Is it time to revolt?

ODS

It's one thing for this utterly useless government to be presiding over the economic meltdown - but I really am absolutely infuriated at the thought that post-nationalisation, they are allowing major borrowers at Anglo Irish Bank to be withdraw their deposits!!

As in the Indo -

"Planned legislation to give the State control of the embattled lender was to include a restriction which would prevent customers who owe the bank more than €20m from removing funds to below the level of their debt.

And if they owe more than they have on deposit, all their money in the bank would have been frozen.

But legislation to nationalise the bank – which will be introduced to the Dail tomorrow – will not now include this planned restriction, the Irish Independent has learned."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lenihan-to-back-down-over-anglo-irish-cash-1606258.html

I note that tomorrow the government and TDs are taking a break from their holidays to attend the 90th anniversary of the First Dail. Funny enough, I've never read reports that that 1st Dail was meeting during it's holidays :mad:

We used to hear guff as to whether Ireland was closer in it's economic model to Boston or Berlin - truth is it's Baghdad they've accomplished.... So is it time to skip the politeness and just get to straight to the point?

meglome

I've never seen myself as particularly political but I am now. I didn't vote for our current government as I thought the status quo was a bad idea, given the waste and the spending of money from a boom that couldn't last.

Nationalising a toxic piece of crap like Anglo Irish is seriously questionable and we're likely to be paying for our developers mistakes for decades. But sure we're paying for our developers greed with huge mortgages anyway so what the hell. It seems they are allowed to move their money anywhere they please even though they have huge loans on property that is in free fall in some cases.

I'm so angry at the bunch of ****wits we call a government, I still have some small hope they'll get it right, a very small hope.

nesf

Eh, if you read down further to the next paragraph you'll see that they couldn't have left the restrictions in as is in the legislation.

Officials are still combing through the draft legislation but sources indicated last night that the restrictions are legally flawed and will have to be either amended or scrapped.

Such things happen, etc.

SkepticOne

If there was going to be some sort of disposal of the toxic assets on the market over a period of time then some good might come of this. But, according to Cowen, it is "business as usual" at Anglo after nationalisation. The cynic in me says that Anglo was privatised in order to give Friends of Fianna Fail a chance to bail out with a few million in deposits each and get out of the country with the State taking up the for the now worthless assets.

Two birds with one stone. 1. Help your friends. 2. Cover up the state of the finances from the public.

We will pay for this through higher cost of borrowing to make up the governments budget deficit. It will bring forward the date that the IMF will be called in.

AlekSmart

I`d be at one with SkepticOne on this.

Im equally sceptical at the rather sudden appearance of "Legal Reasons" AFTER the restrictive elements are revealed to a nervous public.

I`m also somewhat worried about the rather sudden predliction of the State and it`s agencies to stifle media coverage of items such as the Ryanair/Aer Lingus bid.

I do NOT consider it acceptable for the Takeover Panel to make an "In Camera" submission to take the challenge out of the public gaze....What else is being hidden by these people ???

ejmaztec

Next time they go canvassing, I think that they'll be mostly wearing Kevlar.

Liam Byrne

To answer the OP's question - the time to revolt was during the last General Election, but enough idiots believed the "trust us with the economy" bull**** that FF spouted.

But we need to do something; surely not even the blinkered FF sheep voted for bailing out Anglo Irish without any caveats or restrictions on the directors who ran it like a personal piggy-bank! :mad:

nesf

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`d be at one with SkepticOne on this.

Im equally sceptical at the rather sudden appearance of "Legal Reasons" AFTER the restrictive elements are revealed to a nervous public.

Why? This is almost certainly a badly rushed piece of legislation for obvious reasons, it's really not uncommon that something in the legislation needs to be dropped at the last minute because of some unforeseen legal hang up.

I'd seriously question whether the State had a right to freeze someone's assets because they owed a lot of money so long as they hadn't defaulted on the loan yet. It's a fair breech of freedom with no proof of illegal behaviour tbh.

Liam Byrne

nesf wrote: »

Why? This is almost certainly a badly rushed piece of legislation for obvious reasons, it's really not uncommon that something in the legislation needs to be dropped at the last minute because of some unforeseen legal hang up.

As long as it's then not "badly rushed" and the piece that's "dropped" is replaced with something that protects our interests, and not just pushed through regardless with the required bits "missing".

Otherwise, the Govt buy Anglo with our money, and those who ran it into the ground withdraw their cash, still owing it the hundreds of millions that they hid from auditors and officialdom, and never pay that back!!!! That'd really put Bertie's unpaid-back "loans" down to the "petty cash" level that he tried to convince us they were*.

No sirree, we didn't vote for THAT level of stroke-pulling! :mad:

* of course, the completely out-of-touch idiots in Government don't realise that normal people have to live on between 20 & 40K per year; to them those amounts ARE petty cash and unvouched expenses.

SkepticOne

If Anglo went under as it would have without this intervention then everything would have been frozen while they went through all the accounts. If you were a net borrower any deposits would have been taken off the outstanding amount owed and that would be that.

Although it could be argued that this would not be in the national interest, it sure as hell would not be in the interest of those who owed tens of millions yet may have a couple of million on deposit. I suspect this was why they said they would freeze these deposits - put peoples minds at rest that people who owed weren't going to make off with money.

It is the "business as usual" comment by Cowen and the way they said such legislation freezing assets was "not necessary" when now we realise they meant "not possible" that make the whole thing dodgy.

Cantab.

It's time to set fire to Leinster House.

nesf

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As long as it's then not "badly rushed" and the piece that's "dropped" is replaced with something that protects our interests, and not just pushed through regardless with the required bits "missing"

I'm not at all convinced that the restrictions are necessary to protect our interest. If anything they look like an ugly piece of populist spin.

nesf

SkepticOne wrote: »

If Anglo went under as it would have without this intervention then everything would have been frozen while they went through all the accounts. If you were a net borrower any deposits would have been taken off the outstanding amount owed and that would be that.

Although it could be argued that this would not be in the national interest, it sure as hell would not be in the interest of those who owed tens of millions yet may have a couple of million on deposit. I suspect this was why they said they would freeze these deposits - put peoples minds at rest that people who owed weren't going to make off with money.

Essentially this is my biggest problem with the whole "Anglo was nationalised to help out the builders" argument. There would be a fairly substantial social cost to society in leaving the third largest deposit bank fail on top of a hefty economic cost. It's far more likely that if you're looking for ignoble reasons for this that FF did this so they won't lose the vote of each every Anglo customer who couldn't access their savings/current accounts if Anglo went down rather than propping up a few friend's accounts.

SkepticOne

nesf wrote: »

It's far more likely that if you're looking for ignoble reasons for this that FF did this so they won't lose the vote of each every Anglo customer who couldn't access their savings/current accounts if Anglo went down rather than propping up a few friend's accounts.

I would like to think you are right.

Tricity Bendix

Should we revolt? No. Think things are bad now? Imagine if we had some Joe Duffy-type in charge.

ODS

nesf wrote: »

Eh, if you read down further to the next paragraph you'll see that they couldn't have left the restrictions in as is in the legislation. "Officials are still combing through the draft legislation but sources indicated last night that the restrictions are legally flawed and will have to be either amended or scrapped"
Such things happen, etc.

I fundamentally disagree - whatever route the government take, they know they'll be open for legal action - hence had they the motivation they would push ahead with insisting that borrower's deposits be left as security. This is what banks do when issuing loans, so why should the government behave any differently?

nesf wrote: »

It's far more likely that if you're looking for ignoble reasons for this that FF did this so they won't lose the vote of each every Anglo customer who couldn't access their savings/current accounts if Anglo went down rather than propping up a few friend's accounts.

Instead of which, they haven't just alienated Anglo share-owning voters whose stock is already a write-off if international experience occurs - but by the rotten manner they are handling Anglo, this is ensuring that the markets have no confidence in the rest of the banks.

The government must be cognisant of this - they are culpable as authors, and share holders in the other banks and the voting public will realise this. It becomes increasingly hard to believe that FF are prioritizing the country's good, rather than their need to keep hush-hush various dodgy deals and skeletons that may have accumulated over the last no. of years.

