Paws


    deco05ie: woohoo at last someone here got it right.

    Dudess: If you are a deaf person reading that...how you feel..?
    Do them a favour by having a really hard think about it before you type up these questions.
    Of course they can think!! Even a stupid person can think. What about you?


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    #99
    Jeanious
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Jeanious


    deco05ie wrote: »
    You don't need language to think. Its just easier for us to keep track of our thoughts if there in words

    Baby's obviously still think since there able to solve problems and learn so why is it hard for anyone to understand that a deaf person could also think?

    Who ever said that deaf people cant think?! ffs thats ridiculous. If i can make so bold as to speak for most people on this thread, what people are tryin to ask is, HOW does a completely deaf person since birth think, i.e "in what way do they think?"

    Speakin only for myself, I think in sounds and words, ie sounds that I can "hear" in my head, and in pictures that i can "see". This would be stuff that ive seen/heard and can remember, i.e my car, my street, my own voice, someone elses voice, a song,a noise etc.

    So the question is, if a fully deaf or blind person has never seen/heard any of that stuff, what way do they think? If a blind person has never seen, how do his dreams work (e.g. are they mainly sound-based etc?)


    Disclaimer:
    1. There's absolutely no malice or condescention behind the question
    2. I fully understand that deaf or blind people can learn languages as well, if not better that sighted/hearing people
    3. I understand that deaf people can learn to read like anyone else, i'm not focking stupid like.


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    #100
    deco05ie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭deco05ie


    coyle wrote: »
    Who ever said that deaf people cant think?! ffs thats ridiculous. If i can make so bold as to speak for most people on this thread, what people are tryin to ask is, HOW does a completely deaf person since birth think, i.e "in what way do they think?"

    Speakin only for myself, I think in sounds and words, ie sounds that I can "hear" in my head, and in pictures that i can "see". This would be stuff that ive seen/heard and can remember, i.e my car, my street, my own voice, someone elses voice, a song,a noise etc.

    So the question is, if a fully deaf or blind person has never seen/heard any of that stuff, what way do they think? If a blind person has never seen, how do his dreams work (e.g. are they mainly sound-based etc?)


    Disclaimer:
    1. There's absolutely no malice or condescention behind the question
    2. I fully understand that deaf or blind people can learn languages as well, if not better that sighted/hearing people
    3. I understand that deaf people can learn to read like anyone else, i'm not focking stupid like.
    Why not just ask, How does anyone think?

    because I don't believe anyone thinks using language thats just how its organized in your head, If you had to use language to think then how would you have been able to learn a language in the first place

    What im trying to say the voice in your head is the result of thought but isn't thought it's self


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    #101
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,517 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    On a side note, hold your breath, close your eyes and root your tongue somewhere in your mouth so that it can't budge. Can you "say" and therefore "hear" yourself "say" in your mind something like, "my name is..."?

    Because i struggle to "speak" in my mind unless my breathing is going along with it or my tongue and mouth move slightly as if i'm going to speak normally. I find it hard to think of the word i'm trying to "say". Am i alone in this?


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    #102
    blubloblu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭blubloblu


    dsmythy wrote: »
    On a side note, hold your breath, close your eyes and root your tongue somewhere in your mouth so that it can't budge. Can you "say" and therefore "hear" yourself "say" in your mind something like, "my name is..."?

    Because i struggle to "speak" in my mind unless my breathing is going along with it or my tongue and mouth move slightly as if i'm going to speak normally. I find it hard to think of the word i'm trying to "say". Am i alone in this?
    I can do the above quite easily. Maybe you're unable to think? :p


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    #103
    nibble
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭nibble


    Lots of people don't seem to be understanding the question, and seem to think it is somehow discriminatory toward deaf people.. What the OP meant was that if somebody were to be born completely deaf and never learned any form of language, what would they use to organise their thought process.. When you are reading, or trying to work out a problem you verbally recite it in your mind and this helps us to logically work through something using an organised language to do it. This is where our intelligance as humans is realised, by the use of sophisticated communication internally and of course externally when communicating with others.

