ESB pays wage hike to workers

gurramok

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/outrage-as-esb-goes-ahead-with-wage-hike-1603946.html

THE national energy supplier has come under fire for agreeing to pay 4,000 staff the first 3.5pc instalment of the national pay deal.

This organisation responsible for one of the highest costs of industrial electricity in Europe as reported by the recent Annual Competitiveness report http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055456785 and we all know how expensive residential electricity is also in the uncompetitive market and are now going to screw the country further when there is simply no economic case with inflation running at 1.1% and plummeting.

To back this up further regarding the already high wage costs at the ESB. See here from 2006 http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2006/10/articles/ie0610039i.htm

electricity prices for small users are 51% ahead of the European average.

The average annual salary at ESB stands at €60,437, which is just over twice the average annual Irish industrial wage of €29,787. The review indicates this is 23% above the average salary in the electricity, gas and water sector (€49,282).

The tribune reports is at €67k :mad:
https://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/may/04/esb-the-semi-state-with-the-best-salaries/

lostexpectation

national pay deal.

gurramok

So, whats your view on it?

You and me are paying for this wage hike through expensive electricity. Its also making doing business here even more expensive than it already is.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1001/energy.html

Interestingly since oil prices collapsed, the so called regulator has not made the ESB pass on the discounts in full :mad:

Macha

Another reason to switch to Airtricity

But I agree, it's disgraceful. We need more competition in the energy sector.

juuge

It is a national disgrace that this should go ahead at this time. The ESB workers on average are the best paid jobs in the country, why? because they have the power to hold the country to ransom. It is time the ESB was sold off and just like the public service a major clean out should take place.

jmayo

The lunatics are in charge of the asylum :rolleyes:
How the feck can this be condoned at this time :mad:
If anything electricity charges should be slashed and the wages of ESB cut not increased.

This country is well and truly f***ed.
Anyone have the IMF phone number because with carry on like this it is only a matter of time.

jimmmy

jmayo wrote: »

The lunatics are in charge of the asylum :rolleyes:
How the feck can this be condoned at this time :mad:
If anything electricity charges should be slashed and the wages of ESB cut not increased.

This country is well and truly f***ed.
Anyone have the IMF phone number because with carry on like this it is only a matter of time.

well said

OhNoYouDidn't

juuge wrote: »

It is a national disgrace that this should go ahead at this time. The ESB workers on average are the best paid jobs in the country, why? because they have the power to hold the country to ransom. It is time the ESB was sold off and just like the public service a major clean out should take place.

So an eircom-esque situation is the way forward?

BroomBurner

It is a disgrace that the energy market is not as open as it should be. There are so many twists and turns involved with opening a new energy supply, including costs. It will take a long time for it to unravel. Kind of like when Telecom Eireann was finally told to open up.

As for the National Wage Deal, noone has officially asked for this to be put on hold, so there is actually no legal basis to stop it going through. i think the private sector members of the deal have also put through the increases. Until it is officially suspended, there is no reason for it not to be awarded.

OhNoYouDidn't

BroomBurner wrote: »

As for the National Wage Deal, noone has officially asked for this to be put on hold, so there is actually no legal basis to stop it going through. i think the private sector members of the deal have also put through the increases. Until it is officially suspended, there is no reason for it not to be awarded.

Exactly. It is not the ordinary worker in EBS's fault that energy prices are high. They could work for a hug at the end of the week and we would still be paying over the odds.

Yet again the polemic is to blame Joe Bloggs and make him pay but not the management / policy decisions that actually are the issue.

jmayo

BroomBurner wrote: »

...
As for the National Wage Deal, noone has officially asked for this to be put on hold, so there is actually no legal basis to stop it going through. i think the private sector members of the deal have also put through the increases. Until it is officially suspended, there is no reason for it not to be awarded.

Please read out loud what you typed and then look at the exchequer figures that have been published. :mad:

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Exactly. It is not the ordinary worker in EBS's fault that energy prices are high. They could work for a hug at the end of the week and we would still be paying over the odds.

Yet again the polemic is to blame Joe Bloggs and make him pay but not the management / policy decisions that actually are the issue.

HELLO, are wages not a cost anymore ? :rolleyes:
Maybe wages are just a cost for private sector entities that don't exist either in a vacuum or just to suit the employees.

OhNoYouDidn't

jmayo wrote: »

Please read out loud what you typed and then look at the exchequer figures that have been published. :mad:

thats not a basis to stop a legally binding pay agreement though. the deal is done, move on.

BroomBurner

jmayo wrote: »

Please read out loud what you typed and then look at the exchequer figures that have been published. :mad:

I was stating a fact though, not an opinion. Until those higher up the chain do the business and call for everyone in partnership to vote on it (or suspend partnership and risk strike action), then nothing can be done about it.

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, I'm simply stating that it's a contract that is in place until someone stops it. And so far, noone has.

