ESB pays wage hike to workers

thewing

Look, the govt agreed to 3.5% hike, private sector companies have already paid it as well (according to the independent's article) so why shouldn't ESB workers get it? The blame here lies at the foot of the door of Government - the political stunt of bringing forward the budget meant they didn't know how bad things really were until 2.5 months after budget day and 3 months after the partnership agreement was reached. Should have said to hold off until total figures in by year end, so they'd have a better picture of where we stood.

The horse has bolted as regards the partnership agreement, but I think this should be the straw that breaks it.

ejmaztec

jmayo wrote: »

Ok so are you saying that they are not productive up until they got this pay rise or they will only be productive if they keep getting pay rises ?
It is bit like a child being bribed to be good by be given sweeties :rolleyes:
So much for all the so called productivity gains due to benchmarking :rolleyes:

A lot of people on here I would bet say they aren't very productive at all, but that is another argument.



Listen you can have an argument about who is or is not to blame until the cows come home or rather until the IMF come knocking on the door.

A lot of people both in private and public are to blame for this mess, and yes it is not the guys at the bottom, and a lot of people in both private and public did ok out of the great boom times.
Yes ones in certain professions, trades or positions in private sector did best out of the property boom, but they are also the ones suffering most in the bust.
All of that does not help any of us at the moment.

Look at it in a very simple way.
ESB electricity prices stay high, partially due to pretty good salaries of the ones working for ESB.
This makes business in this country less competitive, thus businesses close and/or lay off workers.
This leads to lower tax income and more social welfare costs for government.
In the end they have to increase taxes to make up for tax deficit and pay extra social welfare.

Who do you think will have to pay more income tax?
The unemployed private sector workers or the employed public sector workers ?
Tax the private sector more, the more you make it uncompetitive and the more it contracts.

Either way we are all interlinked and we can all sink or swim together :rolleyes:

There will also be a knock-on effect when those unfortunate individuals with families, who, having lost their jobs, have to visit their local Community Welfare Officer for a hand-out because they can't pay their unmanageable ESB bills. Someone, somewhere, somehow, will have to foot the bill for this ever-increasing cost, then some when the department's budget is exceeded.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

This discussion is bouncing all over the place but:

Someone said to switch to Airtrictiy: ESB are the distribution system owners even if not your supply company. Airtricity et al also availed of recent price increases.

This is a National Pay Deal.

ESB are Private Sector business, despite what many posters have said here. Other Private Sector employees have received the increase since November '07 so why shouldn't this group of private sector employees?

ESB prices are depermined by the CER - bitch to them about prices. They are happy with current efficiencies in ESB. 40% reduction in staff in the past 12 years when workload/new connections/load inprovements increased by 70%.

You're looking at the only state controlled enterprise that pays a dividend to the Shareholder (the Government) and it's in excess of €200M per year. It has never received any government subsidy since the day the company was founded.

But it all boils down to why should one private sector company not pay a National pay Agreement.

Boston

jmayo wrote: »

So do nothing with the hope that all this mess goes away when the great hope Obama comes into power in the USA.
Am I paraphrasing a union rep here by any chance ?

All pay increases should have been frozen.
If public sector workers stike then they do.
It is probably going to happen a fair from now on.
BTW we had ESB strikes, Postal strikes etc before and we survived.

Those strikes where hugely damaging to the countries economy. If we start to get a reputation for regular power cuts, its will stifle investment.

PS correct me if I am wrong but I do seem to remember that you were one of those vociferous in singing the praises of bertie and FF on this forum around the last election :rolleyes:
Sure they were the ones to ensure our bright future, they were the ones that had given us all this growth, construction was great etc, etc.

I forgot I had 100,000 posts and as such avoided FF a landslide.

gandalf wrote: »

You are kidding. If they want to strike let them. Start replacing them with some of the unemployed and see if their tune changes. Its time to face down all these public service unions that are holding the rest of us to ransom.

Its time to readjust the ESBs wages to the norm in the industry and to realign electricity costs lower accordingly.

There's not a huge number of people with the skill set required sitting on the dole. Bringing in scab labour isn't feasible and would more then likely result in an all out strike rather then a work to rule situation. The high wages paid the ESB workers are a reflection of the high wages paid to people often with less qualifications, in the building industry.

gandalf

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Replace highly skilled electronic engineers with the unemployed?

So they are all "highly skilled electronic engineers" I think not. A small percentage of them could be and I am sure there are electronic engineers in the growing unemployed population that can replace them.

