we need a new party in Irish politics

Killme00

carlop wrote: »

I presume this would be one of the Scandinavian models. I know very little about economics but would I be right in saying that the high levels of public expenditure in these countries should make them more recession-proof than others?

The problem with emulating the Scandinavian system is that it means raising taxes, and if anything can be taken from the last 15 years, it is that we are greedy as a race. Even though a lot of evidence proves it to be the most efficient and competitive economic model, it would be a very hard sell. I think the Scandinavian system can only work in the Scandinavian countries, as only Scandinavians will accept such a system.

Norway has a great system of investing third generation money into public services and infastrcuture. The problem is that Ireland doesnt have any natural resources like Norway ie Oil

The_Minister

El Stuntman wrote: »

I almost joined Fine Gael at the start of this year and indeed made the first steps, however their public pronouncements over the last fortnight have convinced me that they have nearly as little idea of how to formulate a coherent policy response than FF.

SNAP!!

I was just about to join Fine Gael when they came out with the populist, cowardly call for public sector wage cuts to only affect those earning over €100,000

carlop

Deleted User wrote: »

There ya go. Welcome back to the enlightened. "What have you done for me lately?" is the mantra of the Irish voter. Failing that they vote for who they know, and I mean that literally rather than "face" politicians. When Nora Owen lost her seat a few years ago it was arguably due to a divisive local campaign rather than any FG policy disputes. Similarly in my constituency John O'Leary, the last Dublin Captain to win an All-Ireland, stood for FF in the last election and lost by a mile. The man is a complete hero up here but sure enough the "what's he ever done for me?" factor was too great. Doesn't matter who you are or who you stand for; it matters what you, or your family (there is almost 0 distinction in the Irish mindset) have done for the local area.

This is why there are so many teachers in the Dail imo.

It feels good to be back, for a second there I thought the Poles were to blame for it all. This makes sense. When I said people don't look beyond FF and FG, maybe this is more to do with the fact that they best understand and exploit the "What have you done for me lately" mentality, however I still feel there is a significant number who will vote for FF or FG because they and their family always have, and who would not consider a third party option. Either way, national manifesto is largely ignored.

Would you agree that the 'What have you done for me lately' manifesto is detrimental to the functioning of central government? I think that if we accept it as the principal motivator in voting patterns, there needs to be a change in the Irish electoral system. Local concerns shouldn't be ignored by any means, but there are local councils to deal with them. A general election determines the next government of our State, and an issue such as 'the potholes on the main street in Ballinasloe' should not really be a general election outcome as it does not fall within the remit of central government.

El Stuntman

FTA69 wrote: »

No, because honesty and competence isn't a core political value at all; every party professes to be honest and competent, what would make you different?

demonstrating it

El Stuntman

carlop wrote: »

I presume this would be one of the Scandinavian models. I know very little about economics but would I be right in saying that the high levels of public expenditure in these countries should make them more recession-proof than others?

The problem with emulating the Scandinavian system is that it means raising taxes, and if anything can be taken from the last 15 years, it is that we are greedy as a race. Even though a lot of evidence proves it to be the most efficient and competitive economic model, it would be a very hard sell. I think the Scandinavian system can only work in the Scandinavian countries, as only Scandinavians will accept such a system.

you must have misconstrued my post; I was talking about copying their system with regards to political financing (if their system is in fact world-class) and the transparency thereof, not copying their economic models

El Stuntman

Het-Field wrote: »

People can talk policy all they like, however, there will always be a huge core vote for Fianna Fail, and another for Fine Gael. Labour will have one, but to a lesser extent. In 2007 it was en vogue to vote Green..this has changed as most Irish people realise that a terrible mistake has been made. Whatever can be said about the PDs providing excellent bedfellows for FF, the Greens have repudiated their principles immediatly. This has effectively led to a single party government which is out of control, and has no direction.

We need a new party, but a grass roots organisation is virtually impossible to build.

I know what you're saying but if everyone thought like that, then there would never be any change. I see a few other variants on the same theme.

any new party would need to constantly be on-message about how the old parties have failed and do not deserve the support of the electorate.

put it this way; there's a certain indvidual who's about to be sworn in to a rather important post today. I'm sure he was told lots of times that he was crazy even to think about running, that there was no way Americans would ever vote a black man into the White House.

optimism ftw!

