ESB pays wage hike to workers

Davy

juuge wrote: »

Rubbish !....I was born in south wicklow and when I was living there every time there was a strong wind we were left without power. Usually it was a branch of a tree in a forrest that caused a fuse to trip and it took six men (plus a kettle) half a day to fix it,and if it was at the weekend it would take twice as long to put it right, something to do with 'double time' etc. Shower of w**kers the lot of them.

Do you always tar everyone with the same brush?

ionix5891

gurramok wrote: »

So Deloitte are liars then?

i am no accountant but the figures are there in public do the maths yourself

saying that ESB employee wages are responsible for high electricity costs is wrong

as I mentioned many times in this thread the only ones to blames are ourselves (oh noes) for not investing in renewables like the Danish did or nuclear like French did, both of these countries enjoy cheap electricity

GenericUser

Folks...In relation to electricity prices...some facts.
All electricity generators in Ireland (ESB, Viridian, Bord na Mona, Endesa, GE / Tynagh, Synergen and some smaller generators, wind farms and soon to be bord gais) bid a price for the energy they generate into a pool.
Usually The most competitive (cheapest) priced bids / power stations are then run. Wind farms get priority.
The average price paid for energy in this market is about 80 € per Mega Watt Hour (€/MWh). In simple terms one Mega Watt hour is 1000 domentic units. (1 MWh = 1000 units = 1000 kwh)
So the market price for energy is about 8 cent per unit.
The domestic customer pays a mark up on this to cover the profit of the supplier, and to cover other non energy related costs like the upkeep and use of the distribution system, and the use of the transmission system to carry the electricity from big power plants to areas of demand.
Private business and big companies use far more energy than domestic consumers and hence pay less for their energy. Maybe 4-6 cents less per unit. (Buy in bulk => get a discount).
Currently non domestic customers can change supplier. This is to be extended to domestic customers soon so the competition will drive down cost a little.

Back to the market. Similar types of Generating station bid in similar prices for their energy. The private sector power companies (ie: everyone in the list above that isnt esb) tend to bid the same price for their energy as do esb for similar types of station.
So if the esb can keep pace with private power companies price wise, and the esb pay more than private sector, it doesnt exactly follow that the cost of labour in esb is responsible for high prices.
At present nearly 60% of the electricty generated in ROI comes from private companies.
Therefore the argument that ESB are responsible entirely for the high cost of energy is flawed.
There is a wealth of info on the market web site www.sem-o.ie for those interested.
As a footnote, to counter the inevitable argument, I don't work for the esb, and I would admit that there is a lot that could be inmproved in there, but I think it is only fair to see some balanced debate here.

juuge

davton wrote: »

Do you always tar everyone with the same brush?

I was referring to the ones that take half a day to flick a switch ! I'm sure the rest are delightful people the lot of them.

Quint

juuge wrote: »

Rubbish !....I was born in south wicklow and when I was living there every time there was a strong wind we were left without power. Usually it was a branch of a tree in a forrest that caused a fuse to trip and it took six men (plus a kettle) half a day to fix it,and if it was at the weekend it would take twice as long to put it right, something to do with 'double time' etc. Shower of w**kers the lot of them.

And if it wasn't esb that were controlling the networks, would that branch of tree not fallen? I assume you're an electrical engineer and know how long it takes to switch out that section of line, get rid of the tree and replace the section of line? Half a day sounds like a decent time for an emergency callout. And it would probably be quicker now.

ionix5891

Quint wrote: »

And if it wasn't esb that were controlling the networks, would that branch of tree not fallen? I assume you're an electrical engineer and know how long it takes to switch out that section of line, get rid of the tree and replace the section of line? Half a day sounds like a decent time for an emergency callout. And it would probably be quicker now.

lets get few things straight


ESB dont control the network Eirgrid (a full state company spun of ESB many years ago) do

Paparazzo

ionix5891 wrote: »

lets get few things straight


ESB dont control the network Eirgrid (a full state company spun of ESB many years ago) do

And lets get a few more things straight. I'm talking about repairing the network. And ESB do that. ESB Networks to be exact

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

ionix5891 wrote: »

lets get few things straight

ESB dont control the network Eirgrid (a full state company spun of ESB many years ago) do

And let's get something straighter and up to date.