This is getting ludicrious. Reminds me of Jackie Healy-Rae demanding that the army drive trains on a days training.

Not at all. What is ludicrous is taking a pay rise when they should be at the very least frozen or at best taking a pay cut to balance the pay cuts and job losses in the private sector especially as they are well above the average industrial wage and have far better pension and leave entitlements.

Expecting to continue on milking the nation while the rest of us struggle is what I would classify as ludicrous.

No-one is holding anyone to ransom, can you get off the offended bus. ESB workers are simply getting a pre agreed payrise they got in return for productivity changes. There is a legitimate debate as to whether the unions should agree to a deferral, but lay off the hysterics.

What productivity changes? If the government asked them to take a pay cut for the sake of the economy I think we all know what the result would be, a strike.

Boston

gandalf wrote: »

So they are all "highly skilled electronic engineers" I think not. A small percentage of them could be and I am sure there are electronic engineers in the growing unemployed population that can replace them.

Very few would be electronic engineers. But you would have a lot of electrical technicians and similarly skilled people. It takes two years to get a suitable qualification and longer again to be trained up be the ESB for that they want. There is some cross over from other industries but keep in mind there was never the glut in the skilled labour force that there was in the unskilled one, and also that it isn't a simply transition from working on a building site to working in a power plant.

bill_ashmount

gurramok wrote: »

Let 'em strike.
They won't get any increases due to the country being bankrupt and secondly, they have nowhere else to go as no other country in europe pays their electricity workers that high.

Vital industry?, they should not hold the country to ransom, thats blackmail.

Agree 100%

jmayo

Olive Unsightly Senior wrote: »

This discussion is bouncing all over the place but:
ESB are Private Sector business, despite what many posters have said here. Other Private Sector employees have received the increase since November '07 so why shouldn't this group of private sector employees?

ESB prices are depermined by the CER - bitch to them about prices. They are happy with current efficiencies in ESB. 40% reduction in staff in the past 12 years when workload/new connections/load inprovements increased by 70%.

You're looking at the only state controlled enterprise that pays a dividend to the Shareholder (the Government) and it's in excess of €200M per year. It has never received any government subsidy since the day the company was founded.

But it all boils down to why should one private sector company not pay a National pay Agreement.

ESB is not a private sector company, it is a semi state with the government, i.e. the taxpayer, being the owner.
I haven't seen their shares quoted on any stock exchange, have you ?
It is not a private sector company.
Eircom is though and Aer Lingus can't make up it's mind what it is :rolleyes:

Wipee it pays a dividend to the government. Maybe that would be because it screws the consumers, be they personal or business, for the service they provide.
Look at it another way it is another form of taxation :rolleyes:

Can you please tell us all who are all these private sector workers that got pay rises since November ?

Then tell us how many pay rises some of them got over the last 5 years that would compare with let's say .... the ESB workers ?

Oh and please do not trot out with plumbers, brickies and electricans, etc who were all now linked to a rapidly shrinking industry.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

gandalf wrote: »

What is ludicrous is taking a pay rise when they should be at the very least frozen or at best taking a pay cut to balance the pay cuts and job losses in the private sector especially as they are well above the average industrial wage and have far better pension and leave entitlements.

You seem to forget that ESB is classed as Private Sector not Public!

Would you take the same approach to P. Kelly Ltd who make a gromit for washing machines when they paid the 3.5% increase and the price of your washer went up to compensate? What about every other private sector business that has paid the increase and whose goods or sevrivces you avail of. Care to moan about them.

I wonder how many private sector hours are lost by employees accessing the internet and posting on sites such as these!;)

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

jmayo wrote: »

ESB is not a private sector company, it is a semi state with the government, i.e. the taxpayer, being the owner.
I haven't seen their shares quoted on any stock exchange, have you ?
It is not a private sector company.
Eircom is though and Aer Lingus can't make up it's mind what it is :rolleyes:
.

Get your facts straight first.:rolleyes:

ESB is certainly classified as Private Sector.(If it were Public Sector it would still be in the pay pause period of the agreement for Public Sector, if nothing else.)
Yes the Government owns 95% of the company but that does not make it a semi-state body as no government funds were ever employed in subsidising or financing the company. It is state owned - a major difference.
It has shares but they are not publically traded. Have you seen Dunnes Stores quotes on the stock exchange, or are you going to tell us Dunnes is Public Sector as well? Forget what you learned in Primary School and get with the facts.

