Getting married and affecting your child's choices of schools?

Glowing

Hi there,

I'm getting married next year sometime, and am in the planning stages of a wedding. My fiance and I have always planned to have a civil ceremony because we're not particularly religous, even though both of us have been brought up catholic.

My mother in law today said that by doing that, we'd be limiting our childs choice of school, because they won't be allowed into a Catholic school (or at least put at the end of the list), and that we wouldn't be allowed to baptise the child if we haven't been married in a church.

Is there any truth in this? I'm all on for Educate Together schools but I believe they are few and far between and the waiting lists are long (I'm in Dublin 14/16)

Thanks a lot for your advice ....

Saruman

I have heard plenty of stories like this. Even though it is technically illegal to discriminate on your religion, most schools are catholic (run by the church) and they tend to take Catholic children over non catholic.

Church and state separation is badly needed in this country.

I can not imagine how not getting married in a church prevents you from getting your child baptised though.
Try church of Ireland schools, they do not discriminate against other religions.

littlebug

There are a couple of different issues in your post. Firstly the issue of baptising your child in the catholic church if you haven't been married there. Maybe there are some priests who won't but plenty will without batting an eyelid. My nieces and nephews are all baptised Catholics though their parents weren't married in the CC.

There was a huge thread on here about baptising your child so they could get into a catholic school which was moved to humanities. You may want to go have a look at that but that's a whole other debate:p


The other issue is schools themselves. it depends where you are. Some country schools will grab any child off the street they're so desperate to keep their numbers up. The registration form for my own childs school did ask for her baptismal cert to be included. I never got round to getting it and though it was on the form no one ever actually asked for it or followed up on it. They probably will when it comes to communion time. I understand there are quite a few non catholic children in our local school who just don't partake in the sacraments and as I said not an eyelid has been batted. BUT.. it's a rural school that stuggles to keep the numbers up.... the scenario may be different elsewhere.

spurious

Schools are allowed discriminate under Ireland's 'equality' legislation.
It's because so many of them are not privately owned.

You could fight it, or just play along like most people in your position do. There will be the same nonsense if you want your child to have a First Communion along with the rest of her class. I know schools that insist on parents attending Mass weekly if they've a child in the class. The fact that the majority of parents are playing this game with the priests in the parish is something they are well aware of. The situation where baptism, first communion, confirmation and in many cases marriage are just social occasions nowadays for families is also something that has not escaped the notice of the priests but the hypocrisy continues.

The sooner there is a proper separation of Church and State the better, but it wiill not happen while people play the games.

Glowing

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Yeah, I've heard of many people baptising their kids just so they can get into a school - I don't particularly agree with that, but its REDICULOUS that one would have to go to those lengths just so your child can have an education .... I'd do it if I had to though - for whatever was best for the child.

I didn't realise that about Church of Ireland schools - thanks for that info. Like I said, kids are a bit of way off, but you do need to think of these things in advance I suppose.

Lizzykins

What -they ask you now for your mariage cert as well as child's birth/baptimal cert! Not at all. I'm married but when my kids were enrolled for school all they asked for was the child's birth cert and whether he/she was baptised in the parish.

Glowing

So if you were in the position that you HAD to baptise your child to get into one of your local schools, is there a chance the priest would turn you away because you didn't marry in the church?

parsi

Saruman wrote: »

Try church of Ireland schools, they do not discriminate against other religions.

They do. Our nearest secondary is a Protestant school and their admissions policy lists a fortune of protestant churches/denominations/varieties which have precedence.

Taken from www.ashton.ie :

"2. In relation to religious denomination the following priority is followed:

a. Students who are Church of Ireland (or other Anglican/Episcopalian Churches) or members of Churches which are full ecumenical partners of the Church of Ireland (member churches of the Irish Council of Churches, Churches Together in Britain and Ireland or Conference of European Churches i.e. Belgian/French/Dutch Reformed Church, Congregational Federation, Lutheran Church,* Methodist Church, Moravian Church, Non Subscribing Presbyterian Church, Old Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Presbyterian Church, Religious Society of Friends, the Salvation Army and the United Reformed Church.
b: Students who are members of other established Protestant Churches e.g. Baptist Church and Pentecostal Church.
C: Children of interchurch marriages.
D :Students who are adherents of other faiths. "

littlebug

Glowing wrote: »

So if you were in the position that you HAD to baptise your child to get into one of your local schools, is there a chance the priest would turn you away because you didn't marry in the church?

I imagine there are probably some out there who would turn you away but I also imagine there are many more who wouldn't. That said (and at the risk of starting more debate on this) I wouldn't go out of my way to tell them that was the ONLY reason you were getting the child baptised. I don't think my sister was ever even asked about her marriage... it just wasn't an issue.