ESB Networks are the Distribution Asset Owner and Operator. They are also the Transmission Asset Owner while Eirgrid is the independent electricity Transmission System Operator (TSO) in Ireland and the Market Operator in the wholesale electricity trading system. ESB Networks carry out all the work on the sytem (Distribution & Transmission).

juuge

Quint wrote: »

I assume you're an electrical engineer .

Not a good idea to assume anything, just stick to the facts, yeh!:)

Quint

Assuming that when there's strong winds and that a half day emergency callout is unreasonable is a bad idea too. When there's strong winds there's going to be more than 1 tree down, unless you want the ESB to have a crew dedicated to your house, a half day is excellent!

Tea drinker

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So basically now times are bad, rip up partnership and go to war with the unions, who lets remind ourselves did not contribute in any way shape or form to the problems we find ourselves in.

Thanks for that constructive input

Sometimes it's good to say no. We really are in the sh1t now and must focus urgently on all available areas for cuts.
I think we have gone through one of the longest and periods of industrial rest since the dawn of the state. A LITTLE bit of unrest would mean the gov negotiators didn't take it in the a**
But no, happy union members vote for their favourite politicians.

WE DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY THE WAGES - THE COUNTRY IS FACING COLLAPSE.
The longer the incompetent fools wring their hands the longer and more difficult it will be to get out of this mess

edit we are worse rated than spain:
S&P strips Spain of its AAA credit rating
Standard & Poor's has stripped Spain of its coveted AAA status in the first such move against a top-rated country since the global crisis began, reflecting the deep damage suffered by Spanish public finances as the debt bubble bursts.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last Updated: 9:47PM GMT 19 Jan 2009

Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Zapatero had to deal with labour protests over the weekend.

The credit-rating agency's downgrade comes at a delicate moment for Euroland's weaker bloc. Several states already face difficulties raising money on the bond markets. The yield spreads on Spanish debt rose yesterday to a post-EMU high of 122 basis points above German Bunds, though still below levels for Italy, Ireland and Greece.
Explaining the downgrade, S&P cited the "structural weaknesses in the Spanish economy" and predicted a long recession that will raise public debt by 18pc of GDP and may entail a huge bank bail-out.

Brussels predicted that unemployment in Spain would reach 19pc by next year, pushing the jobless total to near 4.5m. Opposition leader Mariano Rajoy called on finance minister Pedro Solbes to step down as a "patriotic duty". "This is a man who has thrown in the towel. He's given up, he's got no ideas left and no clue what to do next," he said.
Myriam Fernández, S&P's lead analyst, said Spain's euro membership provided stability but also tied Madrid's hands as it tries to respond to the crisis. "It doesn't have control over monetary policy and lacks the flexibility to correct its current account by devaluation," she said.

...

gurramok

Shocking stuff. Don't expect the likes of Dell's colleagues to stay with industrial prices that high!

Early 2008 prices
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-QA-08-045/EN/KS-QA-08-045-EN.PDF

DeirdreD

Will ESB be hit with pension levies does anyone know? Or are they free to decide what cuts/increases apply to themselves. I agree with John Gormley who today on the news stated that the 3.5% increase was totally inappropriate at this time.

ixoy

DeirdreD wrote: »

Will ESB be hit with pension levies does anyone know?

They're not civil or public servants, so no.

GenericUser

DeirdreD wrote: »

Will ESB be hit with pension levies does anyone know? Or are they free to decide what cuts/increases apply to themselves. I agree with John Gormley who today on the news stated that the 3.5% increase was totally inappropriate at this time.

Commercial Semi states are regarded as private sector so no.
Also the reason why the ESB paid the increase, as a private sector company having agreed to the national wage agreement, they were legally bound to pay it. (I'm not saying its right or wrong, just pointing this out)
What the government needs to do is to officially say the national wage agreement is dead. However they won't do this unilaterally as it will treaten the partnership process.

thebman

The other reason they paid was because of the huge profits they made because the artificially inflated price of energy in this country which Eamon Ryan is only now trying to fix after earlier letting the regulator not decrease prices even though fuel costs had come down significantly, he has now asked him to look at it again.

