Moore Street national monument row

luckat

The Moore Street terrace that was the place of the last stand of the GPO garrison in 1916 is under threat from a new development.

(There's an impression going around that the terrace has been saved, but it hasn't.)

In case you don't know what happened in Moore Street, the GPO garrison - something like 320 people from the Citizen Army and the Irish Volunteers - raced out of the burning GPO carrying the badly wounded James Connolly and other wounded people, got into the first house on Moore Street and tunnelled their way through, continuing to fight from there until the final surrender.

Accounts were written by those who were there at the time - Nurse Elizabeth O'Farrell, for instance, and if anyone can find links to them online that would be great.

The developer who wants to build a giant mall on the 'Carlton site' - a huge site going from O'Connell Street back through Moore Street - plans that this national monument will be the place for the mall's toilets and kitchenettes...

The developer building the site is the company that did the Dundrum Centre, and apparently is anti-history generally - they've shown their reverence for the concept by putting up portraits of the seven signatories of the Proclamation of Independence in Moore Street - on the gates that open to the rubbish chutes!

If you're interested in saving this national monument, write to Minister John Gormley (Department of the Environment, Dáil Éireann, Kildare Street, Dublin 2) as the person who has the yea or nay on it, and cc the letter to your local TDs and councillors.

luckat

The hearing on this appeal is on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in the Gresham (April 20, 21 and 22), if anyone's interested in taking a look.

Hagar

These people only read correspondance written on the back of large, over-stuffed brown envelopes.
It's a shame that a significant memorial couldn't be incorpoarated into the development. It wouldn't be that hard.

DublinDes

luckat wrote: »

The Moore Street terrace that was the place of the last stand of the GPO garrison in 1916 is under threat from a new development.

(There's an impression going around that the terrace has been saved, but it hasn't.)

In case you don't know what happened in Moore Street, the GPO garrison - something like 320 people from the Citizen Army and the Irish Volunteers - raced out of the burning GPO carrying the badly wounded James Connolly and other wounded people, got into the first house on Moore Street and tunnelled their way through, continuing to fight from there until the final surrender.

Accounts were written by those who were there at the time - Nurse Elizabeth O'Farrell, for instance, and if anyone can find links to them online that would be great.

The developer who wants to build a giant mall on the 'Carlton site' - a huge site going from O'Connell Street back through Moore Street - plans that this national monument will be the place for the mall's toilets and kitchenettes...

The developer building the site is the company that did the Dundrum Centre, and apparently is anti-history generally - they've shown their reverence for the concept by putting up portraits of the seven signatories of the Proclamation of Independence in Moore Street - on the gates that open to the rubbish chutes!

If you're interested in saving this national monument, write to Minister John Gormley (Department of the Environment, Dáil Éireann, Kildare Street, Dublin 2) as the person who has the yea or nay on it, and cc the letter to your local TDs and councillors.

Typical, bloody typical. As if we don't have enough shopping malls in Dublin :rolleyes:

Shutuplaura

Its a complete disgrace. Our cultural history, besides being worht preserving for its own sake, is actually a major draw for tourists etc and marks Ireland out as distinct (and therefore worht visiting) from the UK.

There is a bloke on another internet forum involved in preserving another War of Independance site, this time in danger from being destoyed to straighten a road or something. The site is Coolnacaheragh, site of one of the largest ambushes of the 1919-1922 era.

http://sites.google.com/site/coolnacaheragh/

Denerick

luckat wrote: »

The hearing on this appeal is on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in the Gresham (April 20, 21 and 22), if anyone's interested in taking a look.

Thanks for that, might go down later today. Any idea if any sort of protest has been organised? I hate the way these things are usually taken over by Shinners. Brings to mind the quote 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundral'.

To be interested in your heritage in this country always seems to be misconstrued to being a member of that rambling, foam at the mouth imbeciles. Ah well.

lostexpectation

im just not convinced the building is special how many hours were they in the building, if it had some prechosen buidling for fallback or involved in the planning maybe, it seems to me to random building occupied for hours?

