Chaplet of Divine Mercy

Pamela111

This is a prayer for Catholics asking God for mercy for our sins and the sins of others. It is also very powerful for the conversion of sinners, especially sinners in your own family or circle of friends.

The great hour of mercy is from 3pm to 4pm.

Details on this prayer can be found here:
http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm

kelly1

I read St. Faustina's Diary - great book - highly recommended.

Pamela111

1. Begin with the Sign of the Cross, 1 Our Father, 1 Hail Mary and The Apostles Creed.

2. Then on the Our Father Beads say the following:
Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.


3. On the 10 Hail Mary Beads say the following:
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
(Repeat step 2 and 3 for all five decades).

4. Conclude with (3 times):
Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

Pamela111

kelly1 wrote: »

I read St. Faustina's Diary - great book - highly recommended.

Yes. A very good read and very helpful.

philologos

Just a question about Roman Catholic prayer, is it always a matter of routine or do you ever speak to God on a personal level rather than saying however amount of Hail Maries. I don't intend to be offensive, I am just curious. I wasn't raised in the Roman Catholic church.

MatthewVII

Pamela111 wrote: »

It is also very powerful for the conversion of sinners

As a matter of interest, how does one grade how powerful prayers are? Do different prayers have different petitioning strengths? ie would the Our Father hold more water than the Glory Be because it was taught by Jesus?

This is a serious matter of interest, I'm just wondering if God listens to the content or the framework

Phototoxin

This is a prayer for Catholics asking God for mercy for our sins and the sins of others. It is also very powerful for the conversion of sinners, especially sinners in your own family or circle of friends.

Hasn't God already given people mercy for their sins. It gets confusing. also isn't everyone as sinner (except god and if you're a catholic mary) so not everyone needs conversion. Finally how is it more effective on friends and family?

kelly1

Jakkass wrote: »

Just a question about Roman Catholic prayer, is it always a matter of routine or do you ever speak to God on a personal level rather than saying however amount of Hail Maries. I don't intend to be offensive, I am just curious. I wasn't raised in the Roman Catholic church.

Yes of course, we do both. Catholics pray to Mary because Mary points the way to Jesus. She's the perfect example of how to be a disciple of Christ. She was given to us as our mother as Jesus died on the cross and like any good mother, she takes care of us. She intercedes for us and Jesus always listens to her petitions (e.g. marriage at Cana).

We know all grace comes from Jesus and that He redeemed us. Mary, like the other saints, is another "aid" provided by God to help us towards salvation.

Personally, it depends on my mood. Jesus constantly amazes me with His love, mercy and humility. When I'm down in the dumps, I ask Jesus for mercy and Mary for her intercession/prayers. She's there at the right hand of her Son!

MatthewVII wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how does one grade how powerful prayers are? Do different prayers have different petitioning strengths? ie would the Our Father hold more water than the Glory Be because it was taught by Jesus?

This is a serious matter of interest, I'm just wondering if God listens to the content or the framework[/QUOTE]
Tough one to answer. I reckon any prayer that re-offers the Sacrifice of Calvary to the Father anew, has to be the most powerful. But I'm sure God listens to all prayer, especially if heartfelt and sincere.

Phototoxin wrote: »

Hasn't God already given people mercy for their sins. It gets confusing. also isn't everyone as sinner (except god and if you're a catholic mary) so not everyone needs conversion.

God only forgives when we ask forgiveness as far as I can see. Having said that, people can offer up their own suffering/prayers on behalf of other sinners to appease God, in the hope that He will show them greater mercy e.g by causing their conversion through grace.

Pamela111

Jakkass wrote: »

Just a question about Roman Catholic prayer, is it always a matter of routine or do you ever speak to God on a personal level rather than saying however amount of Hail Maries. I don't intend to be offensive, I am just curious. I wasn't raised in the Roman Catholic church.

Personally, I often speak to God in my own words and He has always answered my prayers except for one which I now know is not for me and would actually be damaging to my soul. I particularly use my own words between decades of the rosary.

When you say the Hail Mary you are speaking to God through Mary, the woman clothed in the sun chosen to be the mother of God incarnate.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee, blessed arth thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."

