teachers and their wages. bs.

Lil Kitten

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Ads by Google, I'm a teacher and your not. Shame. I'll send you a postcard when I'm off traveling the world and being paid for it. Hahahahah.

and i'll be in my nice office job chatting to people my own age.

cause deep down, i know teaching is a horrible job, dealing with little kids and having to go through the same stuff everyday for the rest of your life. i wouldn't do it.

have fun moving up your promotion ladder.



did i change tack too? :rolleyes: lol

starn

Lil Kitten wrote: »

No, they need to pay into a private pension

Thats not quite true is it. Before investing in AVC's teachers along with all other PS have the option if buying back years.

jester77

Lil Kitten wrote: »

They just objected to wages being cut by 10%. Especially seeing as our job won't get past 60k even after 25 years experience and there are civil servants sitting at their desks doing sweet FA and earning over 100 grand.

then why didn't you become a civil servant?

This is such a hypocritical thread.... greed vs. begrudgery, couldn't be more Irish :rolleyes:

Catari Jaguar

Deleted User wrote: »

and i'll be in my nice office job chatting to people my own age.

cause deep down, i know teaching is a horrible job, dealing with little kids and having to go through the same stuff everyday for the rest of your life. i wouldn't do it.

have fun moving up your promotion ladder.



did i change tack too? :rolleyes: lol

The staff in my school are practically all under 30 and the whole school is like a little family. I don't think teaching is horrible, I love it. Most days I think I'd do it for free. I think you'll find I never mentioned anything about pay or wages. I've just defended against horrible attacks and said you're taking it out on the wrong people. I'm in the INTO but don't make their decisions. I keep out of it. Maybe you should read my posts?

You had a problem with your friend. Take it up with them. I really don't understand any points you're making or what you want to say. I don't' think you do either apart from that you're fed up and jealous.

I can't move up the ladder, because I'll be frozen on the first level. But good luck to you.

Catari Jaguar

jester77 wrote: »

then why didn't you become a civil servant?

This is such a hypocritical thread.... greed vs. begrudgery, couldn't be more Irish :rolleyes:

OMG, People are you retarded? I said STOP TAKING IT OUT ON THE TEACHERS AND TAKE IT OUT ON THE ONES AT THE TOP. We're under threat too.

dolliemix

Johnny Utah wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Most teachers retire at 47 because they can. There is very little/no stress in teaching. There was a programme on RTE radio this morning about people who have lost their jobs in recent months. One of the people interviewed had been working for 40 years and had never claimed benefit. He was called to a meeting and 10 employees were let go. Those employees were let go through no fault of their own.

There was another woman who also lost her job before Christamas. She had been working for twenty years, and then suddenly was let go simply because of the economic downturn. She said that she was afraid that her house was going to be taken off her as she couldn't keep up the mortgage repayments. She only gets 200 euro a week and her mortgage is 100 euro per month. She said she had used up all her life savings to finance the mortgage payments thus far, and she didn't know how she was going to keep up the mortgage now. You could hear the emotion in hear voice. Now, that is a stressful situation. You can't compare this to teaching a classroom of kids for a few hours each day- Get real!


Teachers are unbelievable. They're giving out about a pay freeze for 2 years, whilst thousands are losing their jobs and houses. Time for a reality check, but you are lucky to even have a job. You should be ashamed of yourself!

Good God! You listen to some people on the radio who have lost their jobs and you begin to feel a rage towards teachers!!! There is no link. And completely unconstructive.

Believe me, we have been teaching the children of unemployed and disadvantaged people for years. None of this is new to an experienced teacher.

We truly understand how these people are suffering. We've been listening to and dealing with these emotions for years. Children and parents bring these problems to school, we give them confidence, and instill a sense of worth back in their lives through education.

Thats what we do. What are you doing?

javaboy

Lil Kitten wrote: »

OMG, People are you retarded? I said STOP TAKING IT OUT ON THE TEACHERS AND TAKE IT OUT ON THE ONES AT THE TOP. We're under threat too.

Watch it

Catari Jaguar

javaboy wrote: »

Watch it

I apologise they are driving me mad.

Lil Kitten

Lil Kitten wrote: »

The staff in my school are practically all under 30 and the whole school is like a little family. I don't think teaching is horrible, I love it. Most days I think I'd do it for free. I think you'll find I never mentioned anything about pay or wages. I've just defended against horrible attacks and said you're taking it out on the wrong people. I'm in the INTO but don't make their decisions. I keep out of it. Maybe you should read my posts?

You had a problem with your friend. Take it up with them. I really don't understand any points you're making or what you want to say. I don't' think you do either apart from that you're fed up and jealous.

I can't move up the ladder, because I'll be frozen on the first level. But good luck to you.

ya good luck to you too.

jester77

Lil Kitten wrote: »

OMG, People are you retarded? I said STOP TAKING IT OUT ON THE TEACHERS AND TAKE IT OUT ON THE ONES AT THE TOP. We're under threat too.

I'm not taking it out on teachers. People are complaining that the teachers earn too much and the teachers respond by saying why not become a teacher. Then later on the teachers are complaining about civil servants earning too much. It's all a bit hypocritical... would people be happy if we had a communist state??

im tired of talking about this..


thread is now about the salaries of the HSE



seriously, the amount of money they get for nothing.. it's ridiculous. who's with me?



i feel really really irish right now.

spurious

Most teachers retire at 47.