We have all heard various rumours over various bankers over the last no of years; when I heard about Fitzpatrick and his exposure, I actually thought 'great' - not about Fitzpatrick who hitherto was well-respected, but about others. The rot would no come out quickly - and as with any malaise, the sooner it could be flushed out, the better.... Instead of which the government buys out Anglo in a way that international practice indicates that the small shareholders will get €0; the shareholders are denied transparency; BUT absolutely worst of all is the emergence of the detail that gave rise to this thread. It is utterly intolerable :mad:

I could take the tax hikes, the cuts, and even grudgingly grin and bare - despite my bitter realisation that I had (regrettably) been proven right in my long-held belief that the country was being run in a rotten manner, whereby desperately bad development would ruin not just the environment but the country as well. I could somehow still not lose my cool - and I had even already written off bank stocks I had some months ago, that they might go from 5% to 0: but I am absolutely furious with the way that the government have exacerbated the fall by their gombeen dodgy dealing. As for their lackeys, the former greens, God help me I hope my local minister never ever seeks my vote again - the sooner they are reduced and recycled, the better; flaming disgraceful.

FF know they're going to hell: Problem is, they're determined to take the rest of the country with them. :mad:

nesf

ODS wrote: »

Instead of which, they haven't just alienated Anglo share-owning voters whose stock is already a write-off if international experience occurs - but by the rotten manner they are handling Anglo, this is ensuring that the markets have no confidence in the rest of the banks.

I don't disagree that they haven't learned from Brown's handling of Northern Rock and that their abandonment of the refinancing plan screwed over the other banks royally. That said, I have a small degree of sympathy since this is very unfamiliar waters for any politician from the West. They are screwing up but I'm not convinced that it's possible not to screw up at the moment.


I don't agree with the rest of your post but I doubt we'll reach common ground over it and don't really see the point in debating it with you.

youcrazyjesus!

FF have done nothing to warrant the success they've enjoyed. Most of their mindless followers who vote for them because Granny and Grandad started voting for them in the inter-war years can't see that and sure isn't Bertie a great bloke he likes his pints! Servile nonsense. They support FF like they support Manchester United. FF rode for a long time initially on a wave of EU money and then unsustainable property taxes and a property boom which favoured primarily the moneyed classes, property developer, builderss and bankers. They got away with it principally because a rising tide carries all boats.

We are in a big hole though and it seems that the opportunity to save for this rainy day was lost during the boom years and is actually one of the main causes of the mess we're in now; the failure of FF-led Government to tax properly and fairly those who were making out like bandits during the "Celtic Tiger" years. FF was looking out for FF and it's traditional support, it's business associates involved in property and banking and benefactors and not looking out for the taxpayer and the citizen. It's mainly our fault though, we bought into this fantasy monopoly money system and wanted more of it so we voted them back in twice. The banks were in on it too, did none of these people see what was ahead? How many of our senior bankers in this country have sizeable property interests? How were they motivated with bonus structures? Did they look out for the best interests of their shareholders?

They've earned their millions, they won't go short during the recession. The younger generation have to now carry the can for this. FF facilitated the bank-propertydeveloper-speculator nexus running the country into the ground while individual bankers and developers and speculators took home billions.

A big problem now is that FF has no moral authority to tell anybody anything in relation to the economy, pay-cuts or spending-cuts. Who in their right mind would listen to them? We need a new government and a period of genuine reform and new strategy for the new era in world finance. With Britain's pound so devalued we need to expand our trade elsewhere.

As much as I disliked FF before this year, with half my friends in Australia or going there soon and some other friends at their wits end with their mortgages and losing jobs the gravity of what they have done to this country really hits home. Many people are starting in the abyss of crippling mortgages and a gigantic negative equity. You have to pay to scratch your arse in this country now too. Everything has a charge, a fee, administration charge, a service fee, service charge. AIB charge about 3 euro a page or something for your bank statement going back (tip: get it under the Freedom of Information for 6 euro). They're charging twice and three times for things now at local and government level because they're so careless and wasteful. The attitude stinks. Look at FÁS: it's only taxpayers money so we'll stuff a 30k meal into our fat faces, it's only a tiny piece of the billion euro of taxpayers money entrusted to us every year; this was the actual argument put forth by that fool Molloy in relation to a certain item of expenditure, he called the amount of taxpayers' money being spent on ppv movies in a hotel on a junket "chickenfeed".

FF were looking after their construction friends and fellow travellers in the business environment and basically turned Ireland into a giant pyramid scheme. That's what it was. We're the fools for not caring enough to look into these things and recognise what was happening. As long as we could get our share of the pie we didn't care. Anybody criticising the country were naysayers, begrudgers. The leader of the country told them to commit suicide. The whole thing makes me sick. They created a horrible rat-race society that stands for nothing. And we had cheerleaders like this ******* ***** ***** in the media:

The smart, ballsy guys are buying up property right now

I don't like FG either but they haven't been corrupted by a power for
power's sake lust and along with Labour should be a given a mandate at the next election for massive reform. It's a pity we don't have recall elections in this country or I'd be out organising one right now.

Sorry for the long long rant, just annoyed at the fates of some of my friends. We've gone back 25 years in about 9 months.

Short answer: yes.

Revolt: everybody vote for a genuine alternative in the next election.

youcrazyjesus!

b.ie curious wrote: »

Should we revolt? No. Think things are bad now? Imagine if we had some Joe Duffy-type in charge.

Vote Joe no 1. He'd win a seat no problem if he picked his constituency.

DublinWriter

As that guy said on Q&A last night, Anglo-Irish is not a clearing bank and two-thirds of it's assets are based offshore.

WTF are FF doing?!?

deadhead13

Problem is, not long after the revolution it would being to dawn on us that this new shower is just as bad if not worse than the old one.

We get the politicians we deserve. Their just a reflection of the rest of us.

dh2007

DublinWriter wrote: »

As that guy said on Q&A last night, Anglo-Irish is not a clearing bank and two-thirds of it's assets are based offshore.

WTF are FF doing?!?

please excuse my ignorance on this, but why is it of significance that Anglo Irish have two-thirds of their assets offshore? I heard this myself on Q&A and didn't understand the importance of it - thanks in advance!

jmayo

nesf wrote: »

Essentially this is my biggest problem with the whole "Anglo was nationalised to help out the builders" argument. There would be a fairly substantial social cost to society in leaving the third largest deposit bank fail on top of a hefty economic cost. It's far more likely that if you're looking for ignoble reasons for this that FF did this so they won't lose the vote of each every Anglo customer who couldn't access their savings/current accounts if Anglo went down rather than propping up a few friend's accounts.

DublinWriter wrote: »

As that guy said on Q&A last night, Anglo-Irish is not a clearing bank and two-thirds of it's assets are based offshore.

WTF are FF doing?!?

Who exactly are the customers of Anglo ?
I never saw many of their branches around the country, I was never involved in a business that used them for their business banking ?
If you think of normal high street banks/finanical institutions, you think of AIB, BOI, PTSB, EBS, NIB, Ulster and Halifax.
What I am trying to get at is how biog a hit would normal busienss and consumers have taken if this crowd of chancers, yes chancers, had been allowed go bust.
At the same time the governmnet could have invested in the others in order to save the ones that really matter.

I don't know anybody that uses them for personal banking.
They maybe the third biggest bank in ireland but what percentage of their business is property related, either in this country or the UK ?

deadhead13 wrote: »

Problem is, not long after the revolution it would being to dawn on us that this new shower is just as bad if not worse than the old one.

We get the politicians we deserve. Their just a reflection of the rest of us.

Ah yes, so we should just continue backing the property party and not bother looking for a change, because as they tell us the others would be just as bad. :rolleyes:
Blinkered thinking that will keep us forever in sh**.

Liam Byrne

The plot thickens.....Manseragh's bull**** that the 20 million restriction was removed on advice from the AG has been contradicted by both the AG and Cowen....

So if it wasn't for "legal reasons", why was it ? And why did Manseragh say it was ?

nesf

jmayo wrote: »

I don't know anybody that uses them for personal banking.
They maybe the third biggest bank in ireland but what percentage of their business is property related, either in this country or the UK ?

Good question, I'd be interested in knowing the answer.


Edit: After watching Q&A, definitely some very good questions raised in it that need answering regarding Anglo.

stepster

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

FF have done nothing to warrant the success they've enjoyed. Most of their mindless followers who vote for them because Granny and Grandad started voting for them in the inter-war years can't see that and sure isn't Bertie a great bloke he likes his pints! Servile nonsense. They support FF like they support Manchester United. FF rode for a long time initially on a wave of EU money and then unsustainable property taxes and a property boom which favoured primarily the moneyed classes, property developer, builderss and bankers. They got away with it principally because a rising tide carries all boats.

