we need a new party in Irish politics

El Stuntman

Fianna Fail have proven themselves both incompetent (in the extreme!) and corrupt. Sorry to be so blunt for any FF'ers on here but it's obvious that they are not worthy of holding any office and we were idiots to be conned by Bertie (Incompetence and Corruption personnified) in 2002 and 2007.

I almost joined Fine Gael at the start of this year and indeed made the first steps, however their public pronouncements over the last fortnight have convinced me that they have nearly as little idea of how to formulate a coherent policy response than FF. They do seem more honest than FF which is something I suppose.

Labour are a tool of the unions who sadly are now a regressive force in Irish society (look at the ESB pushing through pay rises under threat of strike action this week). This is not what Connolly or Larkin envisioned.

The PDs are defunct.

Sinn Fein are beyond the pale.

Independents are a waste of a vote.

What I see an overwhelming need for is a new centrist party that stands on a platform of two simple core ideals:

1. Honesty. We need a government that is not beholden to narrow sectoral interests; be they developers\ banks\unions etc and we need a government that will operate at all times in the broadest national interest. We also need a government that will explain its actions, in plain language (not the nonsensical jargon that Cowen and Lenihan have been spouting) at all times. This party's funding needs to be 100% above board with full and complete public disclosure.

2. Competence. We need a government that is comprised of people who have significant real-world experience in all arenas; doctors, accountants, managers, transport experts, bankers, engineers. The last thing we need is more career politicans who inherited their daddy's seat and have no idea of the real world outside of Leinster House, their constituency office, their party and their financial backers.

is anyone with me on this or am I just talking through my arse?

KevIRL

Gets my vote anyway

mike65

El Stuntman wrote: »

talking through my arse

Sadly! You are presuming a party could come into existence and remain clean and honest, it never happens - to many variables, too many compromsies required, too many interest groups to please/pay-off.

ART6

Given Ireland's present situation and it's rapid rate of decline, we are facing nothing short of disaster if someone doesn't come up with some ideas pretty damned quick. I agree with OP that FF are not going to do that, and I don't believe that FG or Labour can either. But there are some politicians scattered about through all the parties that do seem to have some competence, although not enough of them in any individual party to be able to take over government competently. So maybe the solution is for a national all party government to be formed like it was in the UK during the last world war, and to bring into cabinet the best from each party. That means the end to petty political points scoring for the time being and heads down lads to fix the problem:mad:

Fratton Fred

a decent party would require decent politicians, if you can find them then we are half way there.

Don't hold your breath though....

dK1NG

Where do I sign up?!

El Stuntman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

a decent party would require decent politicians, if you can find them then we are half way there.

Don't hold your breath though....

that's my point though; these people would not be politicians now but rather people who have worked in a variety of industries and areas with proven expertise, management ability and yes, dare I say it, intelligence (a quality sadly lacking around Kildare St - I still lol when I remember all the FF'ers who eulogised Cowen and Lenihan for their 'intelligence').

there are plenty of talented and patriotic people out there; attracting and motivating them would be the first step

BigCityBanker

Herr Stuntman, what a fantastic idea.

Is there room in your cabinet for one so skilled in the art of dimplomacy as my good self?

El Stuntman

BigCityBanker wrote: »

Herr Stuntman, what a fantastic idea.

Is there room in your cabinet for one so skilled in the art of dimplomacy as my good self?

I think you would make a good Minister for War

Fratton Fred

El Stuntman wrote: »

that's my point though; these people would not be politicians now but rather people who have worked in a variety of industries and areas with proven expertise, management ability and yes, dare I say it, intelligence (a quality sadly lacking around Kildare St - I still lol when I remember all the FF'ers who eulogised Cowen and Lenihan for their 'intelligence').

there are plenty of talented and patriotic people out there; attracting and motivating them would be the first step

an excellent idea. How do you propose getting to people to vote for your party, presuming none of the members are related to De Velera?

I know we all moan about the amount of money TDs earn, but you are talking about business leaders on a lot more than €100k. getting them to give up jobs in the hope of securing a seat would be a big ask at the moment.

Kev_ps3

mike65 wrote: »

Sadly! You are presuming a party could come into existence and remain clean and honest, it never happens - to many variables, too many compromsies required, too many interest groups to please/pay-off.

Yeah, we should be content with what we have, no matter how rubbish they are. Whats the point in even trying:rolleyes:

Killme00

BigCityBanker wrote: »

Herr Stuntman, what a fantastic idea.

Is there room in your cabinet for one so skilled in the art of dimplomacy as my good self?

El Stuntman wrote: »

I think you would make a good Minister for War

I think he would make a good propaganda minister

El Stuntman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

an excellent idea. How do you propose getting to people to vote for your party, presuming none of the members are related to De Velera?

by running on core values of honesty and competence - you don't think people will be attracted to a party that can offer this?

lol, I think not being related to Dev will be a bigger selling point by the time we are finished with FF!

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know we all moan about the amount of money TDs earn, but you are talking about business leaders on a lot more than €100k. getting them to give up jobs in the hope of securing a seat would be a big ask at the moment.

lots of very talented and highly-paid people are losing their jobs at present with no hope of re-employment; there's a potential pool of candidates right there.

first you need to create momentum

Irlbo

We dont need any more political parties,we have enough,and bringing in another one,will not make them less sh*t,dont forget the ones in government are just well known for being in government,there are dozens of political parties out there that started with good intensions and faded into the political limbo,Workers Party,Communist party,Irish peoples party,Progressive democrats,Irish republican socialist party,Christian Solidarity party,and scores f independants,all with diverse ideals and good intentions,were are they now?????????another party in an already crammed 'market' so to speak is cleary not a solution at present

Killme00

El S,

How would you propose keeping them honest for the long run? Full disclosure doesnt work in its presnt format and neither do the regulatory bodies. How about indepent oversight?

How about communism becuase this democratic business clearly isnt working when the power base is corrupt, although the same could be said for all forms of government?

El Stuntman

Irlbo wrote: »

We dont need any more political parties,we have enough,and bringing in another one,will not make them less sh*t,dont forget the ones in government are just well known for being in government,there are dozens of political parties out there that started with good intensions and faded into the political limbo,Workers Party,Communist party,Irish peoples party,Progressive democrats,Irish republican socialist party,Christian Solidarity party,and scores f independants,all with diverse ideals and good intentions,were are they now?????????another party in an already crammed 'market' so to speak is cleary not a solution at present

spurious

the whig party no longer exists in Britain either but they had a good go over a couple of centuries; does that mean they should never have started?

if you take the PDs as your example, I think most people would admit they got a lot done over the course of their existence

OhNoYouDidn't

Killme00 wrote: »

I think he would make a good propaganda minister

Bagsy Minster of Sexy!

Love this idea man.

If you ever have need for someone to jump aboard with you I have some serious ideas about how to sort out the public service and massive and rapidly needed legal reforms.

As for viability; there is no time when people are more receptive to change than when things are looking bleak. What would you call your party Stunty?

strewelpeter

I'll vote for you , no problem...

In return for my vote I want:
The potholes on my road filled in.
A reversal of the fees for third level education.
Build the incinerator in Dublin and close the landfill up the road from me.
A unilateral condemnation of the recent Israeli genocide of the Palestinian people.
etc. ad nauseam

Killme00

And the introduction of Nuclear power

El Stuntman

strewelpeter wrote: »

I'll vote for you , no problem...

In return for my vote I want:
The potholes on my road filled in.
A reversal of the fees for third level education.
Build the incinerator in Dublin and close the landfill up the road from me.
A unilateral condemnation of the recent Israeli genocide of the Palestinian people.
etc. ad nauseam

what if I said 'no' to 1 and 4 and yes to 2 and 3?

(and really, foreign policy, outside of the EU anyway, is the least of our worries right now)

strewelpeter

El Stuntman wrote: »

what if I said 'no' to 1 and 4 and yes to 2 and 3?

(and really, foreign policy, outside of the EU anyway, is the least of our worries right now)

I was just being facetious.
Seriously though, yes the time is right but unless you were able to get serious numbers of defections then I think it would be easier to take over one of the two possible alternative parties FG or LAB from inside.
You are going to need political types to get anywhere and that is where they are.

El Stuntman

Killme00 wrote: »

El S,

How would you propose keeping them honest for the long run? Full disclosure doesnt work in its presnt format and neither do the regulatory bodies. How about indepent oversight?

did you not see the bit about finding best practice worldwide and copying it?

carlop

Irlbo wrote: »

We dont need any more political parties,we have enough,and bringing in another one,will not make them less sh*t,dont forget the ones in government are just well known for being in government,there are dozens of political parties out there that started with good intensions and faded into the political limbo,Workers Party,Communist party,Irish peoples party,Progressive democrats,Irish republican socialist party,Christian Solidarity party,and scores f independants,all with diverse ideals and good intentions,were are they now?????????another party in an already crammed 'market' so to speak is cleary not a solution at present

Most of the parties you mentioned were designed to appeal only to a particular niche in society, and I'd say the majority of Irish people run a mile when they see the word 'communist' or 'socialist,' as much as a result of ignorance as of anything else.

What I think El S is talking about is a new party that offers a broad appeal in a time of crisis, and that will not compromise itself like the PDs did by entering into coalition with Fianna Fail.

It's an idea I'd support, but unfortunately the majority of people in this country don't possess the mental capacity to look beyond the letters FF and FG in the ballot box, and will vote despite not knowing anything about a political party's manifesto. This is the problem with democracy, the ignorant carry far more weight than the informed, which is why people like Jackie Healy-Rae can continually retain their seat.

FTA69

El Stuntman wrote: »

by running on core values of honesty and competence - you don't think people will be attracted to a party that can offer this?

No, because honesty and competence isn't a core political value at all; every party professes to be honest and competent, what would make you different? Unless you have a coherent set of policies, some sort of an ideology and a strong local profile (all politics in Ireland is local) of activism then you have nothing. Simply pointing out how FF are a pack of gangsters isn't going to do you any favours either, negative politics never, ever gets you votes unless you can provide a clear alternative.

Every major party in Ireland is already gravitated around the centre, the only two parties that were really different were Sinn Féin and the PDs. The PDs are gone and SF is largely indistinguishable from the likes of Labour etc. The centre/populist ground is well and truly sewn up and any party with vague notions of "back to basics", "honesty and competence" etc isn't exactly injecting anything new into the political landscape.

Even the terms "honesty and competence" are Fine Gael's chosen words when they start banging on about how they should be in power instead of Tweedledee.

carlop

El Stuntman wrote: »

did you not see the bit about finding best practice worldwide and copying it?

I presume this would be one of the Scandinavian models. I know very little about economics but would I be right in saying that the high levels of public expenditure in these countries should make them more recession-proof than others?

The problem with emulating the Scandinavian system is that it means raising taxes, and if anything can be taken from the last 15 years, it is that we are greedy as a race. Even though a lot of evidence proves it to be the most efficient and competitive economic model, it would be a very hard sell. I think the Scandinavian system can only work in the Scandinavian countries, as only Scandinavians will accept such a system.

carlop

carlop wrote: »

It's an idea I'd support, but unfortunately the majority of people in this country don't possess the mental capacity to look beyond the letters FF and FG in the ballot box, and will vote despite not knowing anything about a political party's manifesto. This is the problem with democracy, the ignorant carry far more weight than the informed, which is why people like Jackie Healy-Rae can continually retain their seat.

It's statements like this that put you in the category of the ignorant I am afraid. You clearly do not understand Irish politics.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

carlop

Deleted User wrote: »

It's statements like this that put you in the category of the ignorant I am afraid. You clearly do not understand Irish politics.

Would you care to enlighten me so?

Perhaps I should have qualified my statement a little more. The majority of people in Ireland vote largely on local issues, or as a result of a family allegiance that goes back generations. I don't know if any research has been carried out that could back this up, so this is just my perception. However, if the above is true as I believe it to be, it would mean that the central policies of a political party are not the primary influence when the majority of people cast their vote.

Het-Field

The Reality is that Libertas and the Progressive Democrats have articulated the only two ways in which a new party can be started, and be effective. The former is bankrolled by huge amounts of money, and has been able to use this to cultivate an image of "eurocriticis". However, they have a long way to go before we can consider Libertas a credible and established organisation.

On the other hand the PDs were built on established personel. O Malley, Harney, Molloy, Keating, McDowell, Dardis, Cox, Wyse, O Donnell, O Byrnes, Parlon, Sexton, and unsuccessfully Colm O Gorman, all spring to mind. This ran out when the personality was no longer of interest to the Irish people, in spite of the undoubted success of the PDs.

As a result, one must question the longevity, or potential success of any new organisation.

I have heard of a vareity of parties including the so called "Priorities Party", and that cabal of old people who will stand at the local elections in protest over the way they were treated last Autumn. However, neither of these groups along with the SWP/PBP, The Christian Solidarity Party, Fathers Rights, The Workers Party and the Immigration Control Platform will have too many major successes at the upcoming European And Local Election. This is due to the fact that they have neither attribute whioch was crucial to the genesis of the PDs or Libertas.

People can talk policy all they like, however, there will always be a huge core vote for Fianna Fail, and another for Fine Gael. Labour will have one, but to a lesser extent. In 2007 it was en vogue to vote Green..this has changed as most Irish people realise that a terrible mistake has been made. Whatever can be said about the PDs providing excellent bedfellows for FF, the Greens have repudiated their principles immediatly. This has effectively led to a single party government which is out of control, and has no direction.

We need a new party, but a grass roots organisation is virtually impossible to build.

carlop

carlop wrote: »

Would you care to enlighten me so?

Perhaps I should have qualified my statement a little more. The majority of people in Ireland vote largely on local issues, or as a result of a family allegiance that goes back generations.

There ya go. Welcome back to the enlightened. "What have you done for me lately?" is the mantra of the Irish voter. Failing that they vote for who they know, and I mean that literally rather than "face" politicians. When Nora Owen lost her seat a few years ago it was arguably due to a divisive local campaign rather than any FG policy disputes. Similarly in my constituency John O'Leary, the last Dublin Captain to win an All-Ireland, stood for FF in the last election and lost by a mile. The man is a complete hero up here but sure enough the "what's he ever done for me?" factor was too great. Doesn't matter who you are or who you stand for; it matters what you, or your family (there is almost 0 distinction in the Irish mindset) have done for the local area.

This is why there are so many teachers in the Dail imo.