Other life...

I was just reading a thread in the Astronomy & Space forum, and it motivated me to pose this question (I'm not sure about the validity of the claims in that thread - it was meerly a motivation for this question).

If life was discovered, and confirmed to exist, on another planet, - would it greatly affect the validity of all religions, or indeed the very concept of a god? Would it, in your eyes, destroy any chance that might have existed for any religion to be in anyway true? Would it completely confirm, in your mind and in your heart, your stance of being an atheist?

Or, on the other hand, would it give you "hope" that there might be a god? Would it drive you to religion, to God?

For me, personally, it would hammer the final nail into religions metaphorical coffin. I don't see how any world religion (expect perhaps Scientology:pac:) could reconcile it with the accounts of creation, and indeed all other stories and ideas, contained in their holy scripture. To me, it wouldn't matter about the complexity of the life found - it may only be a primitive form of microbe - life is life.

So, what is your opinion on ithis? I think some interesting discussion could emerge from this question (if it hasn't been posted before:pac:).

Tyler MacDurden

I'd imagine the religious response on hearing the news would go something like:

Moment of uncomfortable silence;

Hurried re-interpretation of sacred tomes ("well, when the Bible says God created the world, it really means all worlds and the life thereon.");

Creation of intergalactic evangelism fleet.



Personally, part of my disbelief is the acceptance that we're not bloody special. Why should the recently sentient inhabitants of an insignificant little rock in a unremarkable outer suburb of a middling sized galaxy think they have the hotline to the guy/gal/teapot that created it all?

Húrin

I am a Christian and I think it is likely that intelligent life exists elsewhere. I don't see how it would put any of the main religions on the ropes. AFAIK none of them state that there is no life elsewhere in the universe.

Speaking for the Bible, it is not a text that exists to describe the physical state of the universe. The reason, I think, why it does not mention alien life is that it is none of our business to be divinely told about it.

Zillah

It would cause barely a hiccup I´d imagine. Faith is like a Chinese gymnast, just when you think it has been bent to the point of breaking, it bends some more.


(The alternative metaphor I was considering was a Thai hooker)

AtomicHorror

It's gonna upset J C and Wolfsbane. An ocean of emotes and punctuation as far as the eye can see. Vast blocks of purple formatted scripture quotes... As for me... I'll be drunk in the lobby of some NASA admin building, by parts cheering, demanding to see the genomic data and vomiting in plant pots. It'll be a good day.

For most religious types (aside from the ones unable to grasp abstraction)...they'll probably be as excited as everyone else but I can't see it being a massive issue faith-wise. Like Zillah says, bendy.

The Mad Hatter

I often wondered about this when I was younger, and figured if other planets had a religion similar to Christianity it would validate the whole thing. Then I realised that Christianity hasn't even managed to get more than a part of this planet.

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

Faith is like a Chinese gymnast, just when you think it has been bent to the point of breaking, it bends some more.

Exegesis ftw.

Rev Hellfire

I for one welcome our new methanogen religious overlords...

pH

Dades wrote: »

Exegesis ftw.

2,000 years in the future, serious scholars will ponder - what exactly you meant by that, and how it was originally interpreted by its intended audience.

toiletduck

I don't think it would shift anyones religious beliefs or lack thereof much.

DapperGent

Basically the life on other planets would have been planted there by the same scientists that are part of this evolutionism-ist-ism-tasm conspiracy.

Or some fúcktard would come up with "scientific" proof that life had been brought to Mars on the Viking landers dirty shoes.

I think, like most of you, that the religious would just incorporate it into their belief system; explain it away somehow with some vague passage that can be interpreted an infinite number of ways. But, isn't it just religion having to adapt to science more? It never seems to go the other way around: I've never seen science having to adapt something that religion proposed into it's constructs.

Fanny Cradock

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I think, like most of you, that the religious would just incorporate it into their belief system; explain it away somehow with some vague passage that can be interpreted an infinite number of ways. But, isn't it just religion having to adapt to science more? It never seems to go the other way around: I've never seen science having to adapt something that religion proposed into it's constructs.