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

thats not a basis to stop a legally binding pay agreement though. the deal is done, move on.

Oh dear God what an idiotic stance to adopt at this time.
OIt may be legal but where is the money coming from ????

WE REALLY ARE F***ED :mad:

BroomBurner

jmayo wrote: »

Oh dear God what an idiotic stance to adopt at this time.
OIt may be legal but where is the money coming from ????

WE REALLY ARE F***ED :mad:

It's actually not an idiotic stance. There are formalities to go through when revoking any sort of contract. Otherwise, we would be living in fascist state, wouldn't we?

There are legal ramifications to breaking a contract without agreement from all parties involved. That is not the same as saying that all parties involved don't want to break the agreement, just simply that there is a process to follow.

OhNoYouDidn't

jmayo wrote: »

Oh dear God what an idiotic stance to adopt at this time.
OIt may be legal but where is the money coming from ????

WE REALLY ARE F***ED :mad:

so what are you suggesting? the state renage on legally binding agreements? on the subjective basis of your interpretation of the state finances?

I don't think this payrise is warrented or appropriate at this time as it happens. but it is well down there on my list of issues with the current government and its mishandling of the economy over the past 15 years.

nhughes100

Not often I agree with JMayo but it's farcical to pay increases of wages of any sort in this current climate. Anyone who wants an extra 20 quid a week that bankrupts an already bankrupt country is off their rocker. All deals, backpay, current pay agreements, past pay agreements that are held up due to Labour court etc are now off, add in increments and I agree with Enda Kenny, pay freeze until the end of 2010 at the minimum. First on the chopping block - Board members - the definiteive guide of jobs for the boys.

jmayo

BroomBurner wrote: »

It's actually not an idiotic stance. There are formalities to go through when revoking any sort of contract. Otherwise, we would be living in fascist state, wouldn't we?

There are legal ramifications to breaking a contract without agreement from all parties involved. That is not the same as saying that all parties involved don't want to break the agreement, just simply that there is a process to follow.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

so what are you suggesting? the state renage on legally binding agreements? on the subjective basis of your interpretation of the state finances?

I don't think this payrise is warrented or appropriate at this time as it happens. but it is well down there on my list of issues with the current government and its mishandling of the economy over the past 15 years.

Yes I know a lot more about contracts than you may think but this should have been frozen. The government should have raised this with ESB unions and management.

I suppose as OhNoYouDidnt pointed out they are a bunch of incompetent twits and did nothing over the last couple of months about bringing this issue to the table.

Hell the government should have said that they were temporarily freezing all pay increases to public sector bodies as an emergency measure and they would go into discussions.
Let the public sector unions call a strike and see the publics reaction.


It would have helped if they also stated at the same time that they were chopping 80% of ministers of state, cutting top ministers salaries by 30%, and reviewing all senators, co councillors, tds expenses.

But of course nothing happened on anything :mad:

Boston

Jmayo, if we followed your lead ESB employees would strike. They'd probably end up receiving pay increases in excess of the national pay agreement as they work in a vital industry.

banshee_bones

jmayo wrote: »

Yes I know a lot more about contracts than you may think but this should have been frozen. The government should have raised this with ESB unions and management.


Hell the government should have said that they were temporarily freezing all pay increases to public sector bodies as an emergency measure and they would go into discussions.
Let the public sector unions call a strike and see the publics reaction.


It would have helped if they also stated at the same time that they were chopping 80% of ministers of state, cutting top ministers salaries by 30%, and reviewing all senators, co councillors, tds expenses.

But of course nothing happened on anything :mad:

yeah why dont they take a pay cut aswell if they want everyone else to?!

jmayo

Boston wrote: »

Jmayo, if we followed your lead ESB employees would strike. They'd probably end up receiving pay increases in excess of the national pay agreement as they work in a vital industry.

So do nothing with the hope that all this mess goes away when the great hope Obama comes into power in the USA.
Am I paraphrasing a union rep here by any chance ?

All pay increases should have been frozen.
If public sector workers stike then they do.
It is probably going to happen a fair from now on.
BTW we had ESB strikes, Postal strikes etc before and we survived.

Are we going to have situation where the government, IBEC and unions are going to be sitting around a table for a few months, then a few months of votes, meetings and further meetings, all the while the deficit is growing and our borrowing increasing ?

This government is justing wandering aimlessly hoping something turns up to get them out of this mess.
All they learnt from the last 12 years is that you fire money, that they don't
have now, at any problems.

PS correct me if I am wrong but I do seem to remember that you were one of those vociferous in singing the praises of bertie and FF on this forum around the last election :rolleyes:
Sure they were the ones to ensure our bright future, they were the ones that had given us all this growth, construction was great etc, etc.

gurramok

Boston wrote: »

Jmayo, if we followed your lead ESB employees would strike. They'd probably end up receiving pay increases in excess of the national pay agreement as they work in a vital industry.

