if this gets any worse

Irlbo

Pardon the French,but to be blunt,this talk about the economy is aload of b*llox,especially is terms of a working class persception,working class communties are still in the same boat they were back in the bad old days of the 80's,and there was no boom or any advantage for working class communities,so who is this 'recession' affecting?,greedy rich business tycoons hiring off the boat immigrants for minimum wage,and builders tradesmen(electricians,brickies,plumbers,etc) getting paid nearly a grand and a half a week while they had apprentices getting paid less then 300 a week doing all the work,these are the people to blame for this 'recession'' which has caused a major panic among the middle class,who while there are no visible signs of any economic downturn,are coldly firing all their employees to be on safe side,I think the only market and idustry thats been affected is the building industry,I think the rest is a big media invented smokescreen,the newspaper business is thriving

Sleipnir

Irlbo wrote: »

especially is terms of a working class persception,working class communties are still in the same boat they were back in the bad old days

Irlbo wrote: »

builders tradesmen(electricians,brickies,plumbers,etc) getting paid nearly a grand and a half a week

Tradesmen weren't/aren't working class? Were they considered middle class in the 80's?

SkepticOne

Irlbo wrote: »

are coldly firing all their employees to be on safe side

There's your working class being affected.

Sleipnir

SkepticOne wrote: »

There's your working class being affected.

Lot's of people are being let go, not just working class. Also, to say that working class people got no benefit from the boom and are in the same state they were in during the 80's is bull****.

molloyjh

mike65 wrote: »

If you are advocating a Statist economy then we would never have had a boom to bust.

Ideally we wouldn't have booms or busts, as one does not exist without the other. I'd rather a constant happy medium if at all possible! The State has the responsibility to intervene in certain areas in the interests of the public. They do it with our personal lives, e.g. criminal law etc, and they have as much responsibility in the corporate arena as the social one, given that either could have devastating effects on our society if left unchecked. Its just a case of getting the right balance. Which will be hard to do when the building industry, I mean FF, are in power.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I know it's a crazy, radical thought, but: maybe we should vote for someone else?

Sure, the next scheduled election isn't for a few years, but if our memories are that short then we don't deserve decent government.

Amen!

DublinWriter wrote: »

First we take Finglas,
Then we take Berlin.

Nodin wrote: »

I'd feel a bit better about it if we could have a crack at Berlin first...Get a bit of practice in.

Agree with Nodin. Berlin first and work up to Finglas!

the_syco wrote: »

Vote for who else? The opposition tells us how bad the government is, but doesn't really say how it'd fix it, other than "we'll do better"...

At the end of the day the current shower have proven unable or unwilling to foresee and prevent many of the indiginous economic issues even though it was obvious they were coming. They instead saw fit to profiteer off it regardless of what that meant long term. To me it doesn't matter how good or bad the alternative is, we need to send a message to all of our politicians, not just FF, telling them we will not accept that kind of performance. By allowing them stay on we're sending the opposite message.

jmayo wrote: »

If the Irish people fall for this sh***, then we do really deserve to be screwed over by the Molloys, Fitzpatricks, Nearys, Drumms, Lawlors, Dunne, Flynns, Berties of this world.

Myabe this government of ours really do need mass protest to realise that they can't continue giving out golden handshakes to ex public employees that shafted taxpayers by wasting their money e.g. Molloy and Neary.

Agreed. But not all us Molloys are dodgy...honest!

oscarBravo wrote: »

Or you can take the quintessentially Irish approach, and bitch about the situation without doing anything about it.

Ah yes, the default position. A lot of people talk about the death of outrage, I'm not sure we ever caught onto it here enough for it to ever die!

Irlbo

Sleipnir wrote: »

Lot's of people are being let go, not just working class. Also, to say that working class people got no benefit from the boom and are in the same state they were in during the 80's is bull****.

Take a stroll down through Dominick Street,St Michaels estate,St Teresas gardens,O'Devaney gardens and other inner city communities within Dublins and tell me that,even in some remote areas within rural Ireland

Irlbo

Sleipnir wrote: »

Tradesmen weren't/aren't working class? Were they considered middle class in the 80's?

I dont call anyone working class who charges or is paid nearly an exortionate 2000 per week for work which is mainly done be trainess getting paid nothing,they dug their own holes,took advantage and got too greedy

Irlbo

SkepticOne wrote: »

There's your working class being affected.