Het-Field

El Stuntman wrote: »

I know what you're saying but if everyone thought like that, then there would never be any change. I see a few other variants on the same theme.

any new party would need to constantly be on-message about how the old parties have failed and do not deserve the support of the electorate.

put it this way; there's a certain indvidual who's about to be sworn in to a rather important post today. I'm sure he was told lots of times that he was crazy even to think about running, that there was no way Americans would ever vote a black man into the White House.

optimism ftw!

Problem is the Irish system has frozen a bit. The Evangelical Right of the Republican Party has made America the most upopular nation of the world. Obama has captured a mood optimism. I still maintain the John McCain is one of the best candidates ever put forward by the Reoublicans, and the world would have been better off it the Republicans had selected him in 2000.

IN Ireland we have no stand out politician like McCain, Obama, Clinton or Paul. The two party system is prevalent in America, however, in Ireland its worst. 80 years of history cant be wrong. I would like to talk optimistically about a new party in Ireland, however, as somebody who have been very heavily involved in politics of some kind for the past four years, I realise that it is not as simple as idealism, and the reality of the situation must be accounted for

Sirtoyou

Fratton Fred wrote: »

an excellent idea. How do you propose getting to people to vote for your party, presuming none of the members are related to De Velera?

I know we all moan about the amount of money TDs earn, but you are talking about business leaders on a lot more than €100k. getting them to give up jobs in the hope of securing a seat would be a big ask at the moment.

Conscription in a time of crisis?Start treating this as a war against bankruptcy.

TommyGunne

All very well and good to propose a new party which would be honest and competent, but who would you get to run as a member of it? Anyone who is actually intelligent would never try and be a politician, so that immediately rules out competency. I would imagine that honesty would actually be a much easier attribute to find in potential candidates than competency, contrary to popular opinions of politicians.

grahamo

Think we need a politician who will lead. As said above there are no stand out politicians in Ireland at the minute. Brian Cowen doesn't exactly have the "Up & at 'em" look about him (although to be fair he gave a good speech today but he just has no passion in his voice) and as for Enda Kenny...How can we be expected to take seriously a man that lived with his mammy till he was 40

Irlbo

grahamo wrote: »

Think we need a politician who will lead. As said above there are no stand out politicians in Ireland at the minute. Brian Cowen doesn't exactly have the "Up & at 'em" look about him (although to be fair he gave a good speech today but he just has no passion in his voice) and as for Enda Kenny...How can we be expected to take seriously a man that lived with his mammy till he was 40

TED,DID YOU ASK FOR A DRAMATIC DYNAMIC VOICE!!!!!no he asked for a boring,a boring voice

Leon08

@ El Stuntman

Although I agree whole-heartedly with your opening post, I also see the points highlighted in subsequent posts in relation to the difficulties that you would encounter, in particular the relentless mentality when it comes to voting for candidates on the basis of local issues, historical allegiances and family ties.

Let's try and take the discussion to a new level. Let's say that you managed to found a new political party, how would you go about organising it? How would you recruiting the honest, intelligent and motivated individuals that you envision will make up this organisation?

El Stuntman

Leon08 wrote: »

@ El Stuntman

Although I agree whole-heartedly with your opening post, I also see the points highlighted in subsequent posts in relation to the difficulties that you would encounter, in particular the relentless mentality when it comes to voting for candidates on the basis of local issues, historical allegiances and family ties.

morning,

it is somewhat depressing to see the Irish mentality at its negative 'best' in this thread i.e. for every positive thought there are several negative ones saying that you will never overcome the status quo, people will always vote on the basis of family allegiance etc. Basically finding a reason to continue to accept the mediocrity, carp from the sidelines and remain essentially civically uninvolved.

Not much in the way of 'yes we can' thinking here!

Leon08 wrote: »

Let's say that you managed to found a new political party, how would you go about organising it?

I think the Obama campaign showed the way as to the future of political organisation:

- enthuse your hard-core supporters. Any new party would need a hard core of thousands of supporters who are actually prepared to roll their sleeves up, get out and work hard for electoral success. I would focus primarily on people under 30 here. If a new party could recruit 10,000 committed supporters that fit this description nationwide, that would be a great start.

- use the Net to its full potential.

- remain relentlessly on-message. The amount of gaffes that came out of the Obama camp was astonishing - there were hardly any. Remind voters every hour of every day why you are different, why the current parties have failed and what you offer as a fresh vision.