Can someone provide a link to that extraordinary 'fact'?

toiletduck

Lil Kitten wrote: »

I apologise they are driving me mad.

I'll send you a postcard when I'm off traveling the world and being paid for it. Hahahahah.

Maybe one is linked to the other....


Can't imagine how anyone could last teaching. The same old stuff class after class, year after year. I see why people get pissed at them getting paid during the summer holidays but if we were to pay them by hour we'd have none left!

Catari Jaguar

spurious wrote: »

Most teachers retire at 47.

Can someone provide a link to that extraordinary 'fact'?

Cornmarket research about buying back years, AVCs, salary protection etc. Can't find a link though...

spurious

There will be no link because it is not true.

57 might be a possibility and even then it would not be 'most' teachers.
57 for anyone who went into teaching straight from college would mean buying back 3 or 4 years, far more likely than someone buying 15 years.

Biggins

Himmmm... when all else fails, ya can't provide evidential links requested by others and possible trolling continues... move the goal posts onto other areas!

Someone do the decent thing and lock this thread. Some are getting tired of this continual bitching garbage droning on and on getting nowhere.

If only we could all be so forceful in directing our anger at the REAL appropriate direction - aaa wishful dreams. :rolleyes:

ya i hope it gets locked...

dolliemix

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Cornmarket research about buying back years, AVCs, salary protection etc. Can't find a link though...

I think poster was posting sarcastically. Most teachers do not retire at 47. Another unfounded generalisation

starn

Biggins wrote: »

Himmmm... when all else fails, ya can't provide evidential links requested by others and possible trolling continues

What links has he failed to provide

All the links you have provided where inaccurate and unrilable and shown to be wrong are you sure your your not the one trolling

Catari Jaguar

Yea, let's lock it. We're going in circles. *Now shake hands and be friends*

ya i've requested it ta be locked... we'll see what happens.

mick kk

This thread is hilarious.
Heres my two cents
People seem really annoyed with the 3 months holidays issue. Now, most people get 21 days (a month) anyways and we get 2 on top of that (which is one more month than the holidays of a guarda and similar to the holidays of a lot of media commentators). Teachers used to be paid their salary over 9 months of the year but years ago, the unions asked that it be divided over the 12 months. If the public would prefer a return to paying the years salary over the 9 months sure bang on ahead.


The 22 hour teaching week is also another bone of contention. Now on the face of it, 22 hours a week sounds great but this is class contact time. Again, take those who work in the media such as Joe Duffy for example - he only works two hours per day. Matt Cooper works for 3 or do they do a little preperation before they come on air?

Now, I understand why teachers are unpopular with many adults in Irish society- many people spent from the time they were 4 until at least 16 been leathered, battered, humiliated, punished etc. by the "old school" type of teacher. Also, many parents today get negative notes from teachers, negative comments in report cards, negative letters from schools concerning their little Angel's journey through adolescents.
Also, many teachers tend to be always moaning and giving out about something.... which is a seperate issue which i personally find hilarious - somebody should do research on this.
Also, the teachers who represent the teaching profession in the media often come across very poorly... something I find frustrating...I wish I could distance meself from them but sure what can ya do?


As regards the recession, I know for one I am very glad that I spent 5 years in college and joined the profession (btw, I genuinely love the job and I Put in a 35-40 hour week and a few hours most weekends - now i am not asking for thanks and I am not saying that that is a lot either- but its not 22 hours, that all I'm saying).

I'm also glad and am aware of how lucky I am to have a permanent job and am willing to take a pay freeze if necessary for the good of the country along with everyone else. I am also paying the 1per cent income levy which I am sure is going to rise in the future. I also am highly unlikely to face a dole queue and again, I am grateful for this. The pay I get is ok but, its sucked up by my mortgage on a 3 bed semi-d...even with falling interest rates so I really do not want a pay cut.

Now, Ive said my piece

byhookorbycrook

Mrmoe wrote: »

. Students who fall below a certain level after being assessed should be made to stay in school for the summer. Now I am not saying that they should be made stay all summer in school but I am sure extra weeks of tuition in a smaller class would not be too much to ask for.

Good luck getting that one off the ground, those children that fall behind are often the worst attenders during the school year and try telling the parents they won't be going to Courtown this year! As to being assessed, we have children on a waiting list for over three years waiting to be assessed.

byhookorbycrook

Deleted User wrote: »

no it doesn't matter if a child fails? so few teachers actually care.

And you base this on what?Can't speak for secondary but it's certainly not the case in primary.

thebman

I agree that teachers are taking a lot of pain in this thread and a lot of it is undeserved.

My mother is a teacher although she is retiring and I've shared houses with teachers in the past so I know how much extra work they do.

I also know how much more stressful it is to deal with kids all day over adults in a regular job. They can be little nightmares at times.

byhookorbycrook

toiletduck wrote: »

Maybe one is linked to the other....


Can't imagine how anyone could last teaching. The same old stuff class after class, year after year. I see why people get pissed at them getting paid during the summer holidays but if we were to pay them by hour we'd have none left!

But it's not the same old stuff every year, each class is different and in primary we have lee-way to go with what suits the individual class ,follow their interests, use the locality as a classroom,this is one of the best things about teaching. No two days are the same and it's wonderful to see a reluctant reader suddenly taking flight and choosing a book /project that has inspired them.


I enjoy teaching, it's a great job- not because of pay or holidays, but because you get a chance to make a difference.
It will break your heart when you see the name of a past pupil up in court on drugs charges or such like because you know what they could be and hope that they still will.

I love meeting my ex-students and following their sporting achievements etc in the papers. When they call to my room the day they finish in primary, I tell them to remember how proud we are of them and to always remember that. Sometimes, the only positive experience in these children's lives is their schooltime.





Local history is my passion, I'm glad to say that my past pupils have visited local landmarks with our school and can tell their parents all about them and indeed drag the parents, who have lived in the county all their lives, to see these places.:D


I see people on this thread relating what school was like in their time and presuming that it is still similar. I am teaching for over 20 years and take it from me that education has changed radically, even in the last five.


Teaching is not for those seeking an easy life, it is too important a job for that and underperforming teachers should and increasingly are not tolerated, thankfully.

Pay is not amazing, but nor will we starve. Yes, we have job security ,along with many other jobs, but why should we be slated for this?

Give us a break, please, we are not all in it for the holidays

chosen1

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Give us a break, please, we are not all in it for the holidays

But it does help. I would imagine a fair percentage of people choosing a different career path if it were not for the holidays. Its not the only reason by far though. Teaching only suits some people and most enjoy the work, otherwise they would not remain teaching.

As for the poster who came up with the fact of most teachers retiring at 47; its simply not true. Don't have accurate figures and not going to start making them up but I'm sure it would be closer to 60. New teachers will have to work to 65 now to qualify for their full pension.

thebman

chosen1 wrote: »

But it does help. I would imagine a fair percentage of people choosing a different career path if it were not for the holidays. Its not the only reason by far though. Teaching only suits some people and most enjoy the work, otherwise they would not remain teaching.

Yeah it if was the only reason you went into teaching, I'd imagine you'd quit after a year or two having lost your sanity.

Twinkle-star15

Teachers would be so much more popular with the rest of the population if they only stopped complaining! The days of the teacher and priest being the gems of the community are long over, and it's time they realized it.
I'm in 6th year at the moment, and in some classes, the teachers spend more time gossiping with us and complaining about 'The Recession' than doing work with us! Yes, there are some fantastic teachers, but most of them are sh!te, and completely clueless about the real world.
One of my teachers regularly arrives to class 20 mins late (for a 35 min class), then talks about rugby before giving out to us, then doing half a question with us before the bell goes.
Another teacher informed us, in all seriousness, the the Dell Layoffs (we're a Limerick school) wouldn't affect us, because most people being let go were Polish.
This is to ignore the number of teachers I've come across who just plain don't know their subject! Like the English teacher who doesn't know what 'narcissistic' or 'surreptitious' means.
If that is typical of a teacher's day, then yes, they are seriously overpaid. My mum works in admin in a school, and some teachers have said the most ignorant things to her: like, how lucky for you, you can do all your work at work, then go home at 5 and forget about it! How many private sector workers do you know who can leave the office at 5? Or who don't bring laptops home with them at the weekend?
Add to this the perception that teachers have it easy (I'm not saying they do- trying to get a class of 30 to focus and participate is pretty hard), and it's no wonder most people resent them!
They really should just shut up about the wages thing for a while- people are just getting irritated.

P.S. If you offer to correct L.C. papers (at something like €18 per paper) do NOT complain to me about the 'mountain' of papers you did this summer, or all the correcting teachers have to do. It's part of your job- get over it.


/rant. Sorry.

byhookorbycrook

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

And you base this on what?Can't speak for secondary but it's certainly not the case in primary.

eh my own schooling..

Lockstep

Christ, another train wreck of a thread.

My old man was a teacher in a Dublin inner city school. Anyone who thinks teaching is not a stressful job should give a try to schools dealing with underfunding, endemic local unemployment and the old drugs problem. Tony Gregory's brother taught in the same school, really not the best of places.


Also, many people here seem to have a chip on their shoulders about the holidays. I dunno what your teachers did over the summer but anyone in my family who is a teacher ended up doing grinds and summer school to make extra cash.

IReland got out of the last recession in part due to it's educated workforce. Brilliant idea to lower wages for teachers in the public sector. Just means more will end up in the private sector.

K-9

kickoutthejams wrote: »

IReland got out of the last recession in part due to it's educated workforce. Brilliant idea to lower wages for teachers in the public sector. Just means more will end up in the private sector.

Pay shouldn't be the No.1 consideration in jobs like Guards, Teachers and Nursing. Of the 3, I think the first 2 are reasonably paid, the third could do with more.

GirlInterrupted

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Christ, another train wreck of a thread.

My old man was a teacher in a Dublin inner city school. Anyone who thinks teaching is not a stressful job should give a try to schools dealing with underfunding, endemic local unemployment and the old drugs problem. Tony Gregory's brother taught in the same school, really not the best of places.
.

Certain situations attract only the most altruistic of teachers, and they often spend their entire careers working in the most challenging areas imaginable. Your father is obviously one of them.

And their contribution should be recognised and applauded.

thebman

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Christ, another train wreck of a thread.

My old man was a teacher in a Dublin inner city school. Anyone who thinks teaching is not a stressful job should give a try to schools dealing with underfunding, endemic local unemployment and the old drugs problem. Tony Gregory's brother taught in the same school, really not the best of places.


Also, many people here seem to have a chip on their shoulders about the holidays. I dunno what your teachers did over the summer but anyone in my family who is a teacher ended up doing grinds and summer school to make extra cash.

IReland got out of the last recession in part due to it's educated workforce. Brilliant idea to lower wages for teachers in the public sector. Just means more will end up in the private sector.

I agree teachers are hard working but just fooking try to get a job in the private sector at the moment.

Lockstep

brim4brim wrote: »

I agree teachers are hard working but just fooking try to get a job in the private sector at the moment.

Never meant in this country man.
Friend of my ma worked in a private school.
Place closed as people had less money to send their kids to private school.
THe woman emigrated, much more lucrative opportunities abroad.

Seanies32 wrote: »

Pay shouldn't be the No.1 consideration in jobs like Guards, Teachers and Nursing. Of the 3, I think the first 2 are reasonably paid, the third could do with more.

I doubt many people go into any of those jobs just for the money.
The stress, pressure and skill needed in jobs like these mean people who are in it just for the money would find things much easier elsewhere.

Obama claimes theres no reason why a well skilled, experienced teacher should be paid less than $100,000 a year (average wage for a teacher is around $40k) and that additional money should be provided to those who teach in maths and science or in inner city schools.

Kat Slater

Twinkle-star15 wrote: »

Teachers would be so much more popular with the rest of the population if they only stopped complaining! The days of the teacher and priest being the gems of the community are long over, and it's time they realized it.
I'm in 6th year at the moment, and in some classes, the teachers spend more time gossiping with us and complaining about 'The Recession' than doing work with us! Yes, there are some fantastic teachers, but most of them are sh!te, and completely clueless about the real world.
One of my teachers regularly arrives to class 20 mins late (for a 35 min class), then talks about rugby before giving out to us, then doing half a question with us before the bell goes.
Another teacher informed us, in all seriousness, the the Dell Layoffs (we're a Limerick school) wouldn't affect us, because most people being let go were Polish.
This is to ignore the number of teachers I've come across who just plain don't know their subject! Like the English teacher who doesn't know what 'narcissistic' or 'surreptitious' means.
If that is typical of a teacher's day, then yes, they are seriously overpaid. My mum works in admin in a school, and some teachers have said the most ignorant things to her: like, how lucky for you, you can do all your work at work, then go home at 5 and forget about it! How many private sector workers do you know who can leave the office at 5? Or who don't bring laptops home with them at the weekend?
Add to this the perception that teachers have it easy (I'm not saying they do- trying to get a class of 30 to focus and participate is pretty hard), and it's no wonder most people resent them!
They really should just shut up about the wages thing for a while- people are just getting irritated.

P.S. If you offer to correct L.C. papers (at something like €18 per paper) do NOT complain to me about the 'mountain' of papers you did this summer, or all the correcting teachers have to do. It's part of your job- get over it.


/rant. Sorry.

Have to pick up on a few things there.

I actually don't think teachers complain that much given the crap that goes with the job especially these days. The standard of behaviour has definitely got worse and there is often little comeback from management. Depends on the school I guess.

My old man is a teacher and he does bits of work on the laptop over the weekend and in the evenings to prepare for the next week.

The correction money is not that great for the amount of work involved. My da used to correct coz he needed the money I guess. He doesn't do it anymore but says he would if he could get, say 200 papers instead of the 600 or so that you're given. I think it's mostly the younger newly qualified teachers that correct papers now, I know very few experienced teachers who correct.

I'd disagree with you saying most teachers are s****. I went to a convent school and there were a few disasters but on the whole my teachers were pretty good. Varies I guess from school to school. There are a lot of bad teachers about but I'd say on balance there's a lot more good ones.

For the record I do think bad teachers should be more accountable and made improve. I wouldn't want to see performance related pay. Management do have the freedom to take an underperforming teacher aside and give them a warning. Not sure about what could potentially happen after that, or any legal issues.

Slutmonkey57b

Biggins wrote: »

More unpaid work.

They are salaried employees, your argument is nonsensical. Lesson plans and markings are part of the job description. They are paid for doing the workload, regardless of the time it happens to take, or where they do it. What, pray tell, prevents teachers from doing these lesson plans in their workplace after students have gone home? Hmmmmmmmmm...... ?

* Add to that, the fact that your teacher has to be trained in basic first-aid as they are now LEGALLY responsible for your kids - its called "legal duty of care" and now your teacher is also answerable to their bosses, the government, parents and now to top it off - the courts.

Care to hear a list of other professions where this is a requirement? European H&S regulations mean all workplaces must have first aid training in place and first aiders on staff. Basic first aid training is not that difficult, and not something that requires a rousing cheer from the masses or special renumeration.

Jesus, some people are just down right ungrateful and quick to forget and be thoughtless in the first place!
Its the youth of tomorrow that is being guided, minded, social problems cured, bandaged and care for.

If anyone thinks that job is easy and teachers are under paid - then ye take the frakin' job at a lower rate than the real miserable one it is at the mo!!!

The joy of a major recession is that lots of very qualified, highly capable, motivated workers are let loose on the employment system - and many of them would glady take a teaching job at any rate of pay if the recession is bad enough (which this one will be). The problem is that incompetent teachers are unsackable and disinclined to resign their well paid 3-month off positions. The government is equally disinclined to increase wage budgets when it knows that the taxpayer won't agree to it, and won't man up to weed out the useless ones and replace them.

Anyone who thinks that pay rates for teachers are "miserable" should take a spin around the private sector some time for a nice eye opener into what miserable pay rates look like.