These words are mainly from the Bible, the Bible is God's words spoken/written through many people.

The more faith and sincereness in our prayers the more powerfull they become. They are not meant to be a ryhme or routine as you say.

Pamela111

MatthewVII wrote: »

As a matter of interest, how does one grade how powerful prayers are? Do different prayers have different petitioning strengths? ie would the Our Father hold more water than the Glory Be because it was taught by Jesus?

The power of prayer depends on our faith and on whether or not what we ask for is God's will or in the best interest of our souls.

For example; I could have 100% faith and 100% faith that my prayers will be answered. However, if I ask for say to become rich and successful then regardless of my faith then its very likely that my prayers will be ignored as this would be damaging to my soul. This is why we should always start and end prayers with "If it is God's will". One could say the same about praying for exams or the economy or anything materialistic.

In revelations to saints I think it has been said that the power of the intercessor is most powerful on his/her official church feast day. Every saint and angel has a specific task. For example; I have found Saint Michael the Archangel to be extremely powerful for overcoming something that was happening to me recently. I kept falling into a trap. St Michael the Archangel's task is to help us overcome the traps set by the evil spirits. Saint Raphael the Archangel keeps us safe when travelling.

The saints and archangels are our friends. They are here to help us when we need a specific task. They cannot forgive us our sins but they can intercede for us at the hour of our death and also intercede for us right now to help our souls and/or our well being. They can only do this by means of the power that God delegates to them.

Of course, for overcoming evil and sin Saint Michael the archangel is very powerful since he was one of the angels that helped drive out Lucifer and the evil angels out of heaven. He has great power in helping us overcome evil and God has given him to us to help us in this area.

Our Lady is the woman clothed in the sun sent down for the end of times to help bring as many souls to her son Jesus, as possible. She helps convert sinners and promotes prayer, confession and penance. Regardless of whatever sin we have she can intercede for us with God. The measure of her assistance is a measure of the faith that we have when we pray. She promises that anyone who has devotion to her (daily recitation of the rosary) shall not perish. She can give this promise based on 2 things:

1. She will guide us to avoid mortal sin and reduce venal sin.
2. She ensures that we get the sacrements at the hour of our death (everyone I know that has had such a devotion has indeed received the sacrements before they die).

Also, as her heart is equivalent to the heart of Jesus if she accepts our failings so will Jesus since they both have the same hearts.

As regards praying to God directly, this is of course also very powerful but God has given very specific tasks to His angels and saints and the greater the devotion to them the greater their power. God has given His angels and saints very specific powers to help us and its upto us to make the most of these, especially in the times that are in it.

Pamela111

3pm to 4pm today is the hour of great mercy for January 21st 2009:

If you spend the full hour reciting this prayer you will get a great peace and joy at the end of the hour. I think it is very good to do it in front of the Blessed Sacrement.

If you cannot do the full hour today because of work etc then maybe you can do it on Saturday and/or Sunday

At three o'clock, implore My mercy, especially for sinners; and, if only for a brief moment, immerse yourself in My Passion, particularly in My abandonment at the moment of agony. This is the hour of great mercy ... In this hour I will refuse nothing to the soul that makes a request of Me in virtue of My Passion. (Diary 1320).


As often as you hear the clock strike the third hour immerse yourself completely in My mercy, adoring and glorifying it, invoke it's omnipotence for the whole world, and particularly for poor sinners, for at that moment mercy was opened wide for every soul. In this hour you can obtain everything for yourself and for others for the asking; it was the hour of grace for the whole world - mercy triumphed over justice.
Try your best to make the Stations of the Cross in this hour, provided that your duties permit it; and if you are not able to make the Stations of the Cross, then at least step into the chapel for a moment and adore, in the Most Blessed Sacrament. My Heart, which is full of mercy: and should you be unable to step into chapel. immerse yourself in prayer there where you happen to be, if only for a very brief instant. (Diary 1572)

Pamela111

The stations of the cross are described here:
http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/station.php

philologos

Pamela, is there any Biblical reasoning behind the intercession of saints?

If you have faith and believe in Christ, He will defend you before the Father.

kelly1

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

If you have faith and believe in Christ, He will defend you before the Father.