As for companies which have paid the pay deal. I'm not listing them here but many many unionised private sector companies have already paid the first stage of the deal as agreed. (I'm in one and have mates in several others).

nhughes100

Couple of things here, There is an inability to pay clause in all pay agreements as far as I know. It was used regularly during the good times to boost profits in the private sector.

There is also a sound industrial relations clause in the national pay agreements, if you strike you don't get the rise. This was an Ahern master stroke which dramatically reduced the amount of working days lost to strike action.

Finally isn't there something about only being able to sack someone if their job doesn't exist any more? IE you can't just replace them unless of course they were in breach of their contract etc, isn't this what caused the Irish Ferries marches a few years ago? Just imagine the riots if they sacked 100's of ESB staff and took on a load of lads of the dole the following week. It would be like the minor's strike in the 80's.

gandalf

Olive Unsightly Senior wrote: »

You seem to forget that ESB is classed as Private Sector not Public!

Would you take the same approach to P. Kelly Ltd who make a gromit for washing machines when they paid the 3.5% increase and the price of your washer went up to compensate? What about every other private sector business that has paid the increase and whose goods or sevrivces you avail of. Care to moan about them.

By your own admission 95% of the funding comes from the Government. Therefore anything that keeps the costs down benefits the whole country. Having an overpaid and overinflated workforce costs Tax payers money. So I count them as Public Sector because they are wasting tax monies.

I wonder how many private sector hours are lost by employees accessing the internet and posting on sites such as these!;)

Yes I wonder :rolleyes:

grahamo

gurramok wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/outrage-as-esb-goes-ahead-with-wage-hike-1603946.html


This organisation responsible for one of the highest costs of industrial electricity in Europe as reported by the recent Annual Competitiveness report http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055456785 and we all know how expensive residential electricity is also in the uncompetitive market and are now going to screw the country further when there is simply no economic case with inflation running at 1.1% and plummeting.

To back this up further regarding the already high wage costs at the ESB. See here from 2006 http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2006/10/articles/ie0610039i.htm



The tribune reports is at €67k :mad:
https://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/may/04/esb-the-semi-state-with-the-best-salaries/

So the ESB workers are getting a pay rise AGREED by all parties under a national pay deal. So what? They've earned it. They've agreed to whatever productivity changes proposed and done their part of the deal. I'm glad to see some employers have decided not to welch on it. Typical irish begrudgery.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

gandalf wrote: »

By your own admission 95% of the funding comes from the Government. Therefore So I count them as Public Sector because they are wasting tax monies.

Read what I wrote again. 95% of the shares are held by the government and no (Nil) funds have every been made to the company from the state. ESB has always been self financing. There is no waste of tax monies as no tax monies were ever given to ESB. In deed they pay a dividend on the shareholding to government every year. There is a difference between the government holding 95% of the company and them funding 95% of the company. You can count them in any sector you like but it doesn't change the FACT that they are Private Sector.

ejmaztec

grahamo wrote: »

So the ESB workers are getting a pay rise AGREED by all parties under a national pay deal. So what? They've earned it. They've agreed to whatever productivity changes proposed and done their part of the deal. I'm glad to see some employers have decided not to welch on it. Typical irish begrudgery.

I'd say typical arrogant ESB greed.

When the ESB decides to live in the real world, we'll all be happy. The ESB has had it too good for too long and has gone a long way in making the cost of living in Ireland what it is today.

mountainyman

BroomBurner wrote: »

It is a disgrace that the energy market is not as open as it should be. There are so many twists and turns involved with opening a new energy supply, including costs. It will take a long time for it to unravel. Kind of like when Telecom Eireann was finally told to open up.

The energy market has been opened. The price of electricity was raised in order that private sector companies could sell it at a profit.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

mountainyman wrote: »

The energy market has been opened. The price of electricity was raised in order that private sector companies could sell it at a profit.

Totally true. The rugulator had to increase prices because the new companies said they couldn't make a profit on existing prices in Ireland. It actually shows how good ESB were at providing the services for the price. Players have entered the market and disappeared again very quickly as the Domestic end of the business is never going to be profitable for them. They'll only stay if prices are high enough and they can cherrypick the profitable customers leaving the rest to ESB.

grahamo

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'd say typical arrogant ESB greed.

When the ESB decides to live in the real world, we'll all be happy. The ESB has had it too good for too long and has gone a long way in making the cost of living in Ireland what it is today.

So now if you get an agreed pay rise you are GREEDY?