There's a lot of defensiveness within the ranks in teaching - an unwillingness to admit to problems, much less let outsiders in to fix them. The ranting about "cutting substitutes" recently was another good one - well spun by the teachers union as the government cutting teachers. Absolute bull of the lowest order : the Government proposed to cut funding for uncertified sick leave. What does this heinous proposal mean? That teachers would... gasp... have to produce a doctor's note to prove they were ill rather than just calling in sick and bringing a substitute in. Oh god, the horror! Having to go to the doctor when you're too sick to go to work! Welcome to the real world.

Not to mention that by forgoeing their next year's pay increase, substantially more money could have been cut from the budget and none of the proposals would have been needed..... but no, the evil government wanted to bash the poor teachers in the head with unreasonable demands.

One of the reasons the "great unwashed" public is so cynical about public sector pay is the gratuitous bull spouted by public sector unions about what their members "deserve" and the spineless caving by government to their demands.

Teachers are like students - some are brilliant, most are average, some are awful. Some have it very hard, some have it ok, and some have it easy. Yet the system ensures they all get paid as though they're brilliant teachers who have it very hard.

baglady

Johnny Utah wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Most teachers retire at 47 because they can. There is very little/no stress in teaching. There was a programme on RTE radio this morning about people who have lost their jobs in recent months. One of the people interviewed had been working for 40 years and had never claimed benefit. He was called to a meeting and 10 employees were let go. Those employees were let go through no fault of their own.

There was another woman who also lost her job before Christamas. She had been working for twenty years, and then suddenly was let go simply because of the economic downturn. She said that she was afraid that her house was going to be taken off her as she couldn't keep up the mortgage repayments. She only gets 200 euro a week and her mortgage is 100 euro per month. She said she had used up all her life savings to finance the mortgage payments thus far, and she didn't know how she was going to keep up the mortgage now. You could hear the emotion in hear voice. Now, that is a stressful situation. You can't compare this to teaching a classroom of kids for a few hours each day- Get real!


Teachers are unbelievable. They're giving out about a pay freeze for 2 years, whilst thousands are losing their jobs and houses. Time for a reality check, but you are lucky to even have a job. You should be ashamed of yourself!

Are your for ****ing real? HAHAHAHAHAHA. There is 'very little/no stress in teaching'?? you are out of your mind! Clearly you have no experince of teaching. have you even read any of the other posts in this thread showing the kinds of things many teachers go through on a daily basis. Now I'm not going to go on and on about my own experiences in front of a class, but suffice to say yes it is ****ing stressful. No one is denying that those people you were speaking about have stress and worries in their lives but so does every second person you come across these days. go and stand in front of 20 unmotivated disruptive teenagers and try and teach them...then come back here and say it's not stressful. I can't believe the cheek of you coming along belittling something you so obviously know nothing about.

Slutmonkey57b

kickoutthejams wrote: »

My old man was a teacher in a Dublin inner city school. Anyone who thinks teaching is not a stressful job should give a try to schools dealing with underfunding, endemic local unemployment and the old drugs problem. Tony Gregory's brother taught in the same school, really not the best of places.

Not every teacher works in a school like that. In fact, the majority, by simple statisics, don't. A tired argument trotted out to try and put forth the argument that because Teacher A has a hard time, ALL teachers have the SAME hard time and should get the same compensation. The truth is that teachers who are in these sorts of schools should get a bonus and better support, while teachers in other schools should have their pay reduced to reflect the fact that, actually, the 5 year olds in their class are not junkies after all.

Also, many people here seem to have a chip on their shoulders about the holidays. I dunno what your teachers did over the summer but anyone in my family who is a teacher ended up doing grinds and summer school to make extra cash.

They weren't forced into that by poverty, by any stretch of the imagination, given that teacher's pay has been at or above the industrial wage.

IReland got out of the last recession in part due to it's educated workforce.

Total bull****. As the recession is proving, Ireland got out of its recession due to low wages relative to wealthy western european nations, an english-speaking workforce bound by common EU working regulations (multinationals like standardised HR), and last but not least...... *drum roll*
massive BRIBES in the form of 0% corporation tax, a blind eye to "offshoring" profits here, and good old direct "here's a wad of government money, oh and we'll build your factory and rebuild the local infrastructure". Have you noticed what's happening now there are a large chunk of cheaper european nations looking for that multinational cash? We all welcomed Dell when they shut their expensive US plants and moved their business here... now look at us whinge when they shut their expensive Irish plants and move the business to Poland....

As for the educated workforce argument - look at the list of the world's top universities and tell me how many Irish names are prominently placed. More importantly, which nations are churning out all the engineers and scientists now? Not this one....

Brilliant idea to lower wages for teachers in the public sector. Just means more will end up in the private sector.

Not in the current climate they won't.

And to anyone about to whinge that teachers have to teach in "underfunded" schools - if public sector workers (of all kinds) weren't so greedy, there'd be more money to spend on the schools.

spurious

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

the Government proposed to cut funding for uncertified sick leave. What does this heinous proposal mean? That teachers would... gasp... have to produce a doctor's note to prove they were ill rather than just calling in sick and bringing a substitute in.

Actually, that's not what it meant, but this is a pointless thread anyway, so keep on thinking that.

Slutmonkey57b

spurious wrote: »

Actually, that's not what it meant, but this is a pointless thread anyway, so keep on thinking that.