Taltos

Agree with other groups taking over these things.
After spending time abroad I have really come to see how short-sighted this country's developers & planners are.

Here is a site that a lot of tourists would love to come and see - especially if it was restored - imagine guided walks listening to playbacks of what happened.

In this time of cut-backs we really should be trying to promote our heiritage as much as possible, not bury it under concrete as if we were ashamed of what happened. I am only ashamed at how we are now perceived abroad.

> Corrupt government; greedy public - - - this coming from some former tourists I have met abroad. And what could I say to dissuade them.

Really hoping this site gets saved.
Instead of plunging money into expenses - lets put it into restoration projects that will generate future income - this site, some of the old castles around the place.

Shutuplaura

lostexpectation wrote: »

im just not convinced the building is special how many hours were they in the building, if it had some prechosen buidling for fallback or involved in the planning maybe, it seems to me to random building occupied for hours?

Why would it be any different if it was pre chose? As far as I know it was just a random building. Its significance lies in it being the last headquaters of the leaders, and the decisions regarding surrender were made there. That wouldn't be any different if they had chosen it beforehand. I guess it comes down to thinking if this makes the building significant or not. Personally I do. Its small and can easily be saved so why not keep it, thats my thinking.

Morlar

Shutuplaura wrote: »

Why would it be any different if it was pre chose? As far as I know it was just a random building. Its significance lies in it being the last headquaters of the leaders, and the decisions regarding surrender were made there. That wouldn't be any different if they had chosen it beforehand. I guess it comes down to thinking if this makes the building significant or not. Personally I do. Its small and can easily be saved so why not keep it, thats my thinking.

Could not agree more. No distinction when deciding if the building should be saved or not on the basis of whether it was part of the Rising advance planning or if it was used on the basis of improvisation on the part of the Rebels.

We have enough Malls & shopping centres thank you very much - and if we need more we don't need to knock down buildings which are of historical importance to the founding of the state.

lostexpectation

do the current rising tours stop at this building? (or did they before it was threatened)?

i still would like to know how long they were there?

does anyone have to link to that webpage that had map and guide showing the movements over the 3 days made last year was it done by rte or the national museum.

i think you equally have to look at architecturally even if its only small building we need to keep everyone of those we have left room that era.

look at esb is now planning to knock the hq on fitzwilliam street it built in the seventies by destroying the Georgian street!

Morlar

This is from the independent today :



By Paul Melia

Tuesday April 21 2009

A MASSIVE €1.25bn shopping centre on Ireland's busiest thoroughfare would involve demolishing listed buildings including the site of the last stand of the 1916 rebels, a public hearing was told yesterday.

James Connolly Heron, a relative of 1916 leader James Connolly, voiced his concerns at the plan to redevelop the site of the old Carlton cinema site on Dublin's O'Connell Street.

Developer Joe O'Reilly, through his development company Chartered Land, proposes creating a mixed-use development of 125,000 square metres on a 5.5 acre site bounded by O'Connell Street, Parnell Street and Moore Street.

Two new public streets will be created and three new public squares. There will be 64 apartments, 98 shops, 17 restaurants and the anchor tenant will be the John Lewis department store.

In addition, a 'park in the sky' will be built on the upper storeys -- allowing shoppers to look out over the city. The scheme will be eight-storeys high, and have four basement levels. A theatre and art gallery will also be provided, while the 1916 houses on Moore Street will be converted into a commemorative centre.

But plans to relocate the 1937 art deco facade of what used to be the Carlton cinema have proved controversial. The developers also propose retaining the facades of 12 listed structures, but conservationists say the entire buildings should be protected.

Undermined

The Irish Georgian Society also said it had 'serious concerns' about a proposed public plaza on O'Connell Street which was more a "tolerable, if grandiose, entrance to a shopping mall" rather than a true public space.

The scheme was too tall, and demolishing protected structures would "undermine" the historic streetscape, Emmeline Henderson said.