Exactly but thats always been the case.they just get on with it,its always been a recession for them

jmayo

Irlbo wrote: »

I dont call anyone working class who charges or is paid nearly an exortionate 2000 per week for work which is mainly done be trainess getting paid nothing,they dug their own holes,took advantage and got too greedy

Irlbo wrote: »

Exactly but thats always been the case.they just get on with it,its always been a recession for them

Irlbo wrote: »

Take a stroll down through Dominick Street,St Michaels estate,St Teresas gardens,O'Devaney gardens and other inner city communities within Dublins and tell me that,even in some remote areas within rural Ireland

I think some of the ones you are describing are the habitual non-working class.
Builders, brickies, plumbers are of course some other class of people ?
We might not have liked their prices but at least they got out there and worked.
Using your criteria anyone that worked is middle class, anyone that made money and try to move forward is greedy.
Yes there was lots of greed but there were also the ones who still hung around and wouldn't work.
The ones who spend their time on the dole, even when there was nearly full
employment in this country.
The reason we did have foriegn workers coming in here was some of these your so called working classes refused to get off their ar** and work.
A lot of areas are always blaming someone else for the fact that they are sh**holes, the few locals who do give a damm, who try and make them better are often left hung out to dry.

The Corinthian

Irlbo wrote: »

Exactly but thats always been the case.they just get on with it,its always been a recession for them

Boo hoo. I think something needs to be pointed out to the wider audience - when the term 'working' class is used, Irlbo seems to be pointing at are actually mainly the 'unemployed' class.

And I'd agree, the Celtic Tiger did not benefit them, as the divide between rich and poor increased, their lot would have gotten relatively worse. But that's where any agreement between us ends, because I don't believe that the 'unemployed' class should benefit from a boom. If one seeks a meritocracy and complains about corruption at the top, you can't then condone handouts at the bottom as that isn't meritocratic either.

FTA69

Irlbo wrote: »

Pardon the French,but to be blunt,this talk about the economy is aload of b*llox,especially is terms of a working class persception,working class communties are still in the same boat they were back in the bad old days of the 80's,and there was no boom or any advantage for working class communities,so who is this 'recession' affecting?,greedy rich business tycoons hiring off the boat immigrants for minimum wage,and builders tradesmen(electricians,brickies,plumbers,etc) getting paid nearly a grand and a half a week while they had apprentices getting paid less then 300 a week doing all the work,these are the people to blame for this 'recession'' which has caused a major panic among the middle class,who while there are no visible signs of any economic downturn,are coldly firing all their employees to be on safe side,I think the only market and idustry thats been affected is the building industry,I think the rest is a big media invented smokescreen,the newspaper business is thriving

True enough, those who were already deprived didn't gain much at all. Personally I find the whole furore over this collapse a bit abstract from my point of view, me or my family had nothing to begin with, and we have nothing now.

However, during the boom years those in deprived urban areas could always pick up a decent enough wage labouring in construction; likewise many had the oppurtunity to enter FÁS and pick up some sort of a skill. It mightn't be much good to them here, but it'll serve them well when they have to go abroad. I do agree with the basic thrust of your point though, the deprived working class were left in the mire, many were and are living just above the poverty line with many being two paychecks away from destitution. Meanwhile the minority who made a killing in this country were running around telling us how nobody had it better.

Irlbo

The Corinthian wrote: »

Boo hoo. I think something needs to be pointed out to the wider audience - when the term 'working' class is used, Irlbo seems to be pointing at are actually mainly the 'unemployed' class.

And I'd agree, the Celtic Tiger did not benefit them, as the divide between rich and poor increased, their lot would have gotten relatively worse. But that's where any agreement between us ends, because I don't believe that the 'unemployed' class should benefit from a boom. If one seeks a meritocracy and complains about corruption at the top, you can't then condone handouts at the bottom as that isn't meritocratic either.

That comment reeks of snobbery and of ignorance,you obviously know nothing of the problems associated with the working class or the 'unemployed' class as you call it,the term is so offensive I havent the words for it,you assume that someone from a certain area or an entire community is unemployed,its not as if people from a working class background are born not wanting to work,and live to be on the dole,when your born in certain areas or estates within Dublin,or Im sure in certain places in different parts of the country your automatically at a disadvantage,Im not saying everyone from that background is never going to get ahead,just its very tough,I know all too well myself,look at the statistics for fee paying schools versus public schools in disadvantaged area's,nearly all fee paying schooled students go on to the major colleges wheras in the public section a mere fraction get that luxary,'sh*tholes'(and I do agree with that description) have been getting a raw deal for too long,look whats going on in alot of inner city flat complexs with this 'regeneration' project,the residents were promised 'paradises' with schools,community centres,playgrounds and aload of other bullsh*t,people were forcibly moved from their homes while their homes they were born and reared in were torn down,then work stopped,the builders to carry out the scheme pulled out,so a whole community of people,left stranded in strange temporary dwellings,we are run by a collection of upturned nose snobs,who couldnt give two sh*ts about the working classes

The Corinthian

Irlbo wrote: »

That comment reeks of snobbery and of ignorance,you obviously know nothing of the problems associated with the working class or the 'unemployed' class as you call it,the term is so offensive I havent the words for it,you assume that someone from a certain area or an entire community is unemployed,its not as if people from a working class background are born not wanting to work,and live to be on the dole,when your born in certain areas or estates within Dublin,or Im sure in certain places in different parts of the country your automatically at a disadvantage,Im not saying everyone from that background is never going to get ahead,just its very tough,I know all too well myself,look at the statistics for fee paying schools versus public schools in disadvantaged area's,nearly all fee paying schooled students go on to the major colleges wheras in the public section a mere fraction get that luxary,'sh*tholes'(and I do agree with that description) have been getting a raw deal for too long,look whats going on in alot of inner city flat complexs with this 'regeneration' project,the residents were promised 'paradises' with schools,community centres,playgrounds and aload of other bullsh*t,people were forcibly moved from their homes while their homes they were born and reared in were torn down,then work stopped,the builders to carry out the scheme pulled out,so a whole community of people,left stranded in strange temporary dwellings,we are run by a collection of upturned nose snobs,who couldnt give two sh*ts about the working classes

Get off the cross, someone needs the wood.