Really? Given that funding for certified sick leave was unaffected, I'd love to hear an explanation to what I'm missing here.

Biggins

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

....I'd love to hear an explanation to what I'm missing...

lol nope... too easy... must...not... go... there... :rolleyes:

baglady

Deleted User wrote: »

this thread has two groups, people who don't think teaching is that hard and teachers putting up a defence for themselves.. which to be honest, no one believes it.

we've all been to school,
we've see them in the staffroom chatting half the day,
we've see them coming into class 5 mins late after chatting to teacher next door
etc.


now, i work in finance and for alot less of a starting salary than teachers..

there are redundancies all over the industry, i'm constantly worried about my job and so are managers with mortgages and families that have been there 10 years.
i regularly work overtime and my schedule for getting work done stresses me out so bad my skin is turnin to muck for first time in years.
22 holidays a year compared to teachers getting all of summer and all of christmas.



teachers come out with arguments about it being a tough job.. that it's stressful??

no. kids being fukers is not stressful.. that's annoying.?! big difference.! at no point during the day when you think you are stressed and writing a note home to a parent about johnny, are you worried about losing your job or meeting a deadline for a client.. your never even facing the prospect of being in till 8 o clock at night since 9 that morning.? and then all over again the next day.

no, teachers don't have stress the same way private sector workers have stress..
i suppose it's cause ye don't know what it feels like to be able to afford a new car out of your salary.. but can't fuking buy the car cause in a year, i may have no job to pay the car loan.
teachers, job security is everything.. ye can keep on spending and doing what ye like during this recession but everyone in the private sector has to slow down, be worried about losing job and cant plan ahead. i even know a teacher who works a 40 hour week ina differert job during the summer... so so so so much money its ridiculous and no fear that the teaching job will disappear.

and if ye do get stressed, there is that three month break where ye can do what ye like.. or christmas. i worked christmas eve this year and had to be working again the monday after cause work had to be done.. 4 day christmas woo!




i am sorta regretting not going down the teaching route to be honest... we all laughed at how teaching was the easy way out for people who couldn't make up their minds about life. and how it's the only job that's arts degree people can get.

well if i could go back, i'd prob give teaching alot more thought.. i have my yearly performance appraisel next week, pretty strict and it determines salary for year coming. i'd much rather go into a job on monday where my performance meant nothing.

if the kids all fail, does it matter? no. teachers have zero accountability and zero room to give out about wages..do you hear private sector workers like myself giving out about wages which are often lower than teachers wages? ever?

no cause we're more worried about whether or not we have a job.. thanks for rubbing it in how terrible it must be do have a job but have to suffer through a pay freeze for a year or two. oh no, the world is gonna end for ye.. cheeky as fuk bitching about a pay freeze while unemplyment soars through the rough. and it's not like it's a pay freeze that is leaving ye on 20k either, ye're already on 30k+. ye'll survive.



big big rant over. more bitching than anything else actually.

Yeah quit your bitching you're giving me a headache. We can all see you're stressed about your job. Your poor skin. Thank God you didn't go down the teaching route or you would have been one of those incompetent teachers so many people are complaining about from their own school days.
Don't forget that there are teachers losing jobs, and aside from them there are many trainees doing the PGDE this year who are faced with low chances of finding a job any time soon. Maybe teachers don't have stress the same way as you do in your sector but do not dare to diminish the stress of the work teachers do.
Missing something you wanted to see on tv, that's annoying. Your laundry getting wet on the line, thats annoying too! And forgetting to buy that one Goddamn thing you went to the shop for in the first place - well I would say that is pretty damn annoying. But don't even try to suggest that standing in front of a group of teenagers who are unmotivated, lacking discipline, difficult, disrespectful and sometimes intimidating and trying to motivate and inspire them even the tiniest bit is ''annoying.'' It is most definitely stressful. If you have no experience of it, then don't judge it. Go try it yourself, then see how you feel ffs. And I'm not saying here that I don't enjoy it, in fact I love doing it, but I recognise that the stress is part of it. Coming out of a class that went well, and the times you get through to the students, well it's a fantastic feeling.
Your second paragraph up there is a gross generalisation, if you want anyone to take what you are saying seriously then I suggest that you refrain from making such bogus assumptions.

RealEstateKing

and spent one year teaching run-of-the-mill Irish kids, and I have to say I was appalled by what I saw. "Ill-discipline" doesnt even begin to describe it.

Im talking about kids bringing knives to class, setting fire to things while you're teaching, constant physical violence, telling you quite literally that you are a ****** and to go **** yourself, and not sometimes, but all day, every day, without any fear of discipline: "Ill give you lines" : "I wont ****in do em" , "Saturday detention" , "I wont ****ing turn up"

None of them had the slightest fear of any of the teachers in the school, and all of them knew full well that the only real power the teachers had over them was to expell them, which they would have been only too happy to have done to them.

How anybody does that for a living is beyond me. Add to this the fact, that a real paying position as a teacher is not something you simply apply for and do an interview. Most people spend 2 or 3 years filling in for pregnant/sick teachers, taking in a few hours here and there and trying to ingratiate themselves with the principal in the vain hope that it might lead to some sort of sustainable work.