"To grant permission in its current form would result in the architectural and historic character of O'Connell Street being seriously and irreversibly undermined."

Moore Street traders urged that permission be granted, saying that the derelict nature of much of the site was a "negative feature" and it was a "miracle" that the market had survived.

"If Moore Street is not developed it will die," Ernie Beggs said. "Last year, we lost 15 traders to retirement."

The An Bord Pleanala planning hearing is expected to last for up to a week and objectors include An Taisce, Treasury Holdings, the National Graves Association and Relatives of the Signatories of the Proclamation of Independence.

- Paul Melia

--

I hadnt realised they were talking about the Carlton also - this would be a massive project and there is no reason why their plans need to be that extensive or could not make provision for the 1916 house & carlton etc. They could just as easily come up with a design that would rennovate parts of that area without destroying parts of our heritage in the process.

lostexpectation

the house is right in the middle of their planned new street

luckat

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but this planning appeal is coming up again.

Here's an account of the last stand in those houses:

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/easterrising/friday/

(excerpt): A NURSE, ELIZABETH O'Farrell, had been one of only three women (all members of Cumann na mBan) left in the GPO after Pearse had ordered the others to leave that morning. "We left in three sections, I being in the last. Commandant Pearse was the last to leave the building. He went round to see that no one was left behind. We immediately preceded him, bullets raining from all quarters as we rushed to Moore Lane.

"As I passed the barricade I tripped and fell; in a second a man rushed out of the house on the corner of Moore Lane and Moore Street, where the second section had taken cover, took me up in his arms and rushed back to the house."

"We left the GPO and crossed Henry Street, under fire, into Henry Place," continued Bulfin. "At the junction of Henry Place and Moore Lane, there was a house which we called the "White House". It was a small one-storied slated house as far as I remember, and was being hit by machine gun fire and rifle fire from the top of Moore Lane. We thought that fire was actually coming from the White House. Volunteers, with bayonets, were called on to charge this house and occupy it. It was very duskish, and we could not see very well. There was no cohesion. Nobody seemed to be in charge once we left the post office; it was every man for himself."

Having received the order to evacuate, Oscar Traynor had joined this party. "On entering one of the buildings in the middle of Moore Street we were met by a little family - an old man, a young woman and her children - cowering into the corner of a room, apparently terrified. I tried to reassure these people that they were safe. The old man stated that he was very anxious to secure the safety of his daughter and grandchildren, and that, for that reason, he intended to make an effort to secure other accommodation.

"It was his intention to leave the house under a flag of truce, which, he said, he felt sure would be respected. I did my best to dissuade him from taking this action, especially during hours of darkness. He, however, appeared to be very confident and said he would make the effort.

"I appealed to his daughter not to allow her father to take this action. It appears that he eventually ignored the advice which I gave him, because when we were forming up in Moore Street, preparatory to the surrender, I saw the old man's body lying on the side of the street almost wrapped in a white sheet, which he was apparently using as a flag of truce."

Alongside Pearse, James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett, Thomas Clarke and Seán MacDermott had also escaped from the GPO. They planned to make their way through the streets to the Four Courts garrison for a final battle. Nurse O'Farrell was present. "When I entered the parlour of the house I found some of the members of the provisional government already there, the house well barricaded, and James Connolly lying on a stretcher in the middle of the room. I went over and asked him how he felt; he answered: 'Bad', and remarked: 'The soldier who wounded me did a good day's work for the British government'.

"After a short time the other members of the provisional government came in. Some mattresses were then procured, on which we placed Mr Connolly, and the other wounded men. There were 17 wounded in the retreat from the GPO and I spent the night helping to nurse them. Around us we could hear the roar of burning buildings, machine guns played on teahouses and at intervals what seemed to be hand grenades."

Moving down the street, the rebels occupied buildings, punching their way through the walls. During the evening, The O'Rahilly had led a doomed charge down Henry Street, with most of those men, including himself, wounded or killed.

