The demise of the vocative comma

Permabear

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BenjAii

Well, i'll hold my hand up as a grammar criminal. I even had a half-hearted new years resolution to improve on this front.

Clarity of expression is is obviously something to be be valued too, but these things evolve.

While I agree adhering to proper punctuation is a good thing, if people can express their meaning, does it matter that much ?

I would view lack of skill in making coherent logical statements and building arguments from them as far worse and far more serious.

Witness all the people arguing for conspiracy theories and intelligent design and the like convincing themselves, less mind other people, to me that's actually scary.

I'd trade accuracy on comma/apostrophe usage for improvement in that.

The Raven.

Yes, I have noticed this a lot, and I find it irritating.

BenjAii wrote: »

While I agree adhering to proper punctuation is a good thing, if people can express their meaning, does it matter that much ?

The problem is that without proper punctuation, the meaning is often unclear and ambiguous. The worst scenario is the lack of full stops and capital letters. There are some posts that are almost illegible as a result of this. If people are too lazy to abide by these simple rules, then I can't be bothered wasting my time trying to make sense of what they write.

BenjAii wrote: »

I would view lack of skill in making coherent logical statements and building arguments from them as far worse and far more serious.

I would view both faults as unacceptable, apart from the odd spelling mistake or typing error. I also find that people who are usually lazy in their grammar, spelling and punctuation, are very often lazy also in their thinking and quality of debate.

Yakuza

Leaving it out can also lead to all sorts of unintended meanings ...to wit:
Spot the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"

The Raven.

Jakuza, your post illustrates the point perfectly !!

Caoimhe89

donegalfella wrote: »

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Strangely, I would be much more likely to use the comma in the first sentance than in the second sentance. I use punctuation most often as a way of pacing the sentance. So, in the first case, I would SAY "Susan (slight pause) will you answer the phone?" whereas in the second cast, I would SAY "Did you here what I said John?"

I'm pretty sure this is from spending my formative years in drama classes, reading aloud, where we were told that a comma was a heartbeat long and a full stop was two or three heartbeats long (or longer for effect!).

Permabear

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The Raven.

The correct use of the vocative comma does indeed prevent ambiguity. However, the serial comma, as in 'bewitched, bothered and bewildered', can sometimes be misleading even when used correctly. Here is an example taken from a book dedication:

‘To my parents, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.’ :eek::eek:!!

Permabear

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The Raven.

Sorry, I didn’t explain it accurately. I should have said that the lack of the serial comma, as in 'bewitched, bothered and bewildered', can sometimes be misleading even though it is considered correct punctuation.

The serial comma is not normally used in UK English. In the book dedication it was omitted. Consequently, although the punctuation is still correct, in this case it would have been better to use it in order to avoid ambiguity.

Terry

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055166144

Permabear

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The Raven.

That's very funny, Julep. Good support there for the pro-vocative comma !!

Hagar

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sorry I can't hear you over the phone ringing. Susan, ffs answer the phone.