Teachers, particularly in this country where the kids are definitely in the top three least well-behaved in the entire world, are ****ing Gods among humans. They deserve 100,000 a year, A fat Christmas bonus, a Company Car, and a complimentary daily blow job for doing what they do. Wiping up after the social mess Ireland's shortsighted, selfish, drunk, ignorant, lazy parents have left behind is a job that only a ****ing saint could do.

Added to this, as the above shamefully ignorant poster fails to see. Teachers do not simply just teach: They are the apex at which all of societies problems meet: They are social workers, psychologists, guidance consellors, crisis resolvers, and occassionally police.

And as I always say to those who by some insane bend of the mind think it's not stressful: You know when you in your private sector job have to give a presentation at a meeting? You know how difficult and nerve-wracking that is? And how your grateful that you only have to do it a few times a year?

Imagine that your job was to do that 5 times a day , every day, not to an audience of nice, polite adults, but to a bunch of pissed off kids who hate you for forcing them to listen to you.

Lockstep

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Not every teacher works in a school like that. In fact, the majority, by simple statisics, don't.

Fact is, there are those that do. And I get extremely sick of hearing people going off on rants on teachers without bothering to hear of the conditions some teachers have to work with.


And I'd love to see your statistics on this.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

A tired argument trotted out

Ah yes, my old man had a tough placement. I wish people would stop referring back to him.
*shakes fist*
Stop trotting out my dad in arguments you damn teachers.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

to try and put forth the argument that because Teacher A has a hard time, ALL teachers have the SAME hard time and should get the same compensation. The truth is that teachers who are in these sorts of schools should get a bonus and better support, while teachers in other schools should have their pay reduced to reflect the fact that, actually, the 5 year olds in their class are not junkies after all.

I agree.
As does Obama.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

They weren't forced into that by poverty, by any stretch of the imagination, given that teacher's pay has been at or above the industrial wage.

Poverty? No.
needing to make extra cash?
Yes.

Or maybe you think that teachers just do summer schools and grinds for the sheer fun of it.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Total bull****.

Oh sweet irony..

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

As the recession is proving, Ireland got out of its recession due to low wages relative to wealthy western european nations,

Not really. It got out of the recession because of an educated cheap workforce.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

an english-speaking workforce bound by common EU working regulations (multinationals like standardised HR), and last but not least...... *drum roll*
massive BRIBES in the form of 0% corporation tax, a blind eye to "offshoring" profits here, and good old direct "here's a wad of government money, oh and we'll build your factory and rebuild the local infrastructure".

These all contributed, but the cheap educated workforce were driving force behind it.
Or maybe you think that foreign companys just wanted undeducated dingbats to do the work.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Have you noticed what's happening now there are a large chunk of cheaper european nations looking for that multinational cash? We all welcomed Dell when they shut their expensive US plants and moved their business here... now look at us whinge when they shut their expensive Irish plants and move the business to Poland....

Possibly because they are now cheap educated workforces?
The Irish workforce may still be educated but is no longer cheap.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

As for the educated workforce argument - look at the list of the world's top universities and tell me how many Irish names are prominently placed. More importantly, which nations are churning out all the engineers and scientists now? Not this one....

Christ, you think that educated workforces all go into academia?
I was referring to service jobs, check out Google and how they actively sought Indian service workers. Because they are (surprise, surprise) cheap and educated.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Not in the current climate they won't.

Did you even read the next post I made?
Or maybe you assume everyone going into the private sector will do so only in Ireland.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

And to anyone about to whinge that teachers have to teach in "underfunded" schools - if public sector workers (of all kinds) weren't so greedy, there'd be more money to spend on the schools.

Ah yes, the old "public servants are greedy" argument.


many people seem to think that public sector workers are all a bunch of HSE consultants on 250k+ a year.
Too many janitors, cleaners and dinner ladies included in this assumption.

Pre celtic tiger, jobs with security like the teaching trade were extremely highly sought after and attracted extremly high numbers of applicants.

Relatvives of mine in the army/teaching/nursing all say how high that once the celtic tiger kicked in, applicants flocked to the private sector as they could make far more money.

Many people went into the public service, during the celtic tiger. Despite lower wages than the private sector, one of the perks was job security and a relatively stable payrise.

The minute the boom ends, we have fingers being pointed at them by many people who made out like bandits during the boom years.

Quite frankly, I would rate a teachers job far higher than (say) somemedia consultant.
kids are a nation's most important natural resource, attracting skilled people to nurture them should be a priority.

Kat Slater

Forgot to add that there's job security once you get a permanent position in a school. But that's not always easy to come by. There are plenty of teachers that have been working in schools on temporary contracts for a good few years and have not been made permanent and could lose their jobs easily enough, esp now with the cutbacks.

I'd say it'll be pretty hard to get a job this year. I know a few people who did not get a year's contract for last September and are going around subbing.

It's not a matter of getting into a school and getting a secure position straight away.

K-9

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Many people went into the public service, during the celtic tiger. Despite lower wages than the private sector, one of the perks was job security and a relatively stable payrise.

The minute the boom ends, we have fingers being pointed at them by many people who made out like bandits during the boom years.

Look benchmarking was introduced, can posters acknowledge that?

The very same Boom enabled Benchmarking and the pay rises of the last 6/7 years.

Personally, seeing as the Boom of the last 4/5 years was property related and false, I think the Benchmarking rises based on that, should be taken back.

baglady

RealEstateKing wrote: »

How anybody does that for a living is beyond me. Add to this the fact, that a real paying position as a teacher is not something you simply apply for and do an interview. Most people spend 2 or 3 years filling in for pregnant/sick teachers, taking in a few hours here and there and trying to ingratiate themselves with the principal in the vain hope that it might lead to some sort of sustainable work.