Seems to me it's an important site.

brianthebard

Seems to make a mockery of the whole listed building system really, what's the point in it if developers can knock listed properties at will? If I owned a listed house this certainly wouldn't encourage me to obey the rules.

walrusgumble

The government, oireachtas in general and city council etc seem to have no qualms returning to their "republican" roots during their annual "pilgrim" to Bodenstown or when the government finally allowed the reburial of the "forgotten 10" in November 2001. Come the anniversary of the 1916 and 1919 years they will be all of praise etc. Yet they now even entertain this threat. Pure disgraceful.

We all realise and accept that this area of our fine capital, one of the most historic street in this country, does need a face life and a renovation but surely its possible to do this and come with more creative ideas than bloody shopping centres, malls and shoe boxed sized apartments?

To some, as seen in papers like the irish & sunday independent, particularily under Anto O'Reilly's time, 1916 may seem to be uncomfortable, particularily with the facts that we know now or are told/reminded (eg it didn't enjoy public support of say 1798, until the British atermaths etc -though people always seem to miss Pearse's point in relation to the rising) but it can not be denied, 1916, for better or for worse was the birth of new nationalism, the conception of this state. It need not be glorified (in order to respect some people's senstivities:rolleyes:) but it's history and presence must not be sabotaged and tarmacamed over and ripped out of existence from our city's streets just to allow some ego's get bigger and wallet's get fatter. Connolly would roll in his grave (though, they ignored him along time ago)

surely,no one now would dare touch the beutiful georgian town houses protected and championed by the likes of Senator David Norris, so why should this happen?

The facts that some of these buildings would be placed into toilets and kitchenettes smacks of sheer disrepect for those who put their lives and liberty on the line to forge for an independent country. How many builders and enterpeurs really had the interests of our country at heart over the years? (to be fair not all were like that, after all they brought billions into our country, jobs, confidence and know how)

We are to spend money on a monument for an American, Ted Kennedy, (and rightly so, may I add, for his work for the Irish people here and in America), yet we try to rub out our forefather's existence?

Even for those who abhor violence, those buildings in Moore St and for those who are aware of the mood that occured there in the last hours of 1916, can act as an indication of the fruility that is war.

CDfm

I don't get this - its an old house and not much to see and lots of other stuff has been pulled down etc. I mean the butchers where your man the o Rahilly died has been redone loads of times.

I dont think its hugely significant

walrusgumble

CDfm wrote: »

I don't get this - its an old house and not much to see and lots of other stuff has been pulled down etc. I mean the butchers where your man the o Rahilly died has been redone loads of times.

I dont think its hugely significant

Funny, foreigners seem to love this kind of thing.

Respectively, the same sentiments could have been said for the Amsterdam home of Ann Frank. (No where in this I am saying or trying to compare the struggles for Independece to a Jewish family, of many thousands who were hunted and treated like dogs by Nazi Germany)

The many concentration camps throughout Poland and Eastern Europe have been kept opened in order for us not to forget the horrors of the Jews and other minorities and the horrors of war. How many people would be gagging to see the gas chambers?

How many of the Georgian Homes in Dublin or the famous underground tunnells are accessible to the public?

Didn't people once question why Kilmainham Jail should be renovated and made open? Look at how many former inmates worked day and night (voluntarily) to refurbish it. - I wonder how many from the Tan War and Civil War who sat what for their deaths would have reacted if they were told that 50 years later they would be coming back to their cells to give it a spurce up.

If Hitler had not burned the famous train carriage where surrender in ww1 was made, wouldn't the French have preserved it?

The significance of the house, as you are aware, is where the decision to surrender was made. Unlike the many muesums that contain many memorabila, this is a building that actually is part of the story. I am sure if money was put aside for the anniversary in 2016, efforts could be made for an interpretation centre especially centred on that rebellion - even including more accounts of the Irish who fought for the British that week. Moreover, Moore St hits home the cold facts that full scale war was basically occurring in the kitchens and door step of the ordinary dublin people - many of their stories seem to be ignorned or forgotten

One of the reasons why the place is in the state it is in is because of people's desire to wash over this period, yet as i have said already, the powers that be have no qualms with revisting their "republican" roots when they are questioned or as a distraction to matters of the day. For all the likely fanfare and woha that will go into the anniversay of 1916, and spurce up of the GPO (whether its the Abbey or not by then) it will look pathetic when visitors are told about the fate of Moore St and the state that it is in.