    Now take the deaf person with no language of any kind, how does he organise his thoughts and keep track of a linear mental process? Obviously they can think, but it is more instinctual and subconscious, more like any other animal, and I mean animal in no derogatory way, after all that's what we all are.
    Very intriuging question, straight forward enough to comprehend I would have thought but obviously not...


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    #104
    Miss Tequila
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭Miss Tequila


    I'm deaf, i dont do sign language, i can lip read very well and when i watching TV, i use subtitle- really helpful. :)


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    #105
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    deco05ie wrote: »
    You don't need language to think.
    Exactly - not disputing that. So... how is it done without language? I know it's done, but how?
    Baby's obviously still think since there able to solve problems and learn so why is it hard for anyone to understand that a deaf person could also think?
    Faulty analogy. Babies don't have much to think about, plus those with hearing pick up words from early on... but I'm not saying deaf people can't think anyway so that's besides the point.
    The Paws wrote: »
    Dudess: If you are a deaf person reading that...how you feel..?
    I don't know. Maybe I'd get insulted or maybe I'd read between the lines and conclude that no offence was intended.
    Do them a favour by having a really hard think about it before you type up these questions.
    Of course they can think!!
    Where did I say deaf people can't think? Why look for reasons to feel persecuted when that's not the intention? Obviously deaf people can think - I'm just wondering how it's done without language (and I'm only referring to people who have been deaf since birth) when that's the only way I'd know? What are the alternatives - that's all I'm wondering...
    What about you?
    What about me?

    I'm sorry you feel hurt but I'm not apologising for asking what I think is a reasonable question. I'm actually trying to open my mind and consider how things are for people who don't have something I take for granted...


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    #106
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,517 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    blubloblu wrote: »
    I can do the above quite easily. Maybe you're unable to think? :p

    I fear for me :(

    I guess i'll breathe in future to be able to think.


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    #107
    Jeanious
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Jeanious


    deco05ie wrote: »
    Why not just ask, How does anyone think?

    because I don't believe anyone thinks using language thats just how its organized in your head, If you had to use language to think then how would you have been able to learn a language in the first place

    What im trying to say the voice in your head is the result of thought but isn't thought it's self

    So, if im understandin ya correctly, you reckon hearing people interpret their thoughts verbally, right? So if thats the case, the question im asking is, how do deaf people interpret their thoughts, considering theyve never heard words, and thus can't use the "voice in their heads" so to speak?

    (i.e the question thats been lingering for the last 8 pages without any sort of an answer, but plenty of unfounded accusations!)


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    #108
    tech77
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭tech77


    This is a genuinely interesting question but i fear more heat than light is being generated due to some perceived offence caused.

    So yet again:
    1) We know deaf people can think as well (or better) than hearing people- that's indisputable- IQ, behaviour, communication through signing etc.

    2) What we want to know is: how is that thinking characterised?
    Given that a deaf (from birth) person is presumably unfamiliar with sounds/voices, what (apart from voices) characterises their thought.

    Is it characterised more visually.
    I'm guessing it's a difficult question to answer and it's probably characterised by something (partly) unfamiliar to a hearing person.

    I don't really see how that question is offensive.

    Javaboy's point about how only a person with both experiences could explain it seems as good an answer as any.


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    #109
    The Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭The Paws


    Well…….I say a deaf child might try to copy the way her mother spoke “hello” etc by looking at the mother’s mouth or by touching the mother’s throat to get the feel of the vibrations. In turn, the deaf child (from birth) copies the words just like what they saw so they think the same way as us.

    Perhaps the deaf have their own version of words that they themselves only understand when thinking about something.

    I really don’t know anymore because I say any deaf person couldn’t remember how they think if they don’t have enough words to think.

    I thought thinking is more to do with thoughts so I don’t think sounds come with it???

    I have a question – how a mute person hears themselves think? Do they use other people’s voices to think??