Greed is what the bankers, retailers and property developers and IBEC have been indulging in for the last 15 years or so.

murfie

Olive Unsightly Senior wrote: »

Totally true. The rugulator had to increase prices because the new companies said they couldn't make a profit on existing prices in Ireland. It actually shows how good ESB were at providing the services for the price. Players have entered the market and disappeared again very quickly as the Domestic end of the business is never going to be profitable for them. They'll only stay if prices are high enough and they can cherrypick the profitable customers leaving the rest to ESB.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that the ESB owns the polls and wires that the private company uses. They have priced any competitor out of the market with the charges they look for for use of the infrastructure.

And fair enough I say but don't screw over your customers as well as your competitors when you have a monopoly on the market!

Boston

murfie wrote: »

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that the ESB owns the polls and wires that the private company uses. They have priced any competitor out of the market with the charges they look for for use of the infrastructure.

That's exactly the problem. Same thing happened to eircom LLU. something counter competitive about your competition owning the network have to use.

gurramok

grahamo wrote: »

So the ESB workers are getting a pay rise AGREED by all parties under a national pay deal. So what? They've earned it. They've agreed to whatever productivity changes proposed and done their part of the deal. I'm glad to see some employers have decided not to welch on it. Typical irish begrudgery.

Begrudery me A***!. Its the Irish public and business that are paying through the nose for those wage hikes.

Did you manage to look at the competitiveness report in my first post?

It clearly shows that industrial electricity costs here are the highest in Europe.

When you see companies packing up due to high costs which electricity is a huge factor and you do not understand the consequences of that, then please see the through the fog.

thebman

The regulator sets the price. The regulator didn't force them to reduce it.

The ESB have to do something with all the extra profit being forced on them.

jmayo

For Srameen, Grahamo and all the other public sector workers or students etc on here who are saying, or rather now shouting, that it is an agreed pay rise and thus must be paid.
I have one quesiton ...

WHERE THE F*** IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM TO PAY FOR THESE PAY RISES ??

Now please answer that without resorting to telling us we know nothing, or it is your fault, private companies got pay rises etc, etc, etc, etc ...

ANd yes I knwo I am shouting but :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Boston

jmayo wrote: »

WHERE THE F*** IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM TO PAY FOR THESE PAY RISES ??

The company makes a profit.

OhNoYouDidn't

jmayo wrote: »

WHERE THE F*** IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM TO PAY FOR THESE PAY RISES ??

:

ESB profits. They are a private company.

Is that simple enough for you?

gurramok

Boston wrote: »

The company makes a profit.

A profit on overpriced electricity than you and I pay for. I urge the pro-ESB posters to read the competitiveness report.

Get it?

jlang

They got a big increase over the last few years with the increased oil/gas price. Now that the raw material price has eased, it leaves money to pay the staff extra without making a fuss-causing price increase to customers. Whether there should be a price cut is a different matter altogether but obviously there's less scope now that the salary increases have been paid.

OhNoYouDidn't

gurramok wrote: »

A profit on overpriced electricity than you and I pay for. I urge the pro-ESB posters to read the competitiveness report.

Get it?

Yes we do.

But when people start targetting the wages earned by Tesco workers because of the price of food, or pizza delivery guys because Dominos are expensive, or the bloke in the garage over the price of fuel I'll get it even more.

Lots of things are expensive. People generally have enough cop not to blame the frontline workers for that though.

Boston

gurramok wrote: »

A profit on overpriced electricity than you and I pay for. I urge the pro-ESB posters to read the competitiveness report.

Get it?

Perhaps you should understand that regardless of whether or not the staff get a pay increase, ESB will still be charging us the same. The pay increase isn't met out of tax revenue. Typical blind misplacement of blame.

gurramok

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes we do.

But when people start targetting the wages earned by Tesco workers because of the price of food, or pizza delivery guys because Dominos are expensive, or the bloke in the garage over the price of fuel I'll get it even more.

Lots of things are expensive. People generally have enough cop not to blame the frontline workers for that though.

Nice comparison with minimum wage workers in Tesco. We're talking about highly paid individuals in ESB who work in vital infrastructure who are clearly overpaid.

Boston wrote: »

Perhaps you should understand that regardless of whether or not the staff get a pay increase, ESB will still be charging us the same. The pay increase isn't met out of tax revenue. Typical blind misplacement of blame.

I'm talking about the high charges they charge for their electricity. I hope your not saying these pay rises do not come from the consumers pockets?:rolleyes: