Are Labour the best alternative to 12 years of FF?

thebigcheese22

Well personally i think they are but I'd like to get other people's opinions.

And before people start dissing Labour I'd like to remind them that Eamonn Gilmore is the most popular leader in the country. (granted that accolade is not hard...)

For too long has Ireland been dominated by civil war politics, I think its time for the oldest political party in Ireland to have a Taoiseach and Eamonn Gilmore is his name

nesf

No, but then since I'm on the economic right that's pretty much a given. That said, Gilmore is definitely one of the best of that bunch.

Dob74

I'll be voting labour next time out. FG are pretty much the same as FF except for there name. If they can get 50 seats which maybe possible if they can get a seat in every constituency and a few doubles, they have a chance

Mr.Micro

E. Gilmore comes across as a fine politician, sharp and dogged when necessary. I am not sure the whole package of Labour is up to it, a few eccentrics in there.

thebigcheese22

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I am not sure the whole package of Labour is up to it, a few eccentrics in there.

Like?! :rolleyes:

And please dont say Micheal D...

brianthebard

Mr.Micro wrote: »

E. Gilmore comes across as a fine politician, sharp and dogged when necessary. I am not sure the whole package of Labour is up to it, a few eccentrics in there.

Every party have eccentrics, I wouldn't discount them for that. I don't think of Labour as an alternative to either FF or FG, even though I vote Labour. Rather they are a capable and strong minded partner, who won't be pushed around by the bigger coalition party. This is one of the reasons FF didn't go into government with Labour at the last election, they would've lost too much power. Gilmore is also a marked improvement on Rabbitte, who was also a good leader but I think Gilmore is just overall a shaper character and is doing well with the party.

Mr.Micro

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Like?! :rolleyes:

And please dont say Micheal D...

Well Michael D is one and Joan B as well a little bit wooly. Eccentrics in a nice way of course.:)

murphaph

Perhaps if someone can smash the stranglehold of the public sector unions, Labour could then go into government. Not before. Labour would not be able to go head to head with the unions and it has to happen. Social partnership was all fine and well (actually it wasn't!) when there was lots of money sloshing about to prevent frivolous strikes but the money's gone and the public sector needs urgent and widespread reform. The unions will obstruct this reform at every turn and would happilly bankrupt the country in the process.

Honestly, I believe the nice folks in FF are best placed to do this and I'm actually glad they got back in now. Once this work is done I'd like FF to be fcuked out of government for a decade to teach them a lesson.

DadaKopf

To the original question, I'd say 'yes'. But they're the third party and so can never be an 'alternative' to FF or FG for the forseeable future.

murphaph wrote: »

Perhaps if someone can smash the stranglehold of the public sector unions, Labour could then go into government. Not before. Labour would not be able to go head to head with the unions and it has to happen. Social partnership was all fine and well (actually it wasn't!) when there was lots of money sloshing about to prevent frivolous strikes but the money's gone and the public sector needs urgent and widespread reform. The unions will obstruct this reform at every turn and would happilly bankrupt the country in the process.

Honestly, I believe the scumbags in FF are best placed to do this and I'm actually glad they got back in now. Once this work is done I'd like FF to be fcuked out of government for a decade to teach them a lesson.

I would say FF's and FG's proposals to reform the public service are wrong-headed; Labour's make much more sense (and let's face it, no one actually knows what they're talking about here - are they talking the civil service, agencies, the wider public sector? Do they know the differences? In my job, I had to know about this. I've even read that OECD report the politicos keep mentioning.)

If it wasn't for the unions, we wouldn't have the employment abd social rights we have. On the other hand, they need to cop on.

T runner

brianthebard wrote: »

Every party have eccentrics, I wouldn't discount them for that. I don't think of Labour as an alternative to either FF or FG, even though I vote Labour. Rather they are a capable and strong minded partner, who won't be pushed around by the bigger coalition party. This is one of the reasons FF didn't go into government with Labour at the last election, they would've lost too much power. Gilmore is also a marked improvement on Rabbitte, who was also a good leader but I think Gilmore is just overall a shaper character and is doing well with the party.

There was a FF insider on another thread who swore FF wanted labour but Labour werent interested.

Labour missed a big oppurtunity last time and could have damaged FF votewise...until they signed the disastrous Mullingar accord. That effectively stopped any major transfer of voters from FF to Labour.