Of course if you ask him about broadband or if you had asked him about this a month ago, he'd have said he had no powers and you should talk to the regulator!

No accountability, hurray! One of those two people should go, preferably both and get someone half competent.

jmayo

At this point I don't give two f***s how it is done and by whom, but the price of electricity supply in this country should be dropped by very appreciable amount.

The biggest thing that needs to be done at the moment is to preserve jobs, that means reduce costs drastically and electricity is one of the big ones.
Also if ordinary workers, and in particular those who are struggling through lower wages and unemployment, can see that their hosuehold bills are coming down then it helps.

As for the wage rises it is truly a joke at this time, be it legal or not.

A few people on here have stated that ESB are private sector company since commerical semi state. Note the word "state".

Can I ask who is the majority shareholder of the ESB and who appoints the ESB Board ?
Was the current chairman, Lochlann Quinn, not appointed by our fine minister Mr Ryan ?

I didn't know that private companies had boards appointed by government ministers :rolleyes:

Actually it is funny how his appointment just goes to illustrate the cosy little cartel at the top of Irish business, be it private or public. :rolleyes:
Oh and he gets 69,000 for his ardous task :rolleyes:

thebman

jmayo wrote: »

At this point I don't give two f***s how it is done and by whom, but the price of electricity supply in this country should be dropped by very appreciable amount.

The biggest thing that needs to be done at the moment is to preserve jobs, that means reduce costs drastically and electricity is one of the big ones.
Also if ordinary workers, and in particular those who are struggling through lower wages and unemployment, can see that their hosuehold bills are coming down then it helps.

The ESB actually wanted to reduce prices though as it makes it easier for them to kill airtricity and the like.

The regulator kept prices artificially high to encourage "competition". This was all a load of bollocks really though as these companies were never going to take sizable junks of ESB market share quicker because of this inflated price.

I imagine the real reason is because the state gets a share of the profits. So if you want to blame someone, blame the regulator and the Minister for fookups, Eamon Ryan who is also in charge of broadband.

Is a coincidence we have one of the highest line rental costs in the world for some of the worst speeds as well as some of the most expensive electricity in Europe?

Its most likely the common link between the two fooking everything up IMO.

edit--- not done biatching

Comreg are also a joke regulator. They both just do what the minister tells them too IMO which is fook all. Comreg gets its funding from telco's. The more profits they make, the more funding Comreg get and the more money the government get.

Its all a joke.

therealtruth

DeirdreD wrote: »

Will ESB be hit with pension levies does anyone know? Or are they free to decide what cuts/increases apply to themselves. I agree with John Gormley who today on the news stated that the 3.5% increase was totally inappropriate at this time.

who cares what john gormley says as long as the 3.5% is given. An old proverb for people who are annoyed about this. TOUGH

johnnyc

therealtruth wrote: »

who cares what john gormley says as long as the 3.5% is given. An old proverb for people who are annoyed about this. TOUGH

another proverb for you "its time for competition" bring eon and a few more companies into the mix

ionix5891

johnnyc wrote: »

another proverb for you "its time for competition" bring eon and a few more companies into the mix

EON are big into nuclear

i can see that working out great here in ireland with our allergy for the N word

companies dont want to come here as we are a very small market on the edge of europe. if esb wasnt held here by the state they would be out here overnight to more profitable and larger European energy markets

johnnyc

they might be big into nuclear power but they have many other types of power generation

http://www.eon-uk.com/about/2798.aspx
•Received approval for the offshore elements of the London Array offshore wind farm of 1,000MW London Array scheme in the Thames estuary - read more here;
•Received approval for UK's largest offshore wind farm, the 180MW Robin Rigg scheme in the Solway Firth - read more here;
•Received approval to build a new 1,200MW gas-fired power station at Grain, read more here;
•Started work on the UK's largest dedicated biomass power station at Steven's Croft, Lockerbie, Scotland - read more here;
•Climbed from last to second place in the energywatch league table of customer satisfaction - read more here.

thebman

ionix5891 wrote: »

EON are big into nuclear

i can see that working out great here in ireland with our allergy for the N word

companies dont want to come here as we are a very small market on the edge of europe. if esb wasnt held here by the state they would be out here overnight to more profitable and larger European energy markets

The ESB are using their massive profits here to expand into other European countries at the moment and are being very successful as far as I know.