Lets be clear that this Martian discovery isn't a forgone conclusion. But for argument's sake, lets say they happen to dig up a bunch of microbes from below the surface. So what? You presuppose that Christianity will have to do some sort of theological slight of hand to explain this wondrous discovery away. However, you ignore the simple fact that many Christians (certainly non-creationist types) have already accepted the possibility of ET life and moved on from the effects such a discovery would have on their faith - and all this without the type of subtle shuffle you suggest would be required.

Look over on the 'other side' and you will see that Christians have already stated they don't envisage the discovery of methanogens or whatever as being a threat to their faith. No new biblical interpretation is needed on their part.

Goduznt Xzst

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I've never seen science having to adapt something that religion proposed into it's constructs.

It was linked before, but once again it's relevant.



In answer to the OP, I'm sure some religions and sects will disappear if life was found on other planets. But the majority will just find a way of incorporating it into their current belief system.

I guarantee that if life was found, you'd find Christian groups dusting off the ramblings of mad men from the last 2000 years to find a Christian who also believed that there was life in the stars, at which point they'll promptly name him a prophet and use him as another sign that their religion is unfaltering.

I honestly can't think of any one scenario that would stop religions from being believed. Even if we could bring a Christian back from death after their brain had been cryogenically frozen for a decade and that person renounced their faith because they had no recollection of having any post humous existence, you'd find christian groups saying "Oh God removed his memory of heaven/hell so we would still have the test of our faith about death" or "the human mind can't comprehend heaven/hell which is why he can't remember it" or "god looked into the future, seen he would be brought back to earthly life, so never admitted him into heaven"... see how easy it is to make stuff up.

JimiTime

These types of threads give a great insight into the complete lack of understanding some folk have of Christians. You may joke about some silly conspiracy theories about evil evolutionists. However, your conspiracy theories on Christians are equally silly. But hey ho.

JimiTime

JimiTime wrote: »

These types of threads give a great insight into the complete lack of understanding some folk have of Christians. You may joke about some silly conspiracy theories about evil evolutionists. However, your conspiracy theories on Christians are equally silly. But hey ho.

It wasn't posted with intention of being directed at Christianity.

JimiTime

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

It wasn't posted with intention of being directed at Christianity.

Indeed, but it was obviously included in the 'religious types'.

PDN

Tyler MacDurden wrote: »

I'd imagine the religious response on hearing the news would go something like:

Moment of uncomfortable silence;

Hurried re-interpretation of sacred tomes ("well, when the Bible says God created the world, it really means all worlds and the life thereon.");

Creation of intergalactic evangelism fleet.

If that is your imagination then the inside of your mind must be a fascinating place.

In fact there's no uncomfortable silence, just comments such as, "That's interesting." I fail to see why the presence of life on other planets should make anyone uncomfortable, religious or otherwise.

Of course if those alien life forms start bombarding us with their superparticulator ray gun, causing us all to itch terribly, then that would be uncomfortable.

I don't see that any reinterpretation of the Bible would occur at all - unless you've got a special copy of the Bible that has a secret extra verse saying, "Thus saith the Lord, I never made any life on Mars."

studiorat

PDN wrote: »

I don't see that any reinterpretation of the Bible would occur at all - unless you've got a special copy of the Bible that has a secret extra verse saying, "Thus saith the Lord, I never made any life on Mars."

In the same way as you can imagine, What if they have a special copy with an extra verse? "You were wrong all along."

"What?, you didn't see the the serial number and return address printed on the QuarK"?

Fanny Cradock

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Lets be clear that this Martian discovery isn't a forgone conclusion. But for argument's sake, lets say they happen to dig up a bunch of microbes from below the surface.

Oh I know it's not; It'll more than likely turn out to be absolutely nothing. It just motivated me to post this thread.

You presuppose that Christianity will have to do some sort of theological slight of hand to explain this wondrous discovery away. However, you ignore the simple fact that many Christians (certainly non-creationist types) have already accepted the possibility of ET life and moved on from the effects such a discovery would have on their faith - and all this without the type of subtle shuffle you suggest would be required.

But do you not think that it's pushing the idea of a god further and further away? At least the idea of the Judeo-Christian god. I think that religion has to keep making excuses - perhaps it mightn't in this case - but with general progression in science, religion is becoming slowly more, well, for lack of a better word, incorrect.

Look over on the 'other side' and you will see that Christians have already stated they don't envisage the discovery of methanogens or whatever as being a threat to their faith. No new biblical interpretation is needed on their part.