We are in a big hole though and it seems that the opportunity to save for this rainy day was lost during the boom years and is actually one of the main causes of the mess we're in now; the failure of FF-led Government to tax properly and fairly those who were making out like bandits during the "Celtic Tiger" years. FF was looking out for FF and it's traditional support, it's business associates involved in property and banking and benefactors and not looking out for the taxpayer and the citizen. It's mainly our fault though, we bought into this fantasy monopoly money system and wanted more of it so we voted them back in twice. The banks were in on it too, did none of these people see what was ahead? How many of our senior bankers in this country have sizeable property interests? How were they motivated with bonus structures? Did they look out for the best interests of their shareholders?

They've earned their millions, they won't go short during the recession. The younger generation have to now carry the can for this. FF facilitated the bank-propertydeveloper-speculator nexus running the country into the ground while individual bankers and developers and speculators took home billions.

A big problem now is that FF has no moral authority to tell anybody anything in relation to the economy, pay-cuts or spending-cuts. Who in their right mind would listen to them? We need a new government and a period of genuine reform and new strategy for the new era in world finance. With Britain's pound so devalued we need to expand our trade elsewhere.

As much as I disliked FF before this year, with half my friends in Australia or going there soon and some other friends at their wits end with their mortgages and losing jobs the gravity of what they have done to this country really hits home. Many people are starting in the abyss of crippling mortgages and a gigantic negative equity. You have to pay to scratch your arse in this country now too. Everything has a charge, a fee, administration charge, a service fee, service charge. AIB charge about 3 euro a page or something for your bank statement going back (tip: get it under the Freedom of Information for 6 euro). They're charging twice and three times for things now at local and government level because they're so careless and wasteful. The attitude stinks. Look at FÁS: it's only taxpayers money so we'll stuff a 30k meal into our fat faces, it's only a tiny piece of the billion euro of taxpayers money entrusted to us every year; this was the actual argument put forth by that fool Molloy in relation to a certain item of expenditure, he called the amount of taxpayers' money being spent on ppv movies in a hotel on a junket "chickenfeed".

FF were looking after their construction friends and fellow travellers in the business environment and basically turned Ireland into a giant pyramid scheme. That's what it was. We're the fools for not caring enough to look into these things and recognise what was happening. As long as we could get our share of the pie we didn't care. Anybody criticising the country were naysayers, begrudgers. The leader of the country told them to commit suicide. The whole thing makes me sick. They created a horrible rat-race society that stands for nothing. And we had cheerleaders like this ******* ***** ***** in the media:

The smart, ballsy guys are buying up property right now

I don't like FG either but they haven't been corrupted by a power for
power's sake lust and along with Labour should be a given a mandate at the next election for massive reform. It's a pity we don't have recall elections in this country or I'd be out organising one right now.

Sorry for the long long rant, just annoyed at the fates of some of my friends. We've gone back 25 years in about 9 months.

Short answer: yes.

Revolt: everybody vote for a genuine alternative in the next election.

Excellent post that - you just put it in a nutshell for me everything wrong with this country.

stakey

dh2007 wrote: »

please excuse my ignorance on this, but why is it of significance that Anglo Irish have two-thirds of their assets offshore? I heard this myself on Q&A and didn't understand the importance of it - thanks in advance!

The main issue is that FF claim Anglo Irish to be an important bank that needs to be bailed out due to it's systemic role in Irish society.

That's complete BS of course. Anglo Irish isn't a high street bank, it didn't loan to SME's, businesses or home owners. It was a bank run by property developers and speculators who essentially gambled on the housing boom. It's not systemic because businesses up and down the country don't rely on it to pay wages or do day to day banking.

Anglo Irish was/is essentially a play club for speculators where over half of the assets of the bank don't even have anything to do with the Irish economy.

The sytemic and important banks in Ireland are BOI and AIB, companies around the country and individuals rely on these banks for their day to day banking.

Anglo Irish is relied upon by the good friends of the Fianna Fail party; the builders and developers. They're getting a bail out from Fianna Fail using your hard earned cash.