Leon08 wrote: »

How would you recruiting the honest, intelligent and motivated individuals that you envision will make up this organisation?

again, enthusing your base. If you can recruit 10,000 committed supporters there will clearly be some amongst them who would fit the bill as regards being electable. It's all about building momentum; there is a huge groundswell of opinion out there who are totally dissatisifed with the way the country has been run, we need to tap into that potential.

A lot of media people would also be very receptive to a new party; Stephen Collins in the IT, Gene Kerrigan in the Sindo spring to mind as two examples who are clearly disgusted with the current government.

I'd also try to recruit some high-profile people who are not associated with the status quo; people who have shown a capacity to challenge accepted thinking. Morgan Kelly, Alan Ahern and (dare I say it ) David MacWilliams would fit this bill. That surgeon who's often on the radio (some cancer guy, can't remember his name) would also be good. I wouldn't be above stealing talent from other parties as long as they fitted with our core values.

meh, just throwing some ideas out there. What do you think yourself?

Leon08

El Stuntman wrote: »

it is somewhat depressing to see the Irish mentality at its negative 'best' in this thread i.e. for every positive thought there are several negative ones saying that you will never overcome the status quo, people will always vote on the basis of family allegiance etc. Basically finding a reason to continue to accept the mediocrity, carp from the sidelines and remain essentially civically uninvolved.

Not much in the way of 'yes we can' thinking here!

Good morning! I never said it couldn't be done, in fact as you mentioned, the Obama campaign disproved that notion. But there is a saying, I'm sure that you are well aware of it: "Old habits die hard". There's no sense in denying that fact.

I would focus primarily on people under 30

I think you are on the right track here, considering the afore-mentioned point. Young people, especially College students (like myself), are usually enthusiastic about change and new initiatives. Your thoughts on this?

enthuse your hard-core supporters. Any new party would need a hard core of thousands of supporters who are actually prepared to roll their sleeves up, get out and work hard for electoral success.

Very true, its important to walk-the-walk as well as talk-the-talk. One thing, I am of the opinion that voters should be approached on a regular basis and keep track of their opinions, discuss issues with them etc, not just in the run up to an election. Do you agree?

use the Net to its full potential.

Definitely, this was used to great advantage by the Obama campaign. I think this medium is still relatively unused by irish political parties, i havent come across any substantial online FG/FF/Labour political advertising anyway.

And yes, it would definitely be worth getting some popular media figures on our side. Instead of ignoring their questions like most politicians do, try and engage them in discussions on important topics.

Right then, you've convinced me (actually you didnt even need to, Ive been dreaming of this for a long long time!). When do we get started?

El Stuntman

Leon08 wrote: »

I think you are on the right track here, considering the afore-mentioned point. Young people, especially College students (like myself), are usually enthusiastic about change and new initiatives. Your thoughts on this?

plus they are usually willing to work for free :pac: (or even a few beers)

politics itself needs a makeover in this country. Your average punter who sees Cowen waffling or Kenny making no point whatsoever is turned off by politics. Politics needs to be made relevant to everyday lives.

Leon08 wrote: »

Very true, its important to walk-the-walk as well as talk-the-talk. One thing, I am of the opinion that voters should be approached on a regular basis and keep track of their opinions, discuss issues with them etc, not just in the run up to an election. Do you agree?

again, this would tie in with embracing the net and new models of social networking etc (maybe we could take over Boards from the inside )

Leon08 wrote: »

And yes, it would definitely be worth getting some popular media figures on our side. Instead of ignoring their questions like most politicians do, try and engage them in discussions on important topics.

play to their ego you mean? whatever works I suppose!

Leon08 wrote: »

Right then, you've convinced me (actually you didnt even need to, Ive been dreaming of this for a long long time!). When do we get started?

no idea , get enough like-minded people together and get cracking?

Leon08

El Stuntman wrote: »

plus they are usually willing to work for free :pac: (or even a few beers)

politics itself needs a makeover in this country. Your average punter who sees Cowen waffling or Kenny making no point whatsoever is turned off by politics. Politics needs to be made relevant to everyday lives.

Yeah, and the likes of Jackie Haely-Rae and Beverly Flynn dont do much for the image of politics either.

again, this would tie in with embracing the net and new models of social networking etc (maybe we could take over Boards from the inside )

Now thats an idea But seriously, most young people know more about the intricate details of Bebo than they do about current affairs. How many students have you met that can accurately name the members of the Cabinet and their positions?

play to their ego you mean? whatever works I suppose!

You read my mind...

no idea , get enough like-minded people together and get cracking?

Cool, let's get going!

irish_bob

carlop wrote: »

Would you care to enlighten me so?