BTW in case anyone was wondering, I don't work for them, I just hate high infrastructure prices

The prices are set by the regulator not the ESB. They are of course going to charge as much as possible and the regulator likes that they do as the competition can then undercut them. What competition you ask. Exactly said the regulator.

The inflation of prices by the regulator was an attempt to attract other energy suppliers into the market where there wasn't enough profit to be had. In other words, the government ripped you off to try to entice competitors into the market and it has failed and we are just left with high energy prices.

I.e. another Fianna fail policy fails!

Davy

thebman wrote: »

The prices are set by the regulator not the ESB. They are of course going to charge as much as possible and the regulator likes that they do as the competition can then undercut them. What competition you ask. Exactly said the regulator.

The inflation of prices by the regulator was an attempt to attract other energy suppliers into the market where there wasn't enough profit to be had.

When the chairman of the company makes a statement that he wants to reduce the prices by 10%, how clear can it be that his hands are tied.

Pitty they wanted little Ireland to be european, and force the prices high just to profit other companys. In the longer run i can see the prices falling, the oil price drop is a help, and the fact that 33% of its overall production will come From renewable energy sources by 2020. Also the ESB has planned to be carbon neutral by 2035, which is ahead of the EU wide target of 2050.

mike65

Anyone listening to Liveline

www.rte.ie/radio1

An ESB employee (Willie) talking about the price, talking of it as a stealth tax.

matrim

Well it looks like this is ESB's response to the flack they are taking

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnidmhauau/

The chief executive of the ESB Padraig McManus has announced that he is to take a 10% pay cut.

Other senior managers at the electricity company have agreed to a 5% cut in wages, while all staff have been asked to accept a two-year pay freeze.

The decision was announced following a meeting between unions and management today, where unions were asked to speed up a review of the company's pensions scheme.

The ESB came under fire last week for awarding pay rises due to staff under the national wage agreement.

SkepticOne

davton wrote: »

When the chairman of the company makes a statement that he wants to reduce the prices by 10%, how clear can it be that his hands are tied.

Pitty they wanted little Ireland to be european, and force the prices high just to profit other companys. In the longer run i can see the prices falling, the oil price drop is a help, and the fact that 33% of its overall production will come From renewable energy sources by 2020. Also the ESB has planned to be carbon neutral by 2035, which is ahead of the EU wide target of 2050.

Why then are the ESB requesting price increases from the regulator? Most recent example 5.8% for domestic users in 2009 (luckily turned down by the regulator). This is on top of an earlier increase of 17% (again at the request of ESB) taken effect on August 8th.

gurramok

I think the CER may have heard you.
http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0209/electricity.html

The Commission for Energy Regulation says it will to seek a significant reduction in electricity and gas prices from the ESB and Bord Gáis.

Half of Ireland's electricity is generated using gas, and its price on international markets has fallen sharply in recent months.

Separate meetings are being held with ESB and Bord Gáis representatives this week and it is hoped a deal can be struck within a month.

I'd say there has been some political cop-on to the extremely high price of industrial electricity which is driving industry away hence todays development
As posters have said the ESB can afford it no problem, then we'll say drastic cuts!

lemon123

educate yourselves boys and girls. the price of electricity is set by the industry regulator and not the ESB. ESB has only 40% of the market and the price is kept high to keep the competitors happy. If ESB dropped their wages by 50% it would make no difference to anyones ESB bill. Another example of how deregulation doesn't work. Eircom, CIE - markets don't work. When will we learn.

gurramok

All news today!

ESB seeks 2 yr pay freeze for their staff.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0209/breaking86.htm