You would imagine that the bible would state such a thing though, wouldn't you? It's such an important topic - you'd imagine God would have mentioned it to some prophet over the last 2 mellenia.

How about this - to progress the debate forward:

What if intelligent life was found on Mars (I know this is completely unplausable; I'm saying this in a purely hypothetical way); and what if this life didn't know anything about Christianity? What would that do for your faith? It should completely irradicate it - but I imagine you'll have some excuse as to why the Martians knew nothing of Christianity.

PDN

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

You would imagine that the bible would state such a thing though, wouldn't you? It's such an important topic - you'd imagine God would have mentioned it to some prophet over the last 2 mellenia.

Methane gas (the same stuff that farts are composed of) found on Mars is something so important that God would have put it into the Bible?

I find it interesting, but I fail to see what that methane gas has to do with my salvation, my marriage, raising my children or any of the other major issues that the Bible addresses. If the Bible were to mention everything of that level of importance then it would be composed of 66,000 books (not 66) and I would have to fit a trailer to the back of my car to haul my Bible to church. Heck! Don't you think there's enough of it for me to study already?

What if intelligent life was found on Mars (I know this is completely unplausable; I'm saying this in a purely hypothetical way); and what if this life didn't know anything about Christianity? What would that do for your faith? It should completely irradicate it - but I imagine you'll have some excuse as to why the Martians knew nothing of Christianity.

Why should that eradicate anyone's faith. I can think of plenty of species of intelligent life on this planet that know nothing about Christianity (eg. elephants, dolphins, octopi). So why should one more species on another planet worry me?

pH

New Sig PDN?

PDN wrote: »

The Intellectual Basis for Atheism:
"god is stupid, it is a good reason. i don't not believeing in god requires any explanation, it pretty bleeding obvious. your an atheist aren't you, don't you think god is stupid. that beleiving in god is stupid i thinks its prefectly good 3 word answer." (seen on the A&A forum)

You do realise how petty and pathetic this makes you look? Why others here continue to indulge you when your sole purpose is to troll this forum is beyond me.

PDN

pH wrote: »

New Sig PDN?

You do realise how petty and pathetic this makes you look? Why others here continue to indulge you when your sole purpose is to troll this forum is beyond me.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion in this thread, or a comment on my post?

If you have a problem with my signature may I suggest http://http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=252965&highlight=sigpo? When I used my old 'butter' signature I was accused of misrepresenting atheists - so this time I have simply quoted verbatim from a regular poster on this forum.

Of course you may report my post and, if a mod who actually sits in the front seat thinks I'm a troll, I will be banned. If that happens I will gladly take it on my chin like a man.

As for your comments on how my sig makes me look to others - we all have our views on how other posters come across. I certainly have my own views on the quality of your posts, what they say about you, and the contribution they make to rational debate. However, in this forum I am a humble poster, rather than a moderator, so I will content myself with participating in the excellent fare of debates and discussions that are arrayed for our enjoyment.

May God bless you, and may you have a wonderful day today.

robindch

pH wrote: »

New Sig PDN?

Not a bad idea, since irony of the previous "people never think" sig must have become intolerable, once, so to speak, the wheels fell off the exegetical bus yesterday!

pH wrote: »

You do realise how petty and pathetic this makes you look?

On the contrary, I think it's a great sig, since it shows quite adequately the level at which religious choose to debate.

And a great day to all!

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Not a bad idea, since irony of the previous "people never think" sig must have become intolerable, once, so to speak, the wheels fell off the exegetical bus yesterday!

As far as your 'bus' is concerned, I think you're confusing it with that London bus that the woman with the big boobies is pushing.

As far as exegesis is concerned, we had a debate where I expressed one point of view (one that is shared by the academic establishment and most Universities) while you shared another point of view (that obviously would have gone down well with the choir on an atheist forum). That's actually what tends to happen on internet discussion boards.

Apparently you've spent so long in the Creationism thread that you've picked up JC's habit of finding his own arguments so convincing that he declares himself to be the winner! I also noticed Wicknight doing the same thing the other day. Maybe it's a mind virus, or even one of those elusive memes? I'm so glad that I rarely if ever bother clicking on that thread these days.

Dades

Personally I find PDN's new sig a tad disingenuous. By all means quote the poster, but don't display it in such as way to make it appear that it reflects the posters in A&A as a group.

But hey, it's free will... I mean world.

Zillah

PDN wrote: »

Of course if those alien life forms start bombarding us with their superparticulator ray gun, causing us all to itch terribly, then that would be uncomfortable.

And some people still think Religion has more to offer than Science!

robindch

PDN wrote: »

we had a debate where I expressed one point of view (one that is shared by the academic establishment and most Universities) while you shared another point of view (that obviously would have gone down well with the choir on an atheist forum).

I refer you to the post I linked to above

You certainly did express one point of view which is shared with the religious departments of many universities -- christian, muslim, indian, jewish etc -- though the exegetical consequences of that point of view are most certainly not shared; rather the opposite in fact. While I shared a point of view which is commonly held by philosophers and/or skeptics.

What was much more interesting was that you consistently misinterpreted my posts, and answered few, if any of my direct questions. I'd certainly like you to try, if you're interested.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

I refer you to the post I linked to above

You certainly did express one point of view which is shared with the religious departments of many universities -- christian, muslim, indian, jewish etc -- though the exegetical consequences of that point of view are most certainly not shared; rather the opposite in fact. While I shared a point of view which is commonly held by philosophers and/or skeptics.

What was much more interesting was that you consistently misinterpreted my posts, and answered few, if any of my direct questions. I'd certainly like you to try, if you're interested.

And the post you link to, like many others, is evidence that you misinterpret my posts (assuming it is not deliberate misrepresentation). I also disagree with your claim above about exegetical consequences. The discussion in question was about whether we can, by doing exegesis, determine whether particular passages of Scripture were intended to be parables or not. I think the religious departments, as well as the history departments, of most Universities (irrespective of religion) would agree that for the most part we can.

If you ask honest questions I will answer them. If you lace them with innuendos and preface them with blatant misrepresentations of my position then I'll give your questions the attention they deserve and ignore them.

However, I would rather do that in the thread concerned, since you seem to want to jump a debate into a different thread for some reason.

If Dades, as mod, wants this to continue in this thread then I will continue to respond. I await his ruling.

PDN

PDN wrote: »

Methane gas (the same stuff that farts are composed of) found on Mars is something so important that God would have put it into the Bible?

Oh PDN, did you even read my post? Or are you deliberately missing the point? I said that the claims from Mars motivated me to ask this question. Did I say anything about it being true? Did I say anything about them finding microbial life? No. I asked whether, in general, if life was found, would it affect your faith.

I find it interesting, but I fail to see what that methane gas has to do with my salvation, my marriage, raising my children or any of the other major issues that the Bible addresses. If the Bible were to mention everything of that level of importance then it would be composed of 66,000 books (not 66) and I would have to fit a trailer to the back of my car to haul my Bible to church. Heck! Don't you think there's enough of it for me to study already?

Why should that eradicate anyone's faith. I can think of plenty of species of intelligent life on this planet that know nothing about Christianity (eg. elephants, dolphins, octopi). So why should one more species on another planet worry me?

You know very well what I meant my intelligent life PDN. I wasn't talking about a load of being simliar to monkeys who are capable of flinging faeces at each other; I don't consider that to be very intelligent. I was talking about life that is equal, or indeed more, intelligent than us.

What if life was found that was greatly more intelligent than us? What if they told you there was no god? Would that rattle your faith?

PDN wrote: »

Do you have anything to add to the discussion in this thread, or a comment on my post?

If you have a problem with my signature may I suggest http://http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=252965&highlight=sigpo? When I used my old 'butter' signature I was accused of misrepresenting atheists - so this time I have simply quoted verbatim from a regular poster on this forum.

Of course you may report my post and, if a mod who actually sits in the front seat thinks I'm a troll, I will be banned. If that happens I will gladly take it on my chin like a man.

As for your comments on how my sig makes me look to others - we all have our views on how other posters come across. I certainly have my own views on the quality of your posts, what they say about you, and the contribution they make to rational debate. However, in this forum I am a humble poster, rather than a moderator, so I will content myself with participating in the excellent fare of debates and discussions that are arrayed for our enjoyment.

May God bless you, and may you have a wonderful day today.

I think it's funny. I really thought you, PDN, of all people would be slightly more grown up than that. But, to be honest, it just makes you lose all integrity.