Does god love the wicked?

JimiTime

This arose from a different thread.

Jakkass wrote: »

JammyDodger, God loved you so much that He gave His only begotten Son to atone for your sins.

Is this true? Does he love those who reject him? Honest question. I'm wondering if this is just some rhetoric that has creeped into Christian teaching.

Did God love the Pharisee's who rejected him? Who Jesus called 'offspring of vipers'? Or those who he hid meaning from? Does in fact, God love every man woman and child? Or does he hate those who hate him? Does he love the wicked?

I'm not 100% on this tbh. Defo, Christ redeemed us all, but only if we accept his gift. Those who reject it?

You imply that I'm wicked? For shame!

JimiTime

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

You imply that I'm wicked? For shame!

Actually, that raises a critical point. What is wicked to God? In old testament times, certainly worshipping false Gods was deemed wickedness. Is rejecting God wicked, in the eyes of God? Genuine question. I'd like to hear Christian view on it.

PDN

I believe that we are all wicked, just some of us more than others. (I think this was done to death recently on another thread recently, with atheists pretending to be outraged etc.)

John 3:16 speaks of God's love for the whole world, despite our wickedness.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

I believe that we are all wicked, just some of us more than others. (I think this was done to death recently on another thread recently, with atheists pretending to be outraged etc.)

John 3:16 speaks of God's love for the whole world, despite our wickedness.

So the ones he destroys in the end, or sends to hell, are ones he still loves?

oh, and what was the title of the thread you mentioned?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

God is incapable of hate, I would have thought. The whole theme of the Bible is that God is Love.

I'd almost say it's sacriligoue to say that God can hate.

It's only right-wing neo-cons that think God is Hate.

Rev Hellfire

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

God is incapable of hate, I would have thought. The whole theme of the Bible is that God is Love.

I'd almost say it's sacriligoue to say that God can hate.

Well if he/it is all powerful he's quite capable of it.
Though like yourself, just because you can do something don't mean you have to.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Well if he/it is all powerful he's quite capable of it.
Though like yourself, just because you can do something don't mean you have to.

Well, ok, incapable is probably the wrong word, but I don't think he'd allow himself to. The whole point of being devine is being free of negative emotion.

Rev Hellfire

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Well, ok, incapable is probably the wrong word, but I don't think he'd allow himself to. The whole point of being devine is being free of negative emotion.

What makes you think been divine implies been free of emotion. Anyway if we assume there is a god, its quite unlikely that such a creature would be bound or use human emotion or frames of reference.

wolfsbane

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

God is incapable of hate, I would have thought. The whole theme of the Bible is that God is Love.

I'd almost say it's sacriligoue to say that God can hate.

It's only right-wing neo-cons that think God is Hate.

Never mind what right-wing neo-cons think, heed what God thinks:
Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote: »

This arose from a different thread.



Is this true? Does he love those who reject him? Honest question. I'm wondering if this is just some rhetoric that has creeped into Christian teaching.

Did God love the Pharisee's who rejected him? Who Jesus called 'offspring of vipers'? Or those who he hid meaning from? Does in fact, God love every man woman and child? Or does he hate those who hate him? Does he love the wicked?

I'm not 100% on this tbh. Defo, Christ redeemed us all, but only if we accept his gift. Those who reject it?

God loves everyone, even those who hate Him. He shows this by offering Himself as a sacrifice to offer eternal salvation to all.

I will never stop loving my kids no matter what path they take. I will always be ready to take them back and hug and hold them and care for them and protect them.

If I as an imperfect human have that capacity so much more has God.

Soul Winner

JimiTime wrote: »

This arose from a different thread.



Is this true? Does he love those who reject him? Honest question. I'm wondering if this is just some rhetoric that has creeped into Christian teaching.

Did God love the Pharisee's who rejected him? Who Jesus called 'offspring of vipers'? Or those who he hid meaning from? Does in fact, God love every man woman and child? Or does he hate those who hate him? Does he love the wicked?

I'm not 100% on this tbh. Defo, Christ redeemed us all, but only if we accept his gift. Those who reject it?