.

appreciate the supportive post. just wanted to add that when i began the PGDE, we were told it takes on average 6/7 years to find a permanent position :eek:

Dudess

It's a ****ing hard job and no way would I do it - even with those holidays. It must be so frustrating to be a teacher and hear people constantly moaning about the holidays. So get the kids to start attending school all year round then - I'm sure that would work a treat...

Slutmonkey57b

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Fact is, there are those that do. And I get extremely sick of hearing people going off on rants on teachers without bothering to hear of the conditions some teachers have to work with.

Guess who has a sibling who is a teacher?

Me.

And I'd love to see your statistics on this.

The national statistics office and the Department of Social Welfare provide annual statistics on the demographics of the population and the number of "at risk" families on the books, junkies, children taken into care etc. Problem areas have a much higher profile, thus resulting in whole schools which are full of troublesome pupils, instead of all schools having an even distribution. So my point isn't "statistics prove your dad never had that problem", it's "statistics disprove the argument that *all* teachers have that problem".

Ah yes, my old man had a tough placement. I wish people would stop referring back to him.
*shakes fist*
Stop trotting out my dad in arguments you damn teachers.

Nobody would mind the teachers trotting out the "your dad" stories in their various rants - if they were actually looking for more help for the teachers that need it. Instead, they're looking for the same blank cheque for every teacher, regardless of circumstance, merit or performance, and ensuring as a result that the teachers that need the support and funding can't get enough of it.

I agree.
As does Obama.

He's not elected here. Thus of no help to your argument.

Poverty? No.
needing to make extra cash?
Yes.

The point being, lots of other people making less money doing rough jobs also need to make extra cash. They don't have 3 months off to get a 2nd job to do it though. Ergo, teachers are better off, and the suggestion that they are somehow martyred to the cause of working through their holiday is bogus.

Not really. It got out of the recession because of an educated cheap workforce.

The majority of jobs bussed in by multinationals are low-level assembly line work. If you're of the opinion that that's something that requires an "educated" workforce, you have a much lower definition of "educated" than I do. The speed at which said jobs are being shed or moved tells you how valuable our educational skills are. (and bear in mind it's not all down to the credit crunch)

These all contributed, but the cheap educated workforce were driving force behind it.
Or maybe you think that foreign companys just wanted undeducated dingbats to do the work.

I don't have to think anything of the sort - it's mostly true. Even the high-level employers like Microsoft are mostly doing dingbat localisation or distribution work here. Valuable, educated R&D type work never took off here - as the Digital Media Hub proved. Intel are the only exception, but a) they bussed in their engineers in the first place, and b) it's cheaper to build a new fab in a new country than to keep upgrading an old one, so don't expect it to last unless the government keeps up the bribes.

Possibly because they are now cheap educated workforces?
The Irish workforce may still be educated but is no longer cheap.

Thus proving my point that cheap is a motivating factor, while educated is not.

Christ, you think that educated workforces all go into academia?
I was referring to service jobs, check out Google and how they actively sought Indian service workers. Because they are (surprise, surprise) cheap and educated.

You're seriously stating the Indian outsourcing services are successful because of the educated workforce? The education of the workforce is a patina the mother company can paint on a massive cost saving plan. The type of work that is outsourced in the service sector is generally derided in terms of quality, and is starting to get repatriated as the wage levels in India rise to the point that customer losses due to decreased service levels becomes a mitigating factor against the savings made by the outsourcing.

Ah yes, the old "public servants are greedy" argument.
many people seem to think that public sector workers are all a bunch of HSE consultants on 250k+ a year.
Too many janitors, cleaners and dinner ladies included in this assumption.

The public don't think that at all. They think that public sector workers are overpaid relative to what they would earn in the private sector for the same quality of work, and that the quality of work provided by public sector workers is significantly lower than what they would be allowed to get away with in the private sector.

Pre celtic tiger, jobs with security like the teaching trade were extremely highly sought after and attracted extremly high numbers of applicants.

Proving we haven't got good value for money out of them - as I pointed out before, the government's fault for not having the balls.

Relatvives of mine in the army/teaching/nursing all say how high that once the celtic tiger kicked in, applicants flocked to the private sector as they could make far more money.

Not by doing the same work though.

The minute the boom ends, we have fingers being pointed at them by many people who made out like bandits during the boom years.

No, the finger pointing is being done by people who *haven't* made out like bandits, and don't have benefits like "job security" (unsackable even in the case of senility, alcoholism, gross incompetence, sexual abuse of children....) or "pay increases" (automatic wage rises above the rate of inflation without any sort of performance review system, change in working practices or merit).

Quite frankly, I would rate a teachers job far higher than (say) somemedia consultant.
kids are a nation's most important natural resource, attracting skilled people to nurture them should be a priority.

Suggesting that teachers are overpaid relative to the work the *majority* of them do is not the same as stating that the work they do is unimportant. Teachers in problem schools deserve more support. This does not mean that all teachers deserve the same level of renumeration, regardless of the quality of their work, the effort they put in, or the circumstances they teach in. And when even scumbag government ministers are taking a pay cut, for the teachers to cry not only immunity, but to refuse to give up next year's increases, just paints them as greedier and greedier.