Why would he want to "defend" you? Against what? And aren't Jesus and god the same, suggesting that defense isn't going to achieve much? And doesn't god know everything anyway -- what's there to defend?

Húrin

robindch wrote: »

Why would he want to "defend" you? Against what? And aren't Jesus and god the same, suggesting that defense isn't going to achieve much? And doesn't god know everything anyway -- what's there to defend?

In the Bible there is a metaphor used: "the book of life". It contains the names of those who believe in Jesus and will be spared the destruction that will come upon everyone else at the last judgement. Of course, God the father knows the contents of this book, but the phrase is used to emphasise the intercession on our behalf that was the atonement of Jesus on the cross.

Pamela111

Taken from http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/coming.htm

You will prepare the world for My final coming. (Diary 429)

Speak to the world about My mercy ... It is a sign for the end times. After it will come the Day of Justice. While there is still time, let them have recourse to the fountain of My mercy. (Diary 848)

Tell souls about this great mercy of Mine, because the awful day, the day of My justice, is near. (Diary 965).

I am prolonging the time of mercy for the sake of sinners. But woe to them if they do not recognize this time of My visitation. (Diary 1160).

Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588)

He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice. (Diary 1146).

Pamela111

In addition to these words of Our Lord Sr. Faustina gives us the Words of the Mother of Mercy, the Blessed Virgin,

You have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Him who will come, not as a merciful Savior, but as a just Judge. Oh how terrible is that day! Determined is the day of justice, the day of divine wrath. The angels tremble before it. Speak to souls about this great mercy while it is still the time for granting mercy. (Diary 635).

It is clear that, like the message of Fátima, the urgency here is the urgency of the Gospel, "repent and believe." The exact timing is the Lord's. However, it is also clear that we have reached some critical phase of the end times that began with the birth of the Church. To this fact Pope John Paul II alluded at the consecration in 1981 of the Shrine of Merciful Love in Collevalenaza, Italy, when he noted the "special task" assigned to him by God "in the present situation of man, the Church and the world." In His Encyclical on the Father he urges us "to implore God's mercy for humanity in this hour of history ... to beg for it at this difficult, critical phase of the history of the Church and of the world as we approach the end of the second millennium." (Rich in Mercy 15)

philologos

Surely this is adding to the Gospel? (Galatians 1:8)

Especially this:

Pamela111 wrote:

I am prolonging the time of mercy for the sake of sinners. But woe to them if they do not recognize this time of My visitation.

So acceptance of Jesus Christ and his resurrection doesn't matter, one must also accept the revelation to Faustina even when that is in contradiction to other scripture.

Pamela111

Jakkass wrote: »

Surely this is adding to the Gospel? (Galatians 1:8)

Especially this:


So acceptance of Jesus Christ and his resurrection doesn't matter, one must also accept the revelation to Faustina even when that is in contradiction to other scripture.

What? He is saying that we recognise the time that we are living in woe to us. We must convert, repent and wait for His coming.

Convert and repent - this is what the New Testament is all about!

philologos

Note the words "this time" of my revelation. This would indicate that if one doesn't accept the revelation of Faustina in particular there will be woe upon them. Or maybe I am misinterpreting this quotation. I'm not well versed in Faustina's diary.

sorella

Jakkass; someone said once re these things that it depends on whether you want to call directly, or go via an exchange.

These are not vital prayers; but some find them a help.

Many prefer to simply trust Jesus ...and need not these latter messages.

So you are right of course.

Just as Marian devotion is not compulsory.

Many see no need to ask Mary or any saint, but see Jesus as our one Avocate and Mediator.

Blessings this night...

noel farrell

i have to agree with jackkass this is adding to scripture . it says in timothy 2v5 for there is only one god and only mediator between god and men the man christ jesus . and in john 14 v6 i am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me . mary was a wonder full woman and done gods work like any other follower of the way the word of god points me to jesus god bless

Phototoxin

She's the perfect example of how to be a disciple of Christ.

no she isn't as she hadn' original sin so there is no comparison. She had benifits that we don't

suffering/prayers on behalf of other sinners to appease God, in the hope that He will show them greater mercy e.g by causing their conversion through grace.

a God that uses suffering to cancel percieved harm is pretty twisted. I dont mean to be offensive but the more I think about it the more evil it seems.