Roman's 5 states the following:

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5: 6-10

That pretty much ends the debate of whether God loves the wicked or not. He loved them (us) enough to send His only begotten Son to die for us. As PDN says we are all wicked, we don't even realise how wicked we really are. The hardest ones for God to save though are the ones who just cannot see how much they need to be saved. Fundamentalist top the list because all they do is preach a perfectionist doctrine of condemnation straight from the pit of hell. They are the hardest ones to save because their sins are spiritual sins, spiritual pride. Take the parable of the Publican and Pharisee as a good example of this.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18: 10-14

So even though the door of salvation is open now because of what God wrought in Christ, and anyone who wants to can enter in, there will still be some who can never enter it because their eyes are blinded to their need of it, they are too busy plucking little splinters from their brother’s eyes whilst having planks in their own. I for one am glad that the likes of them will not be Heaven. Praise Jesus

Red Hand

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

God is incapable of hate, I would have thought. The whole theme of the Bible is that God is Love.

I'd almost say it's sacriligoue to say that God can hate.

It's only right-wing neo-cons that think God is Hate.

God is totally capable of human emotions. Hate, Love, Jealousy etc. In the Old Testament, how many people's has he smitten/exterminated or at least expressed his wishes that his chosen people exterminate certain others?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

God is totally capable of human emotions. Hate, Love, Jealousy etc. In the Old Testament, how many people's has he smitten/exterminated or at least expressed his wishes that his chosen people exterminate certain others?

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

What makes you think been divine implies been free of emotion. Anyway if we assume there is a god, its quite unlikely that such a creature would be bound or use human emotion or frames of reference.

In fairness, I did specify negative emotion.

As regards the Psalm quotation (thought I'd added it, appears not)

Wolfsbane wrote:

Never mind what right-wing neo-cons think, heed what God thinks:
Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

The Lord now talks in third person? Is Pighead God...? And the first part was in the second!

Dades

JimiTime wrote: »

Is rejecting God wicked, in the eyes of God?

Do you mean believing in, and rejecting?

Because I don't think it's possible to 'reject' something you don't believe exists.

JimiTime

Dades wrote: »

Do you mean believing in, and rejecting?

Because I don't think it's possible to 'reject' something you don't believe exists.

Its an open question really. To spark discussion. See what opinions are out there, within the Christian framework of course:)
In response to what you're saying though, truly 'knowing' God means that you have his holy spirit, like those at Pentecost. Having this spirit and defying it, would count, in my reading of things, as the unforgivable sin. However, there are billions who worship other gods. Are these people wicked in Gods eyes?
I understand, like what PDN and SW said, we are all wicked and in need of Gods Mercy. However, don't we attain it by recognising our need for this and conciously accepting the saving grace of Christs sacrifice? Under this, are we not one with Christ? Washed clean of our iniquities by his blood? For the wicked who face God in their own skin, without having come to Christ to be cleansed, will they not be viewed as the wicked of old?

Also, if God loves those who he sends to hell, how will God feel for the rest of eternity? Is there a love known, that would not be tormented by loved ones being put through this?

Húrin

JimiTime wrote: »

This arose from a different thread.



Is this true? Does he love those who reject him? Honest question. I'm wondering if this is just some rhetoric that has creeped into Christian teaching.

Did God love the Pharisee's who rejected him? Who Jesus called 'offspring of vipers'? Or those who he hid meaning from? Does in fact, God love every man woman and child? Or does he hate those who hate him? Does he love the wicked?

We know God loves us who accept him.
Whether we accept him or not we are all wicked.
Thus, God loves the wicked, be they believers or not.

This is illustrated by the parable of the prodigal son.

However, wickedness is detestable to God. He loves all humans so much that he does not insist that we follow his salvation plan. He has such respect for our free will that he allows us to choose death rather than life should we so desire.

If you love someone you do not try to control them in order so that your feelings can be satisfied, but rather you respect what they wish for themselves. Even if it means them leaving you.

wolfsbane

Ikky Poo2 said:

As regards the Psalm quotation (thought I'd added it, appears not)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfsbane
Never mind what right-wing neo-cons think, heed what God thinks:
Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
The Lord now talks in third person? Is Pighead God...? And the first part was in the second!

