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    #62
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    djpbarry wrote:
    You did read the title of the article, didn't you?
    I did read the title of the article. 100,000 workers leave Ireland as pressure on jobs grow. Did you read the article?
    immigrant numbers remain at record levels
    Integration Minister Conor Lenihan said the new shortfall in jobs is leading to "tensions" among jobseekers.
    He said the fact that Irish people are now competing for low-skills jobs with non-nationals is creating potential for friction between different ethic groups.
    In the first ten months of the year, almost 140,000 new PPS numbers were issued to non-nationals, suggesting that there is still a surplus entering the country.
    "There is potential for tension because people project their anger on to ethnic groups when they see their friends, uncles and aunts losing their jobs," he said.
    It is believed nearly one-in-five people receiving dole payments is a non-national. Some 44,600 people from overseas are on the Live Registrar, a 68pc increase between January and October.
    Immigrants make up an estimated 12pc of the population.
    Non-Irish people fill 15pc of all jobs and 10pc of primary school children are from immigrant families.
    If large numbers of foreigners are leaving the country then I, like you, welcome that. It will make it easier for us to reduce unemployment because the competition for jobs won't be as intense. It will also mean that we will have to spend less of our taxes supporting people on the dole and with the size of the deficit we really can't afford to to be expending so much money on social welfare payments. We need to balance the numbers leaving against the number of people entering the country though. Last year, although 100,000 people left the country, over 100,000 entered the country and so there was no net reduction in the number of people here. The figures for this year show that around 15,000 PPS numbers have already been issued to non-nationals in the first two months of the year. If that rate continues for the rest of the year then that means we could see an influx of around 90,000 people this year. Even if there is a net reduction in numbers this year it probably won't be high enough to make up for the yearly net increases of the last few years. We will still have many more people in our country competing for a continuously shrinking number of jobs. If we restricted immigration then that would lead to a massive net reduction in the number of non-nationals in the country. The same number of people would be leaving but very few people would be entering and so that would maximise the outflow. As the Economist magazine has pointed out, a net reduction of 20,000 in the number of non-nationals in our labour market could lead to a 1% fall in unemployment. If the moderate, mainstream parties don't do something about this problem soon then they might find themselves losing out to parties who are prepared to do something about it. Would you really like to see a party led by someone like me being given an opportunity to save the nation? Because it wouldn't be the first time that something like this has happened.
    djpbarry wrote:
    It has been pointed out to you in several other threads why the number PPSN's issued is not a very accurate means of measuring immigration, hasn't it?
    I think we both know that the number of PPS numbers issued to non-nationals is a good indication of the number of foreigners entering the country. I can't think of a better explanation for why so many non-nationals would be applying for them. Can you?
    sovtek wrote:
    You need immigrants to keep coming to ireland.
    Immigration has been too high over the last few years. The percentage of the population made up of Irish people has fallen below 90% of the total in the space of a decade. That's just too much. Now that we're in a severe recession (probably a depression) our economy is not creating enough jobs for the unemployed people and for the immigrants to fill and so we can't afford to have an immigration system that allows millions of low-wage workers from eastern Europe to have complete access to our labour market. The Americans tightened their immigration system a few years before the onset of their great depression. If they hadn't done that then then their economic problems would have been much worse. Mass immigration is just not in our economic interest and is bound to lead to a backlash against innocent foreign workers already in this country.


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    #63
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    seamus wrote: »
    Market forces will always prevail, the workers are irrelevant.

    Fixed that for you.


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    #64
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    NekkidBibleMan wrote: »
    Oh, I forgot. Companies aren't laying off workers because they're in threat of going to the wall. It's because companies are evil and just want to screw the worker.

    Wake up.