T runner

murphaph wrote: »

Perhaps if someone can smash the stranglehold of the public sector unions, Labour could then go into government. Not before. Labour would not be able to go head to head with the unions and it has to happen. Social partnership was all fine and well (actually it wasn't!) when there was lots of money sloshing about to prevent frivolous strikes but the money's gone and the public sector needs urgent and widespread reform. The unions will obstruct this reform at every turn and would happilly bankrupt the country in the process.

Honestly, I believe the scumbags in FF are best placed to do this and I'm actually glad they got back in now. Once this work is done I'd like FF to be fcuked out of government for a decade to teach them a lesson.

You havent a clue what youre talking about re public sector Unions.
Your only reacting to reports on the public sector wages bill youve seen recently on the Telly. Complete non-sense.

sceptre

T runner wrote: »

Labour missed a big oppurtunity last time and could have damaged FF votewise...until they signed the disastrous Mullingar accord. That effectively stopped any major transfer of voters from FF to Labour.

They're probably still paranoid after the red wave of 1993 turned into the red mist of 1997.

Either they actually hoped that a FG-Lab coalition was a possibility last time (which I rather doubt) or they're hoping to play the long game and overtake FG in the mid future. Or something else less cunning that I haven't thought of.

DadaKopf

sceptre wrote: »

They're probably still paranoid after the red wave of 1993 turned into the red mist of 1997.

Either they actually hoped that a FG-Lab coalition was a possibility last time (which I rather doubt) or they're hoping to play the long game and overtake FG in the mid future. Or something else less cunning that I haven't thought of.

In the run up to that election, there certainly was that fear among many in the party. I tended to agree, actually. I felt it would damage labour more if they did go into government with either FG or FF. The government of the past 10 years should be held accountable. Instead, it was the turn of the Greens to prove themselves and they're finding things very difficult. So perhaps this means the Mullingar Accord was a way to throw the spanner in the works. I don't buy this, though - there was an air going into the election that the economic would have an epileptic fit, but nobody could know when.

It's clear that Labour have decided to avoid even a whiff of pre-election pacts. The party as a whole has decided this. It's a good move, but unfortunately the party will remain boxed in by our tribalist party system. While Labour would love to overtake FG as the second party, it's just not going to happen, and they know it. So the strategy is to gain leverage.

Personally, I would prefer Labour to go in with FF and the Greens than with FG and whoever else.

murphaph

T runner wrote: »

You havent a clue what youre talking about re public sector Unions.
Your only reacting to reports on the public sector wages bill youve seen recently on the Telly. Complete non-sense.

Remember the DART drivers (fully supported by their unions) threatened to strike if they didn't get more money for driving 8 carriage trains instead of 6 carriage ones? I I think everyone knows the public sector unions agenda and the national interest factors absolutely nowhere in it.

MG

nesf wrote: »

No, but then since I'm on the economic right that's pretty much a given. That said, Gilmore is definitely one of the best of that bunch.

Ditto for me word for word.

Labour always seem to have the best leaders, pity about the policies especially the recent shift further left.

DadaKopf

MG wrote: »

Ditto for me word for word.

Labour always seem to have the best leaders, pity about the policies especially the recent shift further left.

On the other hand, they're modernising the party, to take them more into the centre of politics. One case in point: efforts to distance the party from trade unions.

Personally, I feel Labour's policies are based on sound social democratic principles. There are good people in the party and I think the electorate is seeing them now as (1) the most effective opposition and (2) the most credible balancer in any future government.

deadhead13

FF/Labour - most likely next government.

tomcosgrave

If I can just comment on the ridiculous "Labour are too close to the Unions" stuff.

To be honest, I can't believe people allow themselves to fall for this old chestnut. Labour have not been in power since 1997. Fianna Fáíl have.

Not all unions and not all union members are supporters of the Labour Party. Irish trade unions have a very large amount of Fianna Fáil members and supporters. I have encountered many trade unionists who would never, ever vote for Labour.

Despite what many people seem to think, they are not comprised of Labour supporters only.

Those who do not support unions (and I am not one of these people) really need take a look around them.

Who has been running the country since 1997? Who has been deciding policy with the assistance of both trade unions and also the likes of lobby groups like IBEC and the Construction Industry Federation? since 1997?

Fianna Fáil have been - not the Labour Party.

The people who have damaged Ireland in the last decade are not trade unionists. The people who have damaged Ireland are as follows -

Corrupt Fianna Fáíl politicians -
- most politicians indicted in tribunals have been Fianna Fáil politicians.