Perhaps I should have qualified my statement a little more. The majority of people in Ireland vote largely on local issues, or as a result of a family allegiance that goes back generations. I don't know if any research has been carried out that could back this up, so this is just my perception. However, if the above is true as I believe it to be, it would mean that the central policies of a political party are not the primary influence when the majority of people cast their vote.

you have it in one , most irish people dont vote based on issues , its all down to which way the family tree swings

Zuiderzee

Killme00 wrote: »

Norway has a great system of investing third generation money into public services and infastrcuture. The problem is that Ireland doesnt have any natural resources like Norway ie Oil

We have gas, as does Norway. However, they get 40-50% of the gas sales, we wont - FF gave it away.

El Stuntman

Deleted User wrote: »

As for viability; there is no time when people are more receptive to change than when things are looking bleak. What would you call your party Stunty?

no idea: I'm sure we could come up with something snappy that pushes the change message

Raiser

Well I'm shifty, sneaky and have very deep pockets - I'll re-zone, rehouse and evict on demand.... I can lie, cheat, steal and kill..... Drug, mug, batter, embezzle and con..... Its no trouble to me to Rip-off, hoodwink, repossess, dispossess..... I'll kidnap, extort, torture and murder..... I'll intimidate, cohearse and demean and disinherit.....

- I'm an Irish Politician and you'll never change ME!

GuanYin

We have boards.ie generated soccer team, lobby groups and social groups. Why not start a boards.ie political party?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

philologos

The problem is catch-all parties I think, parties who aren't willing to have the courage to get off the line and tell people what they actually think or what they actually believe instead of trying to fish in as many people to vote for them as possible. This much is true for FF, and FG especially. I think Ireland could do with a decent conservative party of some form, to counteract more liberal parties like Labour.

manicmonoliths

I don't think someone like Obama could succeed in Irish politics, even though what we desperately need right now is a leader.

It seems ridiculous to me that our political landscape is dominated by 2 centrist parties with no clear differences separating them. One stays in power until they make enough mistakes that the voters put in the other guys and the system repeats itself. Come election time they offer no new solutions, the opposition highlights how the current government has gone wrong and the government goes on the defensive. As far as I can see none of this matters anyway as voters choose the biggest name on their ballot.

It's time for civil war politics to end. The Irish people must have a say in how their country is run. People need to be presented a choice between clear alternatives and we should have parties geared towards both ends of the political system.

Finding a solution will be tough though, as other posters have said, the Irish voters generally wont elect a fresh face or someone seen to be too different.

A new party will need at least 3 things :

-Strong, likeable personalites who can effectively point out where the previous parties have gone wrong AND offer viable solutions to the current problems.
-Considerable media coverage so that the party will be taken seriously and not seen as extremists or radicals.
-A diverse, networked support base. A party consisting of only ambitious young people fresh out of college will never achieve mass public support. The party would need people of all age groups and backgrounds in key roles in order to get the point accross that it's not only teachers and local heroes who are capable of forming the Dáil.

SirHenryGrattan

Ireland did have a new, young, idealistic party. It was called the Progressive Democrats. Remember "breaking the mould of Irish politics".

Every country has it's share of corrupt politicians. That's not going to change. Your political system is as good as it gets. Change will not achieve anything. Sure people are apathetic, but maybe that's because they are satisfied or should I say mostly satisfied.

NewDubliner

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

Ireland did have a new, young, idealistic party. It was called the Progressive Democrats.

Somebody forgot to shut down their party newspaper - "The Irish Independent".

The_Minister

NewDubliner wrote: »

Somebody forgot to shut down their party newspaper - "The Irish Independent".

The Independant didn't like the PDs.

wylo

FF have failed to deal with the mess that was coming, The only thing FG have going for them is that they are not FF, they have yet to actually prove they are capable of doing a better job at the moment, all theyre good for is attempting to use this crisis for their own benefit. Labour and the Greens have let me down by getting involved with these muppets. They always got my votes, Im especially disappointed with the Greens.

My point?

If I could have a guarantee that this new party would not go into government with ANY other party, it would get my vote so long as it has a set out plan, but its a catch 22, would there be enough people willing to vote to put them into power on their own? Unfortunately not, we dont have our O' bama yet, I dont think were ready for him.

NewDubliner

The_Minister wrote: »

The Independant didn't like the PDs.

They seem to like their policies though.

phantom_lord

based on the people that i've met on my doorstep this thread needs a bump imo