CDfm

Ooops - I am not a particularly big fan of georgian dublin either.

I see no problem in preserving that one house maybe they can integrate it somehow

my view is that it hasnt been preserved sofar so maybe any restoration will be a facsimile and not the original -maybe it is worth preserving in some format but at the expense of developing the carlton site -no.

I dont get the sentimentality we have for old places like that when we ignored them for so long. Moore St is a bygone era and is in the past.

there are plenty of historical buildings in dublin and you hardly see plaques on the locations of assasination of the cairo gang. you hardly have access to Dublin Castle its mostly offices and state appartments

brianthebard

I'm sorry but to say that buildings and historical monuments which have been previously ignored is a reason to not change that is like saying archeology is not necessary, because pretty much by definition it involves stuff that was previously ignored. In fact if it helps at all you should think about these buildings as unearthed archeology because that's basically what they are.

CDfm

Every building is historical or heritage to somebody but time moves on.

Whenever I see Time Team and I love the recreational side of the programmes it reenforces that view.

I look at some of these things as luxuries and sometimes luxuries we cant afford.

We are a small ,not so well off country, so can we afford it.

Farmleigh and Aras an Uachterain must take up a huge amount of the listed buildings budget. I cant see the point of a lot of this vanity. expenditure on heritage buildings and feel it is out of proportion to a country our size.

Mind you, I would move the government departments out of dublin city centre to industrial estates on the Luas line.

InTheTrees

brianthebard wrote: »

Seems to make a mockery of the whole listed building system really, what's the point in it if developers can knock listed properties at will? If I owned a listed house this certainly wouldn't encourage me to obey the rules.

Exactly.

What the hell does "listed" mean if a property "developer" can come along and demolish it?

If this is the building that they surrendered from then its significant and it should be saved. It should be a prerequisite of granting permission to build the mall that the building is restored and preserved.

CDfm

InTheTrees wrote: »

It should be a prerequisite of granting permission to build the mall that the building is restored and preserved.

Cant you see that there is not a bottomless moneypit for these projects in the way there was in the past. If you can integrate and preserve yes but you have to keep an eye on the cost. I am always astonished at the cost of public buildings etc.

InTheTrees

CDfm wrote: »

Cant you see that there is not a bottomless moneypit for these projects in the way there was in the past. If you can integrate and preserve yes but you have to keep an eye on the cost. I am always astonished at the cost of public buildings etc.

As a part of the whole story it seems like the building they retreated to in the hope of escaping, and then had to surrender from, is important. If its still the same building then I think it should be saved, especially if all the surrounding buildings will be gone.

I realise its easy for me, an armchair leglislator, to dicate a solution but why not put it onto the developer to restore and maintain independant of the gov? Is that even possible?

scudzilla

Unfortunately i'm not Irish, i'm the next best thing....Welsh

I've read through this thread and i find it a disgrace how somebody with enough money can come along and destroy listed building(s) like this.

Don't these idiots who live in there multi million Euro pads, earning there multi million pound salaries realise that once a listed building has gone it's gone for good, they probably think a plaque will be good enough, WELL ARSE TO THAT.

If they get away with this what's next? Changing the name of the Dail to 'THE O2 DAIL'???

Some history and heritage is worth fighting for

InTheTrees

scudzilla wrote: »

Changing the name of the Dail to 'THE O2 DAIL'???

I like it. And we could sell the presidency to Bono...

brianthebard

CDfm wrote: »

Cant you see that there is not a bottomless moneypit for these projects in the way there was in the past. If you can integrate and preserve yes but you have to keep an eye on the cost. I am always astonished at the cost of public buildings etc.