So acceptance of Jesus Christ and his resurrection doesn't matter, one must also accept the revelation to Faustina even when that is in contradiction to other scripture.

the RCC teaches that private revelations while possibly legit, dont supercede tradtions or scripture and if legit will never contradict it.

Just as Marian devotion is not compulsory

yeah but beliveing she was assumed and beliving in the immaculate conception is compulsary for a catholic

noel farrell

it says in romans 3v23 please read all have fallen short of the glory of god it doesent say except mary so we are not to go down the road of private revelation we dont know where it comes from it needs to be tested by the written word

santing

sorella wrote: »

Just as Marian devotion is not compulsory.

Sorella, I think you are nearly 2 centuries behind the facts. The last RC Catechism in which Marian Devotion was not compulsary was printed in Dublin AD 1855. According to the last catechism: "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."

sorella wrote: »

Many see no need to ask Mary or any saint, but see Jesus as our one Avocate and Mediator.

It is good to see that there are still many who have not fallen into -what other churches say - idolatry. But it still stands that the official teaching says that she "is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." If we look at unofficial teaching, ... well, let's not go near it.

philologos

noel farrell wrote: »

it says in romans 3v23 please read all have fallen short of the glory of god it doesent say except mary so we are not to go down the road of private revelation we dont know where it comes from it needs to be tested by the written word

Agreed Noel, but granted this is the Reformed view of grace and salvation, Marian devotions are very much in a Catholic view of scripture and grace. Noah was righteous in his walk with God, before he fell into drunkeness. All human beings in the history of mankind and particularly as noted in divine revelation have fallen short of God's glory.

I personally believe that works only come as the result of faith:
Faith -> Works (fruits of the Spirit)
not Works -> Faith

Mary as a servant of the Lord our God, celebrated her role, and was one who humbled herself to be exhalted. Her role is crucial in the Christian narrative, however I do stop at the point where we call her sinless.

I believe that Moses was the mediator between man and God of the Old Covenant, and also the prophets, but in terms of salvation Jesus Christ as Lord is the only means.

However, I welcome any discussion on this topic and I am open to what the Scriptures can teach me, I am by no means a Biblical scholar.

sorella

Gee!

This does not mean compulsory...

Mediatrix is not in the RCC.

That is for Jesus alone.

The child of a Protestant friend here told re a four leaved clover beng promulgated...

And in all these things we have the right of individual conscience as the Holy Father himself teaches.

Blessings this day

santing wrote: »

Sorella, I think you are nearly 2 centuries behind the facts. The last RC Catechism in which Marian Devotion was not compulsary was printed in Dublin AD 1855. According to the last catechism: "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."
It is good to see that there are still many who have not fallen into -what other churches say - idolatry. But it still stands that the official teaching says that she "is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." If we look at unofficial teaching, ... well, let's not go near it.

Puck

sorella wrote: »

Mediatrix is not in the RCC.

I could be wrong (and it would be great in this case if I was) but if you look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 6, statement number 969 (hosted on the Vatican website here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM ) it says:

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

Pamela111

Divine Mercy in the Bible

Isaias 1: 17
And then come, and accuse me, saith the Lord: if your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow: and if they be red as crimson, they shall be white as wool.

Almost the same words uttered to Saint Faustina

Pamela111

noel farrell wrote: »

i have to agree with jackkass this is adding to scripture . it says in timothy 2v5 for there is only one god and only mediator between god and men the man christ jesus . and in john 14 v6 i am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me . mary was a wonder full woman and done gods work like any other follower of the way the word of god points me to jesus god bless

There is only one God and only one mediator for the forgiveness of sins, Jesus Christ. Saying that Mary is a mediator for graces does not counteract this.

The angels and saints are mediators between us and God for the granting of miracles and graces including last rights before death. This is not contradictory with scripture.

santing

Pamela111 wrote: »

There is only one God and only one mediator for the forgiveness of sins, Jesus Christ.