DinoBot

parsi wrote: »

They do. Our nearest secondary is a Protestant school and their admissions policy lists a fortune of protestant churches/denominations/varieties which have precedence.

Taken from www.ashton.ie :

"2. In relation to religious denomination the following priority is followed:

a. Students who are Church of Ireland (or other Anglican/Episcopalian Churches) or members of Churches which are full ecumenical partners of the Church of Ireland (member churches of the Irish Council of Churches, Churches Together in Britain and Ireland or Conference of European Churches i.e. Belgian/French/Dutch Reformed Church, Congregational Federation, Lutheran Church,* Methodist Church, Moravian Church, Non Subscribing Presbyterian Church, Old Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Presbyterian Church, Religious Society of Friends, the Salvation Army and the United Reformed Church.
b: Students who are members of other established Protestant Churches e.g. Baptist Church and Pentecostal Church.
C: Children of interchurch marriages.
D :Students who are adherents of other faiths. "

I think you spelt the word discrimination wrong (hee hee)

Plus is there no option for 'no faith' ?

Nevyn

The denominational schools are run for the members of those religious communities.
Living in the parish/cachement area is not long enough to get your child into the school.
As the demand for places goes up those who are active members of the parish and the religious community will get priority. Simply they are allowed to do this.

So yes getting married in the local parish church ( which may mean doing the pre marriage course and attend services for a while prior to the wedding ) and having your children baptised in that church ( which will priorities those married there and members of their religious community ) will then feed into the system of pioritising those children
as members of the religious community when it comes to them being offered a place in a school run by and for members of that religious community.

Thats the system.

There is no primary school in the country which does not have some religious education built into the program. AT least in an E.T. school there is no religious instruction and children do not have to prays at the start of the day, grace before lunch and do not have religious over tones in English home work and art projects, never mind being in the minority when it comes to not taking part in religious rites.

Saruman

parsi wrote: »

They do. Our nearest secondary is a Protestant school and their admissions policy lists a fortune of protestant churches/denominations/varieties which have precedence.

Wow i did not think they had a formal register like Catholics. You know baptismal certs and communion etc.

Nevyn

Saruman wrote: »

Wow i did not think they had a formal register like Catholics. You know baptismal certs and communion etc.

Who says it has to be that formal, if they and/or their family's names or faces are not know to the Rev or Pastor then they can be said not to be of good standing in the flock. Being a member is more then a rubber stamp in some places it is at least turning up and taking part on some level.

Scoobydoobydoo

Saruman wrote: »

I have heard plenty of stories like this. Even though it is technically illegal to discriminate on your religion, most schools are catholic (run by the church) and they tend to take Catholic children over non catholic.

Church and state separation is badly needed in this country.

I can not imagine how not getting married in a church prevents you from getting your child baptised though.
Try church of Ireland schools, they do not discriminate against other religions.[/QUOTE]

My son, who is Catholic, attends a Protestant school, and they discriminate openly. They make it clear before you apply that priority is given to any and all Protestant denominations, so we knew that he'd be bottom of the list and could be skipped by another student at any stage.

Dades

I know a couple who agreed to convert to COI to get their kids into the local school. They also had to get involved in community activities and whatnot. So they are even pickier than the RC schools!

To the OP, you are dead right to think ahead. However as you and your partner are of the same 'frame of mind', as least you have one less problem than many . Marry wherever you wish, and if you want to play the game and baptise your younglings then you will find a way to do it at the time.

Kildrought

they discriminate openly

I'll second that.

Even to the degree of appointing Team Captains, Prefects and Heads of School (Head Girl/Head Boy). One school that I know of will only award entrance scholarships to those of a COI faith.

CapedCrusader

Welcome to Dark Ages Ireland where your choice of wedding and whether your child is baptised or not all affect the educational choices for your children.

And we're perpetuating this nonsense by playing along with it, by baptising our kids and getting married in Catholic churches, just so our kids can go to school.

Ridiculous!

DinoBot

CapedCrusader wrote: »

And we're perpetuating this nonsense by playing along with it, by baptising our kids and getting married in ROI churches, just so our kids can go to school.

Ridiculous!

I could not agree more !

People really need to stand up and be counted. Whats the point of complaining about the system and then just play along with it ?

Nevyn

cos it benefits them in the short term.

smelltheglove

I have never heard this. My daughter got into 2 catholic schools even though I was unmarried, I dont think schools take marital status seriously anymore.