    Tis but one of many examples. Methinks tis not I that needs to "wake up".

    http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jan2009/db20090126_540552.htm?campaign_id=rss_daily
    Nevertheless, cost-cutting there will be. Pfizer expects to achieve about $4 billion in "synergies" by 2012, enabling it to reduce the combined workforce of the two companies by 15%, or some 20,000 jobs. As part of those synergies, Pfizer announced Monday that it will eliminate 8,000 jobs, 10% of its workforce. It is closing five of its 46 manufacturing plants.


    http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/04/17/pfizer-pfe-reports-disappointing-q1-earnings-on-weak-drug-sale/
    The company said its quarterly profit dropped to $2.78 billion, or 41 cents per share on strong generic competition


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    #65
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    O'Morris wrote: »
    Last year, although 100,000 people left the country, over 100,000 entered the country and so there was no net reduction in the number of people here.
    Over 100,000 people entered the country last year? How many are still here? I would be amazed if inward migration topped 100k in 2008.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    The figures for this year show that around 15,000 PPS numbers have already been issued to non-nationals in the first two months of the year. If that rate continues for the rest of the year then that means we could see an influx of around 90,000 people this year.
    Why do you persist with this nonsense? Historically, the number of PPS numbers issued in a given period is far, far higher than the number of immigrants received during the same period.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    I think we both know that the number of PPS numbers issued to non-nationals is a good indication of the number of foreigners entering the country.
    It isn't. How many people in Ireland do you suppose have US social security numbers? I'm one of them, and I'm not a US immigrant. Go figure.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    The percentage of the population made up of Irish people has fallen below 90% of the total in the space of a decade.
    This is basically all you're concerned about. I don't know why you attempt to dress it up with pseudo-economic arguments.


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    #66
    MySelf56
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭MySelf56


    O'Morris wrote: »
    I can't think of a better explanation for why so many non-nationals would be applying for them. Can you? Immigration has been too high over the last few years.

    My wife is non national to be precise non-eu, she dont have work permit yet so she cant work(unless we want mess Justice dept). But still we applied for a PPS number because we need it for my tax purpose for join assesment.

    If poles/ee immigrants left the country all the GYM's will shutdown with in SECONDS and more empty shoe box apartments will pile up in the over saturated market. What do you suggest to fill these shoe box apartments then? surely celtic tiger cubs prefer 3 to 4 hours commuting from Dublin-107 with non existent ammenities rather then suitable apartment in dublin.

    To all other whining about Dole payments dont get it, it is obvious that social welfare payments will be recievable only if you contributed. so whats the fuss all about anyway?? What actually do you all suggest??

    Have any body ever wonder why there are small amount able bodies on dole on height of celtic tiger roar.