I've said this several times before (on different fora) but you can't just throw away ideology because of an economic downturn. Likewise you can't throw out the countries history and heritage for the same reason. If these things are important in the good times then they are just as important or more so in the bad times. ideology, heritage and culture are what make up our identity, as individuals and as (imagined) communities. Do we really want to be a community for sale?

InTheTrees

It's more than one building isn't it? They broke through the walls trying to move down the street. How many houses did they move through?

walrusgumble

CDfm wrote: »

Ooops - I am not a particularly big fan of georgian dublin either.

I see no problem in preserving that one house maybe they can integrate it somehow

my view is that it hasnt been preserved sofar so maybe any restoration will be a facsimile and not the original -maybe it is worth preserving in some format but at the expense of developing the carlton site -no.

I dont get the sentimentality we have for old places like that when we ignored them for so long. Moore St is a bygone era and is in the past.

there are plenty of historical buildings in dublin and you hardly see plaques on the locations of assasination of the cairo gang. you hardly have access to Dublin Castle its mostly offices and state appartments

dublin castle is still in working use. a fine place to visit may i add. ironic for haughey to have being there for the tribunals, considering the horrors that occurred in the place in the past. in fairness, a fair lot in dublin castle is accessable and the garda muesum is based there.

it has nothing to do with sentimentality its to do with its historical significance. granted, though, particularily with this economic climate, its hard to justify work being done considering the length of time that it has been vacant. but the likes of charlton and city council has a responsibility of respect towards its area.

jesus, imagine if there were plaques dedicated to where the cairo gang ended their lives. the unionists and media would go ape. some idiots / armchair republicans would deface it:rolleyes: and some smart alexs would try and compare it to modern tactics of the ira - how about a plaque to warrenpoint then? - funny enough, their is a plaque high up on a building in talbot st (i think) for sean tracey

walrusgumble

CDfm wrote: »

Every building is historical or heritage to somebody but time moves on.

Whenever I see Time Team and I love the recreational side of the programmes it reenforces that view.

I look at some of these things as luxuries and sometimes luxuries we cant afford.

We are a small ,not so well off country, so can we afford it.

Farmleigh and Aras an Uachterain must take up a huge amount of the listed buildings budget. I cant see the point of a lot of this vanity. expenditure on heritage buildings and feel it is out of proportion to a country our size.

Mind you, I would move the government departments out of dublin city centre to industrial estates on the Luas line.

Ok, but what do you replace them with; more, unneeded (well they may create jobs) spaces for shopping centres - bland, lifeless.quiete naturally, the developers are out to make money, thats what they do (ad create jobs and regenerate for badly needed in fairness) but they won't be concerned for the citizens of dublin. O'Connell St even long before 1916 is one of the most historical streets in the country, its dignity should be preserved. the brits or the french for most part wouldn't allow it to happen to them, so why should we?

what would be in the new development anyway? the 100th mcdonalds, burgerking, spar and any other chain thats can be found no more than 10 minutes walk in either direction of the city?

luckat

The GPO garrison moved through most of the houses of the street, I think, but only three of the houses were preserved when a preservation order was sought.

For those who think there's no point preserving old stuff, and all should be made eternally new - fair point. Not one I'd personally agree with, though.

For those who think the country doesn't have the money to preserve the houses - actually, it wouldn't be any more expensive than siting the toilets of the proposed super-mall there.

It would also be a fantastic tourist draw if the houses were really well preserved and turned into a museum. There's virtually no tourist trail in Dublin, yet when you meet tourists asking the way, they're usually asking for two places: the GPO and Kilmainham Gaol Museum.

These houses could bring a horde of tourists to the O'Connell Street area and give them a real sense of Ireland's foundation, if the preservation is properly done.

Think of your trip to Paris or Boston or Moscow: unless you're just a stag-party visitor, you'll head straight for the revolutionary history. Tourists who come to Dublin want the same, and it could be available to them in the Moore Street houses.