This culture of victim hood is pathetic. No one denies that people born in certain communities, especially in the inner city, are at a disadvantge. However, what is often ignored is that much of that disadvantage is self inflicted. When two years ago Fas sent out invitations to interview to several hundred unemployed people from one inner city area, only one turned up. The rich didn't 'deny' them an opportunity. They decided themselves.

Even when people from such areas do better their situation, then they often face ostracization from their former peers, who condemn them for "thinking they're better than us". I have friends who have been in this situation and they have nothing but contempt for the culture of dependency and self-pity that permeates this sub culture.

And of course it's always somebody else's fault. The government, the rich, the foreigners. It's their fault that claims against the corpo and signing on are the norm. It's their fault that education, training or any opportunity is shunned and anyone who dares to break with this is treated with suspicion. It's always somebody else's fault.

So spare me. Spare us all.

gurramok

If anyone did not see, youth unemployment(under 25) is sky high here and due to get higher.
In the past, alot of that youth emigrated when there was no hope of a job, that safety valve is not there for 2009 at least.

So what we have is lots of young men with nothing to do. A certain crime wave from 1985 comes to mind, so social unrest or a riot of some sort cannot be ruled out as the unemployment rate skyrockets this year.

SkepticOne

Irlbo, how do you define working class?

Traditionally "working class" would have meant those in non-managerial jobs. These people have suffered in the current recession with many having to take pay cuts, short time arrangements or redundancy. There was a massive expansion of non-managerial jobs during the boom to the extent that hundreds of thousands of immigrants found jobs. Working class people who benefited from the opportunities due to this massive expansion are now suffering from the downturn.

Of course there are the long term unemployed. Even if you consider them as part of the working class, they would still only make up a small minority during the boom, and even they will suffer if social welfare is cut back or stopped.

asdasd

Traditionally "working class" would have meant those in non-managerial jobs. These people have suffered in the current recession with many having to take pay cuts, short time arrangements or redundancy. There was a massive expansion of non-managerial jobs during the boom to the extent that hundreds of thousands of immigrants found jobs. Working class people who benefited from the opportunities due to this massive expansion are now suffering from the downturn.

There is no reason to not see low level managers as working class. Personally I see people as working class if they have to work to live, and can be laid off by resessions etc.

That makes most of the private sector working class. ( Karl Marx would have agreed, by the way). Not so much the public sector.

asdasd

in riga they have been having peaceful protests before this, where have been the irish protests? has there been any?

Sure. Rich old codgers took to the street to demand that they not pay for their medical cards, a subsidy only introduced about 3 years before.

Nah, we take Foxrock first

Last time there was a fierce leftwing revolt in Ireland they left FoxRock alone ( in fact: came from FoxRock most probably), politely got onto the DART and LUAS with no damage caused, and rioted in inner city Dublin. Fox rock is safe. Come the revolution., be worried about BurgerKing and McDonalds in the centre. Unless the revolution is nationalist. Then worry about unionists on O'Connell St.

once we have stopped blaming all the asylum seekers and Poles, once they have all left then we can start rioting in the streets as there will be no one else to blame.

If employers keep hiring immigrants during the recession all bets are off on who "we" actually blame. I wold say immigration had some effect on house prices during the boom however, and probably in an upwards fashion, so it is not all tickles and giggles on the immigration front.

SkepticOne

asdasd wrote: »

There is no reason to not see low level managers as working class. Personally I see people as working class if they have to work to live, and can be laid off by resessions etc.

That makes most of the private sector working class. ( Karl Marx would have agreed, by the way). Not so much the public sector.

I would agree with this. I was deliberately going with the traditional workers/management distinction to make the point that even if you take a narrow definition, the working class benefited during the boom and are or will suffer during the downturn. In reality there's a lot more social mobility these days and these distinctions don't really apply.

Leon08

BroomBurner wrote: »

OP, seriously, think for a minute about what you're advocating. Do you really think we need to riot? We're not exactly under a military dictatorship or anything, at least not yet!

Haha! Imagine how ****ed we'd be if Willie O'Dea was the Fuhrer of Ireland!

El Stuntman

Leon08 wrote: »

Haha! Imagine how ****ed we'd be if Willie O'Dea was the Fuhrer of Ireland!

if the furry lip fits...