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    #67
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    djpbarry wrote:
    Over 100,000 people entered the country last year? How many are still here?
    I don't know. Nobody knows for sure. That's the problem, we have so many people entering and leaving the country that it's impossible to know for sure how many are still here.
    djpbarry wrote:
    I would be amazed if inward migration topped 100k in 2008.
    And if it is found to have topped 100k? Would you agree with me that that's too many people for us to be taking when we have so many people out of work?
    djpbarry wrote:
    Why do you persist with this nonsense?
    I will persist with this nonsense until you or anyone else can give me a better explanation for why so many PPS numbers are being issued to non-nationals. If it's not people entering the country then what is it? Who are the non-nationals applying for all these PPS numbers and when did they enter the country? Why are the applying for PPS numbers to work in this country rather than returning home? We're in a severe recession and we've hundreds of thousands of people out of work yet we still have thousands of non-nationals applying for PPS numbers. Why is that?
    djpbarry wrote:
    Historically, the number of PPS numbers issued in a given period is far, far higher than the number of immigrants received during the same period.
    I wasn't aware that the number of PPS numbers issued to non-nationals is usually far higher than the number of immigrants received. Can you give any examples of this. How much of a difference on average is there between the two?
    djpbarry wrote:
    It isn't.
    I think it is. I think most of the non-nationals who received PPS numbers in the last two months were people newly arrived in the country. I might be wrong about that but I'd be interested in seeing anyone give a better explanation for why so many people are still applying for them.
    djpbarry wrote:
    How many people in Ireland do you suppose have US social security numbers? I'm one of them, and I'm not a US immigrant. Go figure.
    You have to provide proof of residence in this country before you can get a PPS number.
    djpbarry wrote:
    This is basically all you're concerned about.
    I want Ireland to be an Irish country in a hundred years from now. I don't think it will be possible for us to assimilate these hundreds of thousands of non-nationals into our population and so I don't think we will be an Irish country in a hundred years if we don't take action to deal with this problem soon. That doesn't mean that there isn't a strong economic argument for restricting immigration. I think the recession is much more difficult to deal with when we have so many people in the country competing for such a small number of jobs. There are potentially millions of low-wage workers who have the means and the incentive to come to this country and apply for any job in this country that an unemployed Irish person can apply for. We know from the experience of the last few months that huge numbers of people are still entering this country despite the bad state of the economy. How can we hope to effectively deal with unemployment in these circumstances?
    djpbarry wrote:
    I don't know why you attempt to dress it up with pseudo-economic arguments.
    It's not a pseudo-economic argument djpbarry. It's a high-tech, Adam Smith type of economic argument. We simply don't have enough jobs for the unemployed people in this country and for the thousands of non-nationals who are entering the country each month. The greater the competition for jobs, the more difficult it will be for people on the dole to get back into employment.
    MySelf56 wrote:
    My wife is non national to be precise non-eu, she dont have work permit yet so she cant work(unless we want mess Justice dept). But still we applied for a PPS number because we need it for my tax purpose for join assesment.
    And do you think that more of those 15,000 non-nationals applying for PPS numbers in the last two months would fit into the same category as your wife than would fit in the category of an immigrant recently arrived in the country?
    If poles/ee immigrants left the country all the GYM's will shutdown with in SECONDS and more empty shoe box apartments will pile up in the over saturated market.
    As David McWilliams has pointed out before, if thousands of Poles and other immigrants leave the country then there would be a fall in rent prices as the competition for rented accomodation wouldn't be as great. That would greatly benefit low-wage workers in this country who will have to spend less of their disposable income on rent.
    MySelf56 wrote:
    What do you suggest to fill these shoe box apartments then?
    Irish people who weren't able to afford them at their hugely inflated prices of 2 or 3 years ago?
    MySelf56 wrote:
    To all other whining about Dole payments dont get it, it is obvious that social welfare payments will be recievable only if you contributed. so whats the fuss all about anyway??
    Just because someone has contributed doesn't mean they have contributed enough to cover the amount of money that they get back in welfare payments. Most immigrants work in low-paid jobs and so they would have paid very little tax. They will probably get more money out of the system than they have put in. And even if the Doles on the pole are just getting back what they've already put in, it just shows that the immigrants haven't really contributed all that much to our economy after all. They might have contributed money in taxes but they're taking a lot of money out of the system as well in the form of dole payments.
    MySelf56 wrote:
    What actually do you all suggest??
    I would suggest that we act like a sovereign country and regain control of our borders. I don't think it's in our economic interest to be part of a common labour market with millions of low-wage workers who are used to working for a fraction of the wage that we work for. It would be like the United States lifting the restrictions on the Mexicans during their recession. It's just not a good idea at all at all.


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    #68
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    Simple-minded racism there by O Morris. "A High-tech Adam Smith type argument"........? How old are you?


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    #69
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Wheely wrote: »
    Simple-minded racism there by O Morris. "A High-tech Adam Smith type argument"........? How old are you?
    Next comes his usual "they will not integrate into our culture" and his inability to explain what this alleged culture entails :rolleyes:


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    #70
    population
    Registered Users Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭population


    Lol:D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd8oX5NJt84

    Suppose people have to be adaptable in tricky times:D


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    #71
    MySelf56
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭MySelf56


    O'Morris wrote: »
    ....

    Just because someone has contributed doesn't mean they have contributed enough to cover the amount of money that they get back in welfare payments. Most immigrants work in low-paid jobs and so they would have paid very little tax. They will probably get more money out of the system than they have put in. And even if the Doles on the pole are just getting back what they've already put in, it just shows that the immigrants haven't really contributed all that much to our economy after all. They might have contributed money in taxes but they're taking a lot of money out of the system as well in the form of dole payments.

    Do you have any statics in your hand? Other wise you could launch information request from Social welfare by using www.foi.ie
    You surely have blinkers in your eyes, by brushing everything under carpet by using “Low-Paid” immigrants. You are really looking down on your fellow human being

    Do you think Indian/Philpines nurses low paid?
    Do you think foreign national GP's are are also low paid?
    Do you think non national high skilled work force as IT analysts in MNC's are low paid?

    I could give so many examples as length of Glenda Glesson Legs..