Nevyn

smelltheglove wrote: »

I have never heard this. My daughter got into 2 catholic schools even though I was unmarried, I dont think schools take marital status seriously anymore.

It depends on the demand for places in the school.

delly

Myself and my wife are traditional Irish kids, brought up to be Catholic. We are both very anti religion, but at the same time understand it being a very important thing for people who are religious.

I got married in a civil ceremony back in 2002, and some eyebrows were raised among extended family etc., but thats they way we wanted it and never even considered a church wedding.

There was even more eyebrows raised last year when we had our first girl and didn't get her baptised. We never even considered getting her baptised to get into a school, and at this stage we didn't even know what type of schools were nearby. In turns out that we have a Gaelscoill and an Educate Together school very close by, which is very lucky.

If in 16 years time my daughter wants to get baptised, and has done her homework, then I would support her 100%. I just feel however that religion is such an important thing, that it shouldn't be engaged in lightly, both for marriage or baptism.

smelltheglove

Thaedydal wrote: »

It depends on the demand for places in the school.

The school she is in now was the only school in the whole area with 1 place left. We live in Lucan, demand is very very high, unless you guys are talking small country schools, I have not come across it nor has my mother who is unmarried with 1 child in dublin 15 again desperate circumstances over there for schools.

Bally8

Glowing wrote: »

we wouldn't be allowed to baptise the child if we haven't been married in a church.
quote]

I think its very rare to find a priest who wont babtise a child if the parents havent been married in the church. I could be wrong but from my personal experience, I was a 19 year old single mother and the priest had no problem baptising my daughter.

Im getting married next year in Las Vegas and never even considered that this could be a reason to prevent future children of mine getting baptised.

I believe in baptising children and allowing them have their communion and confirmation. At those ages one of the most important things to a child is fitting in and by preventing them from being part of those rituals I feel parents are putting their own anti- church feelings above their childs.

delly

Bally8 wrote: »

I believe in baptising children and allowing them have their communion and confirmation. At those ages one of the most important things to a child is fitting in and by preventing them from being part of those rituals I feel parents are putting their own anti- church feelings above their childs.

That may have been the case 15 years ago, but with the amount if mixed races here now, fitting in could mean becoming a Muslim, painting your child black, speaking Polish. Obviously i'm being sarcastic when I say the above, but if your going to decide your childs religion just to 'fit in', what else will you do to conform?

Bally8

I get your point but in my own case my daughter is mixed race and has had some hard times over it- she just wants to be like the other girls. I didnt want to cause her any more hardship by being left out while the rest of the class prepared for the communion. I see nothing wrong with what I did for her but yes I can see your point too

Dades

Bally8 wrote: »

I believe in baptising children and allowing them have their communion and confirmation. At those ages one of the most important things to a child is fitting in and by preventing them from being part of those rituals I feel parents are putting their own anti- church feelings above their childs.

Those rituals can seem harmless from the outside, and I do appreciate the idea of allowing your kids to be part of the crowd.

But if you sat down and read what they are taught as fact before each sacrament you might think twice. I don't want my daughter, when she's aged 8 or whatever, to be prepped to go into a private booth and confess her "sins" to a stranger in a robe, so that she might avoid going to hell.

These things aren't just white dresses and trips to the zoo.

axer

It is a wonder no one has challenged the government providing a lack of education. Has no case been taking to the high court or European Court of Justice?

BUNREACHT NA h&#201 wrote: »

Article 42
4. The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

There is a constitutional right for every irish citizen to free primary education.

axer

Dades wrote: »

Those rituals can seem harmless from the outside, and I do appreciate the idea of allowing your kids to be part of the crowd.

But if you sat down and read what they are taught as fact before each sacrament you might think twice. I don't want my daughter, when she's aged 8 or whatever, to be prepped to go into a private booth and confess her "sins" to a stranger in a robe, so that she might avoid going to hell.

These things aren't just white dresses and trips to the zoo.

Exactly, they mix religious teachings with factual teachings e.g. they could be teaching maths or history and then religion as if they are in the same factual context.

Ludo

Same stuff all discussed here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055398302

Glowing

My main issue with the catholic church is their stance on homosexuality and birth control. I don't want my child associated with an organisation with those beliefs. It's wrong. Its not that I'm not religous or don't believe in god, it's the catholic church I have an issue with.

Of course I wouldn't want my child to feel left out at school which is why I'd prefer an ET school, but in the case that there are only catholic schools to choose from in my area, it looks like I don't have any other option but to have him or her baptised. I know we should all stand up for what we believe in and make a stance, but when it comes down to it, I'm not going to jeopardise my kids happiness or education for my own principals.