Let 'em strike.
They won't get any increases due to the country being bankrupt and secondly, they have nowhere else to go as no other country in europe pays their electricity workers that high.

Vital industry?, they should not hold the country to ransom, thats blackmail.

OhNoYouDidn't

jmayo wrote: »

Yes I know a lot more about contracts than you may think but this should have been frozen. The government should have raised this with ESB unions and management.
:

And of course all productivity gains that were agreed with the ESB staff would be frozen also? Just to be consistant like....

OhNoYouDidn't

gurramok wrote: »

Let 'em strike.
They won't get any increases due to the country being bankrupt and secondly, they have nowhere else to go as no other country in europe pays their electricity workers that high.

Vital industry?, they should not hold the country to ransom, thats blackmail.

So basically now times are bad, rip up partnership and go to war with the unions, who lets remind ourselves did not contribute in any way shape or form to the problems we find ourselves in.

Thanks for that constructive input

gandalf

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And of course all productivity gains that were agreed with the ESB staff would be frozen also? Just to be consistant like....

You are kidding. If they want to strike let them. Start replacing them with some of the unemployed and see if their tune changes. Its time to face down all these public service unions that are holding the rest of us to ransom.

Its time to readjust the ESBs wages to the norm in the industry and to realign electricity costs lower accordingly.

gurramok

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So basically now times are bad, rip up partnership and go to war with the unions, who lets remind ourselves did not contribute in any way shape or form to the problems we find ourselves in.

Thanks for that constructive input

Yes they did. They accepted constant benchmarking pay rises along with normal pay rises throughout the years based on unsustainable tax revenue streams.

Basically, the ESB unions were paid off by Bertie to prevent any strike occurring hence their wage rates skyrocketed.
Instead of showing greed, those same unions should of accepted inflation level or below inflation pay rewards but no, they took inflation busting pay rises.

ejmaztec

It's nice to know that the ESB workers won't be affected by the income levy in hard-cash terms. They will still get more than they had before if the increase goes through.

I've lived here for 20 years and cannot help but notice that ESB folks seem to be an overpaid and protected species, no matter what the economic situation is. Pure greed.

At this stage, income should be frozen and costs allowed to fall to a lower level. This way, Ireland will become more and more competitive. If pay increases are allowed, then when the world economy is back on track, Ireland will still be the un-competitive high-cost economy that nobody wants to deal with.

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And of course all productivity gains that were agreed with the ESB staff would be frozen also? Just to be consistant like....

Ok so are you saying that they are not productive up until they got this pay rise or they will only be productive if they keep getting pay rises ?
It is bit like a child being bribed to be good by be given sweeties :rolleyes:
So much for all the so called productivity gains due to benchmarking :rolleyes:

A lot of people on here I would bet say they aren't very productive at all, but that is another argument.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So basically now times are bad, rip up partnership and go to war with the unions, who lets remind ourselves did not contribute in any way shape or form to the problems we find ourselves in.

Thanks for that constructive input

Listen you can have an argument about who is or is not to blame until the cows come home or rather until the IMF come knocking on the door.

A lot of people both in private and public are to blame for this mess, and yes it is not the guys at the bottom, and a lot of people in both private and public did ok out of the great boom times.
Yes ones in certain professions, trades or positions in private sector did best out of the property boom, but they are also the ones suffering most in the bust.
All of that does not help any of us at the moment.

Look at it in a very simple way.
ESB electricity prices stay high, partially due to pretty good salaries of the ones working for ESB.
This makes business in this country less competitive, thus businesses close and/or lay off workers.
This leads to lower tax income and more social welfare costs for government.
In the end they have to increase taxes to make up for tax deficit and pay extra social welfare.

Who do you think will have to pay more income tax?
The unemployed private sector workers or the employed public sector workers ?
Tax the private sector more, the more you make it uncompetitive and the more it contracts.

Either way we are all interlinked and we can all sink or swim together :rolleyes:

ongarite

An example of the power the unions and workers have over ESB management.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/the-esbs-lights-are-on-but-nobodys-home-117229.html

OhNoYouDidn't

gandalf wrote: »

You are kidding. If they want to strike let them. Start replacing them with some of the unemployed and see if their tune changes. Its time to face down all these public service unions that are holding the rest of us to ransom.

Its time to readjust the ESBs wages to the norm in the industry and to realign electricity costs lower accordingly.

Replace highly skilled electronic engineers with the unemployed?

This is getting ludicrious. Reminds me of Jackie Healy-Rae demanding that the army drive trains on a days training.

No-one is holding anyone to ransom, can you get off the offended bus. ESB workers are simply getting a pre agreed payrise they got in return for productivity changes. There is a legitimate debate as to whether the unions should agree to a deferral, but lay off the hysterics.