Why do you limit the office of the Lord Jesus? The Bible doesn't restrict his mediation to "the forgiveness of sins"

Pamela111 wrote: »

Saying that Mary is a mediator for graces does not counteract this.

The Lord Jesus is the only mediator, so says God's Word. By adding words you do not counteract it, you nullify it.

Pamela111 wrote: »

The angels and saints are mediators between us and God for the granting of miracles and graces including last rights before death. This is not contradictory with scripture.

Is it not? Are angels mediators or servants? Where in Scripture do we find support for this?

sorella

santing; let me look at that re mary; and get some clear advice...there is a move in some circles to accept mary as "mediatrix" and the general thought is that if this is done, the RCC will split wide open.

For the reasons you state.

Honour mary, but worship her and make her equal with Jesus..? That is heresy and worse

I think that this is semantics; a loose usage of a technical word that has been blown out of its intended meaning by lay folk without theological training; which is why it can be a dangerous book:)

It means maybe no more than that we "can" ask her to pray..

But for me and so many, it is always and only Jesus; we are His Brides simply as Nuns.

so in love with Him we can see no further and seek not to do so....

I raised this on Catholic Answers forum, and their theologians assured me that marian devotion is not compulsory and neither is the rosary.

The Chaplet seems to help some; but if you have the Lord Jesus, what need for anything else?
Blessings and thanks...

santing wrote: »

Why do you limit the office of the Lord Jesus? The Bible doesn't restrict his mediation to "the forgiveness of sins"

The Lord Jesus is the only mediator, so says God's Word. By adding words you do not counteract it, you nullify it.


Is it not? Are angels mediators or servants? Where in Scripture do we find support for this?

sorella

Puck : I just checked this; please do not take any part of these writings in isolation; read the next para?

Their formula is to make a statement, then explain it more fully.

See what I mean?

And words like "intrinsic" do not mean compulsory either.

It is hard reading because so tightly written.

All traditions honour Mary in their own way.

Wesley had a great Marian devotion and carried a rosary in his pocket at all times.

Blessings...

Puck wrote: »

I could be wrong (and it would be great in this case if I was) but if you look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 6, statement number 969 (hosted on the Vatican website here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM ) it says:

philologos

sorella wrote: »

Honour mary, but worship her and make her equal with Jesus..? That is heresy and worse

I'd agree with you totally on this.

sorella wrote: »

I think that this is semantics; a loose usage of a technical word that has been blown out of its intended meaning by lay folk without theological training; which is why it can be a dangerous book:)

Again, this is very wise advice. The English translations of the Bible can often obscure the meaning of the words themselves. I'm looking to get a copy of Strongs Concordance or something similar for myself, as I've found this is the case in many passages that seem contradictory at a first look, but you find that the word in Greek means something quite different from what it is represented in English.

sorella wrote: »

It means maybe no more than that we "can" ask her to pray..

This depends on Mary and other people we know in heaven being able to hear what is happening on the earth. That would be an interesting one to explore, and if there was Biblical suggestions that this was true, I'd be right behind you.

sorella wrote: »

But for me and so many, it is always and only Jesus; we are His Brides simply as Nuns.

The first clause of his sentence is brilliant, and this would resonate my view.

However concerning nuns being the bride of Jesus I'm not so sure I can accept this notion. You are a part of Christ's body but yet are married to Jesus? You may have opted for celibacy and indeed that is a choice that is to be made, and Christ and Paul both encouraged this stance in the Gospels and the Apostolic letters, however this doesn't give me credence to suggest that you are "married to Jesus". Without trying to offend, if we are to apply this to the priests being celibate the same logic would offend many in the Roman Catholic Church.

In the Bible, the prophets seem to suggest an analogous relationship between God and His people Israel in terms of bridegroom and bride.

Jeremiah 16:9 would be an example, but this runs throughout the prophetic books and also features in Ezekiel if I can recall correctly.

so in love with Him we can see no further and seek not to do so....

sorella wrote: »

I raised this on Catholic Answers forum, and their theologians assured me that marian devotion is not compulsory and neither is the rosary.