Incompetent Fianna Fáíl / PD and now Green Party politicians -
- I could spend a considerable length of time on this point, but to take one element of failed government, consider the public health service.

Builders -
They build the cheapest structures for the most profit, neglecting to provide real communities with social centres, shops etc. This ties back into Fianna Fáíl, who are funded to the tune of MILLIONS by these people - see the Galway races for instance, also see Cáirde Fáil dinners.

Bankers and financiers -
The events of the last few months and probably the next few months will show this.

But the people who have done the most damage?
The electorate. That's right, us. Those of us who continue to vote Fianna Fáil do not pay attention to politics because of the view that "they're all the same" or "sure what does it matter" or voting for self interest as opposed to the best interest for the contry has done the most damage.

And until that changes, Ireland is in deep trouble, and will be blighted by the poor governance we have had for decades.

WAKE UP!!

thebigcheese22

[/QUOTE]And until that changes, Ireland is in deep trouble, and will be blighted by the poor governance we have had for decades.

WAKE THE HELL UP!![/QUOTE]

+1

And also on the point of Labour becoming more left-wing recently, i don't think thats the case if you know anything about the 21st century commission, which is a load of garbage but thats another issue... :rolleyes:



But I think the world has become as a whole, more left wing in the last couple of months with the financial meltdown..and how could it not?!
The whole capitalist system as it exists atm has failed us and I think people in this country will realise this in the next election...hopefully anyway...

tomcosgrave

I am aware of the 21st Century Commission, it will be interesting to see what comes of it.

What is more important than the 21st Centure Commission, is to show the Irish electorate that Labour are well worth voting for, and will take this country from the battered mess it has been driven into, to the country that people want it to be - secure in the knowledge that if we or our loved ones are ill, we will get first class medical care, comfortably off with adequate incomes and pensions after retirement, caring, where the old and infirm are respected and considered, where our children can get a decent education through to third level and then good jobs when their education is completed.

Fianna Fáil have shown they cannot do that successfully.
Fine Gael are no different from Fianna Fáil, looking at their policies will show this.
So it's down to the Labour Party.

grahamo

murphaph wrote: »

Perhaps if someone can smash the stranglehold of the public sector unions, Labour could then go into government. Not before. Labour would not be able to go head to head with the unions and it has to happen. Social partnership was all fine and well (actually it wasn't!) when there was lots of money sloshing about to prevent frivolous strikes but the money's gone and the public sector needs urgent and widespread reform. The unions will obstruct this reform at every turn and would happilly bankrupt the country in the process.

Honestly, I believe the nice folks in FF are best placed to do this and I'm actually glad they got back in now. Once this work is done I'd like FF to be fcuked out of government for a decade to teach them a lesson.

How much do you know about the unions? The last time Labour were in power the unions found them very difficult to deal with, they would probably prefer to talk to FF.
You must remember social partnership has been going on since the 80's (when there was no money) and the unions gave up a lot back then for very little in return. I couldn't count the amount of times my employer during the 80's pleaded poverty when it came to paying a lousy 2% pay rise. They could afford it, they just constantly pushed the workers and union as far as they could.
Every pay deal negotiated by the unions in the last 20 years have not even matched increases in cost of living.

nesf

DadaKopf wrote: »

On the other hand, they're modernising the party, to take them more into the centre of politics. One case in point: efforts to distance the party from trade unions.

They are in opposition, it remains to be seen however how much of this holds true once they are in power (which, let's face it is almost a given at the next election). As with any party, it's hard to judge the impact of any change until you've seen them in power.

MG

DadaKopf wrote: »

On the other hand, they're modernising the party, to take them more into the centre of politics. One case in point: efforts to distance the party from trade unions.

Personally, I feel Labour's policies are based on sound social democratic principles. There are good people in the party and I think the electorate is seeing them now as (1) the most effective opposition and (2) the most credible balancer in any future government.

I would have said the opposite - I felt they were very much in the centre but moved left when Eamon Gilmore took over. Probably an astute move politically in fairness, they'll pick up a fair few ex FF votes there.

tapjlk6

I like Eamon Gilmome. He makes scence not like a lot of them.
My question is would he brave enough to stand up and say that TDs get paid far to much for a country of this size. And that the Taoiseach should not be getting paid as much as the US President. They all should take a 50% pay cut.
Maybe then we might think they were genuine