    O'Morris wrote: »
    As David McWilliams has pointed out before, if thousands of Poles and other immigrants leave the country then there would be a fall in rent prices as the competition for rented accommodation wouldn't be as great. That would greatly benefit low-wage workers in this country who will have to spend less of their disposable income on rent.
    Could you point out which article he said that to you? Please dont mix David Mcwilliams into this, he has nothing do with xenophobia (“foriegners are taking your jobs”). Your taking rubbish at this point. You dont have slightest clue how many empty houses are available? Enlighten your self by clicking the following link??
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-rules-may-force-firesale-of-70000-houses-1591086.html
    O'Morris wrote: »
    I would suggest that we act like a sovereign country and regain control of our borders. I don't think it's in our economic interest to be part of a common labour market with millions of low-wage workers who are used to working for a fraction of the wage that we work for. It would be like the United States lifting the restrictions on the Mexicans during their recession. It's just not a good idea at all at all.

    Typical, you just can't use the word United States ever ever again. Dogs in the street know how United States built. Leave the United States out of it for the time being. When Ireland lost its sovereignty or border control?

    Our govt. in control how many number of working visa/work permits required.
    Our govt. in control citizenship, immigration laws as they like. No body forces it.

    Spit out what actually you mean border control not just coining the phrase is not suffice?


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    #72
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    O'Morris wrote: »
    I don't know. Nobody knows for sure. That's the problem...
    It’s a problem if you want it to be a problem.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    And if it is found to have topped 100k?
    If it is not? If it is found to have topped 500k? 1000k? This is all meaningless unless you start backing up your “arguments” with facts and figures.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    I will persist with this nonsense until you or anyone else can give me a better explanation for why so many PPS numbers are being issued to non-nationals.
    Things that a PPS number is required for:
    • All social welfare services
    • The Free Travel Pass
    • Pupil ID
    • Public health services, including the medical card and the Drugs Payment Scheme
    • Child immunisation
    • Schemes run by the Revenue Commissioners, such as Mortgage Interest Relief
    • Housing grants
    • Driver Theory Testing and driver licences
    O'Morris wrote: »
    I wasn't aware that the number of PPS numbers issued to non-nationals is usually far higher than the number of immigrants received. Can you give any examples of this. How much of a difference on average is there between the two?
    Number of immigrants received from 2002 – 2007 (inclusive): approximately 490,000 (300k net)

    Number of PPS numbers issued to non-Irish citizens during that time period: approximately 840,000 (source)
    O'Morris wrote: »
    You have to provide proof of residence in this country before you can get a PPS number.
    So?
    O'Morris wrote: »
    I don't think it will be possible for us to assimilate these hundreds of thousands of non-nationals into our population and so I don't think we will be an Irish country in a hundred years if we don't take action to deal with this problem soon.
    ...
    I think the recession is much more difficult to deal with when we have so many people in the country competing for such a small number of jobs.
    What you “think” is not all that relevant to this discussion.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    We know from the experience of the last few months that huge numbers of people are still entering this country despite the bad state of the economy.
    How do we know that?
    O'Morris wrote: »
    As David McWilliams has pointed out before, if thousands of Poles and other immigrants leave the country then there would be a fall in rent prices as the competition for rented accomodation wouldn't be as great.
    Competition for rented accommodation? What country are we talking about now?

    “ The supply of rental properties has soared but demand has fallen off as migrant workers leave the country.

    This has left some investors in the nightmare scenario of being unable to find tenants and having to service the entire mortgage on a property that is falling in value.
    ...
    It is estimated that as many as 35,000 new homes lie empty across the State.    ”

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0116/1231974457395.html
    O'Morris wrote: »
    I think Most immigrants work in low-paid jobs and so they would have paid very little tax. I think They will probably get more money out of the system than they have put in. And I think even if the Doles on the pole are just getting back what they've already put in, it just shows that the immigrants haven't really contributed all that much to our economy after all. I think They might have contributed money in taxes but they're taking a lot of money out of the system as well in the form of dole payments.
    Fixed that for you.


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    #73
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    O'Morris wrote: »
    cover the amount of money that they get back in welfare payments. Most immigrants work in low-paid jobs and so they would have paid very little tax.on the Mexicans during their recession. It's just not a good idea at all at all.

    The employer pays 8.5 or 10.75% PRSI. The fact that they pay no tax or employee PRSI on that, isn't their fault.

    It's a Union fault.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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