Interesting. This could allow for Catholicism to be a very broad church, but it is pretty much uniform in Catholicism for the Rosary, and for Marian devotion. The Church could undergo a great change if in some cases these weren't a part of worship. However there would be large debate in the Church over this.

sorella wrote: »

The Chaplet seems to help some; but if you have the Lord Jesus, what need for anything else?
Blessings and thanks...

Brilliant, purely brilliant and refreshing to read about the Roman Catholic Church from a different perspective. Jesus is the means to our salvation, and people should consider this before human traditions. However tradition in worship can be valuable, but never above Biblical truth.

santing

sorella wrote: »

<..>
Honour mary, but worship her and make her equal with Jesus..? That is heresy and worse

I think that this is semantics; a loose usage of a technical word that has been blown out of its intended meaning by lay folk without theological training; which is why it can be a dangerous book:)

I did a scan through vatican.va, I thought that postings there cannot be accused of wrong semantics. Herewith an article "ADIUTRICEM", ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON THE ROSARY

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.

• none attains salvation except through thee (?)
• none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee?

I don't think this means that salvation and gifts are only available beause the Lord Jesus was born...

Puck

sorella wrote: »

Puck : I just checked this; please do not take any part of these writings in isolation; read the next para?

Their formula is to make a statement, then explain it more fully.

See what I mean?

And words like "intrinsic" do not mean compulsory either.

It is hard reading because so tightly written.

All traditions honour Mary in their own way.

Wesley had a great Marian devotion and carried a rosary in his pocket at all times.

Blessings...

Hi sorella, while I didn't have time to read the whole catechism or even the whole chapter I did look on to the next statement, which did kind of take the edge off of #969 if you know what I mean. However the catechism still does use the title Mediatrix in reference to Mary, which does kind of counter your claim that "Mediatrix is not in the RCC".

Maybe this is unnecessary but I feel I should point out that I am not in any way claiming that you worship Mary or that I doubt your salvation.

sorella

Thank you...

It is a "dangerous" book because folk who are anti-rc tend to pick up on a word like this.

After all, if you pray for someone, are you not in a sense mediating for them?

You see what I mean?

This mediatrix is not the thing you think it is here;but a technical term. Theologians are out of touch with the lay folk.

Yes I was surpised to see it thus; what I was thinking of theough was the CO-Mediatrix movement; sorry ; I am getting over flu and not always on the ball.

Co-mediatrix is a very different matter; raising Mary to be equal with Jesus..


Blessings; and no, no Mary-worship here. Deep respect and honour but no more. The line though is very narrow between one and t'other.

Puck wrote: »

Hi sorella, while I didn't have time to read the whole catechism or even the whole chapter I did look on to the next statement, which did kind of take the edge off of #969 if you know what I mean. However the catechism still does use the title Mediatrix in reference to Mary, which does kind of counter your claim that "Mediatrix is not in the RCC".

Maybe this is unnecessary but I feel I should point out that I am not in any way claiming that you worship Mary or that I doubt your salvation.

sorella

What date is that please?

Mind you, if someone really wants to , they can find something to prove anything:)

And yes, there is a certain theological logic in that; and yes, simply that mary is seen as Theotokos.

It is tortuous, but not what it seems; and you are right in your last statement. It does mean just that; read it again?

If Mary had not given birth to Jesus?

There is a knack to reading these things; often takes theological training.

santing wrote: »

I did a scan through vatican.va, I thought that postings there cannot be accused of wrong semantics. Herewith an article "ADIUTRICEM", ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON THE ROSARY

• none attains salvation except through thee (?)
• none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee?

I don't think this means that salvation and gifts are only available beause the Lord Jesus was born...

sorella

Jakkas; tough!

Nuns have always been Brides of Christ; our Vows and our commitment are overtly Spousal.

We wear His ring. Forsaking all other...

And we do not 'opt" we are called; and Monastic celibacy has almost nothing to do with sex.

So whether you can accept it really is immaterial my dear friend:)

This has been so since the birth of the faith.

Although since Vatican 2 sometimes that has changed also.

And no. priestly celibacy is a totally different matter; and RC is the only denom that still insists on this. Orthodoxy allows priests to marry; but Bishops are always hieromonks.