    The Paws.


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    #110
    anplaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭anplaya


    I have a question – how a mute person hears themselves think? Do they use other people’s voices to think??

    The Paws.[/quote]

    ye come up with some crap,course a mute person can think,i know people who are deaf and mute.as i said,youd probably use your subconcious voice ,just the way NORMAL people do.in fairness ye shudnt be really answering questions as ye dont know the first thing about deafness,yet when i answer yer ques ye come back with another stupid idiotic one,i as a deaf person posted my reply about how we think etc,which the answer is again the same as NORMAL people


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    #111
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    anplaya wrote: »
    ye come up with some crap,course a mute person can think
    Sigh... Nobody said they can't. It seems like you're actually choosing to misinterpret posts and get all offended at this stage...


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    #112
    anplaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭anplaya


    dudess?ya know the way ya asked how can we think etc if we dont have a language?well im speaking to you in english and writing in english,which i learnt in school when i was a kid the same way as you did.just cause your deaf dont mean your stupid.nothing wrong with the brain,just the hearing.im deaf meself,n i use both speech and sign language,very rarely use sign,only when i meet other deaf people


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    #113
    Jesus Juice
    Registered Users Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    Get In There wrote: »
    wow u people are really stupid
    Care to Elaborate???


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    #114
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    anplaya wrote: »
    dudess?ya know the way ya asked how can we think etc if we dont have a language?well im speaking to you in english and writing in english,which i learnt in school when i was a kid the same way as you did.
    Are you deaf from birth? The question is being asked in regards to those who are born deaf.
    just cause your deaf dont mean your stupid.nothing wrong with the brain
    Well I'm glad you clarified that because I thought all deaf people were stupid... I'm being sarcastic before you pounce on me.


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    #115
    anplaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭anplaya


    Dudess wrote: »
    Are you deaf from birth? The question is being asked in regards to those who are born deaf.

    Well I'm glad you clarified that because I thought all deaf people were stupid... I'm being sarcastic before you pounce on me.


    ye deaf from birth,wear two hearing aids.


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    #116
    Zangetsu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭Zangetsu


    This is a pretty interesting thread (well... for AH...).

    I always wondered about this myself, I find that I don't always think with words (I'm not deaf btw) but quite often I will think with shapes and colors/patterns. Mostly when problem solving or creating music, words don't really work for me... Its really hard to explain...

    Anyone else in that boat?


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    #117
    The Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭The Paws


    anplaya: I meant a mute person who can hear but cant talk. It has nothing to do with the deaf...Please read!!


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    #118
    anplaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭anplaya


    my apologies The Paws ,ive met people who are mute and not deaf ,they know sign language so they use that to communicate with others .


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    #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Is all sign language universal or are some words different in various languages?

    If you are blind from birth, what would your dreams be represented as - if you have never seen anything at all.


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    #120
    The_B_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 7,868 ✭✭✭The_B_Man


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you are blind from birth, what would your dreams be represented as - if you have never seen anything at all.

    probably relaxing sounds like the ocean and sensations like hot and cold. tho if they're well accustomed to not seeing, they prob have conversations with ppl just using the sounds like as if they're awake.

    imagine it like if we had a 6th sense like being mind readers. how would we dream if we were born with just 5 senses. We'd just dream without it like we're used to.

    so blind people probably dream like they're listenin to the radio, and deaf people probably dream like they have the telly on mute!


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    #121
    The Paws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭The Paws


    I think there is one sign language for all around the world - simple version ones - then you have ISL, BSL etc.

    ISL = Irish Sign Language, BSL = British Sign Language etc.. ISL is different to BSL but not very different...ISL use mostly one hand for lettering where as BSL use two. This is an example.

    The same idea goes to American Sign Language. ..the French, Spanish..... again these are different due to language difference but in a different way. Have a google - type ISL etc!

    Even one is speaking same language eg English from here to the one from America/England/Austriala but it is signed in a different way.

    I hope this is correct!


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