I see your problem - you did not realise that in the Bible the words of the prophets (the psalmists are such) are God's words, ie., the truth God inspired them to record for us.

All that the psalmist here says of God's attitude to the wicked is true: God hates all workers of iniquity; He abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

wolfsbane

Húrin said:

We know God loves us who accept him.

True.

Whether we accept him or not we are all wicked.
Thus, God loves the wicked, be they believers or not. This is illustrated by the parable of the prodigal son.

The mistake occurs when one moves from particular wicked, us who accept him, to all the wicked. God has loved His elect from all eternity, from before they were born, through their unbelieving years, now as believers, and to all eternity. That is not true of the non-elect.

However, wickedness is detestable to God. He loves all humans so much that he does not insist that we follow his salvation plan. He has such respect for our free will that he allows us to choose death rather than life should we so desire.

If you love someone you do not try to control them in order so that your feelings can be satisfied, but rather you respect what they wish for themselves. Even if it means them leaving you.

That is human reasoning, not Biblical reasoning. The Bible tells us something much better - God will not allow His chosen ones to continue in their sin and hatred of Him, but will intervene to change their minds and cause their repentance:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Acts 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘ I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Húrin

wolfsbane wrote: »

The mistake occurs when one moves from particular wicked, us who accept him, to all the wicked. God has loved His elect from all eternity, from before they were born, through their unbelieving years, now as believers, and to all eternity. That is not true of the non-elect.

I don't think that this is the right thread to propagandise predestination in.

wolfsbane

Húrin said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane

The mistake occurs when one moves from particular wicked, us who accept him, to all the wicked. God has loved His elect from all eternity, from before they were born, through their unbelieving years, now as believers, and to all eternity. That is not true of the non-elect.
I don't think that this is the right thread to propagandise predestination in.

I'm happy to teach predestination anywhere, but that is not my purpose on this thread. My purpose was to show why it is mistaken to apply God's love for the elect to all mankind without distinction.

No wonder posters here are confused about God supposedly loving all but hating the wicked. If we stuck to the Scriptures we would say that God is kind and patient to all, good and bad alike, but that long-suffering has a limit. His eternal love is a different matter - focused on His people.

Húrin

wolfsbane wrote: »

His eternal love is a different matter - focused on His people.

I agree. I thought however, that the OP meant the state of affairs here on earth, which is mostly populated by unbelievers. God loves them all (John 3:16, to take the most obvious example) and that is why he is so patient and kind, and why he gave his son in sacrifice for us.

wolfsbane

Húrin wrote: »

I agree. I thought however, that the OP meant the state of affairs here on earth, which is mostly populated by unbelievers. God loves them all (John 3:16, to take the most obvious example) and that is why he is so patient and kind, and why he gave his son in sacrifice for us.

It was discussed on another thread in more depth, but the issue is: Does God love everyone without exception with the same love? Did He love Judas with the same love as He did James and John? Does He now love Judas (who is in hell) with the same love as He does James and John (who are with Him in heaven)?

Who are the ones the Bible says He hates?

I'm saying His kindness to good and evil men, in sending rain and sun and all the benefits of life, is not His eternal love. One day His kindness and patience with the wicked will end.

What about John 3:16 then? Seems to me to be referring to man as a catagory - His special creation - and to the elect specifically. His love of the world is defined by the intended results - that πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων/the believing ones would not perish but have everlasting life. The focus is on the believers.

So we could say that God loves man as His creature, but His saving love is for the elect.

JimiTime

wolfsbane wrote: »

It was discussed on another thread in more depth, but the issue is: Does God love everyone without exception with the same love? Did He love Judas with the same love as He did James and John? Does He now love Judas (who is in hell) with the same love as He does James and John (who are with Him in heaven)?

Who are the ones the Bible says He hates?

I'm saying His kindness to good and evil men, in sending rain and sun and all the benefits of life, is not His eternal love. One day His kindness and patience with the wicked will end.

What about John 3:16 then? Seems to me to be referring to man as a catagory - His special creation - and to the elect specifically. His love of the world is defined by the intended results - that πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων/the believing ones would not perish but have everlasting life. The focus is on the believers.

So we could say that God loves man as His creature, but His saving love is for the elect.

That makes sense.