But please don't let me get startd on that!!!

"However concerning nuns being the bride of Jesus I'm not so sure I can accept this notion. You are a part of Christ's body but yet are married to Jesus? You may have opted for celibacy and indeed that is a choice that is to be made, and Christ and Paul both encouraged this stance in the Gospels and the Apostolic letters, however this doesn't give me credence to suggest that you are "married to Jesus". Without trying to offend, if we are to apply this to the priests being celibate the same logic would offend many in the Roman Catholic Church."

sorella

Not at all. The thing is that you tend from the outside to hear only the ones who speak loudly.

And you hear generalisations.

There are huge personal variations; we are not clones.

Sr Wendy Beckett for example; she is a Consecrated Virgin, living in a caravan as a hermit in the grounds of a Carmelite Convent in the UK. Wrote a beautiful essay re the rosary; that she did not pray it because it did nothing for her as prayer, but that she knew many for whom it was a great form of prayer.

And that sums it up.

Prayer takes so many forms, does it not?

And look at t this way; have you ever heard of anyone feeling they need to confess that they do not pray the rosary, or ask Mary for help?

If it were compulsory, or as the word goes, obligatory, then that would be required. As missing Mass is.

If it helps, fine; if not, fine also.

And no, no great debate; it ahs always been thus. After all, the rosary is only a few centuries old, and was originally intended for use by those who could not read; a way for them to count the "Our Fathers" they prayed instead of praying the psalms.

I love to make them, and to teach them, including the scriptural rosary, and of course we sell them.....

"Interesting. This could allow for Catholicism to be a very broad church, but it is pretty much uniform in Catholicism for the Rosary, and for Marian devotion. The Church could undergo a great change if in some cases these weren't a part of worship. However there would be large debate in the Church over this."

kelly1

My 2c...

I personally believe that Mary is far more important that most of us realize and I'm not saying that she is divine or anything of the sort. I believe that Mary does have or can have a part to play in our salvation. But let me clarify what I mean by this.

As a Catholic, I don't believe my salvation is certain because I'm a weak human being and I have the free will to reject God's grace. I know grace helps me do God's will but I am free to be selfish. To put it another way, there is no guarantee that I will persevere to the end and die in a state of grace. Having said that I put my trust in God, that at the end of the day, I will be saved though His mercy.

I believe devotion to Mary isn't necessary for salvation but is a short-cut to advancing spiritually i.e. getting closer to Jesus. Mary shows us the way to Jesus. As any good mother would do, she guides and protects her children. You might have heard of the phrase "To Jesus through Mary". The end-goal is always Jesus. Mary, the saints and our guardian angel are "aids" to helping us grow spiritually.

Therefore I think our chances of being saved are greater if we invoke the intercession of Mary etc. I fully understand that all grace comes from Jesus and that without His death on the cross, no-one is saved.

I also believe that Mary was conceived free of original sin and that she lives a sinless life (as God intended for Adam and Eve). She didn't suffer from the weaknesses that we do. I read somewhere that it was necessary for Mary to be sinless because she was to be the Theotokos or God-bearer and that an ordinary woman conceived with original sin just wouldn't be worthy to carry the Son of God (or God the Son).

philologos

kelly1 wrote: »

As a Catholic, I don't believe my salvation is certain because I'm a weak human being and I have the free will to reject God's grace. I know grace helps me do God's will but I am free to be selfish. To put it another way, there is no guarantee that I will persevere to the end and die in a state of grace. Having said that I put my trust in God, that at the end of the day, I will be saved though His mercy.

Do you believe that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus? (Romans 8:1)

If so, let the Spirit guide you, even Paul said that he hadn't acheived the goal.

Phillippians 3:12 wrote:

"Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own"

If you need strength pray to the Lord, however Mary is a servant of God just like you are, and struggled the same ways we do. Indeed she humbled herself so, that she is exhalted before God. However, I don't believe that Mary will have any impact upon the Day of Judgement, but rather your salvation and belief in Christ Jesus will.

kelly1 wrote: »

I believe devotion to Mary isn't necessary for salvation but is a short-cut to advancing spiritually i.e. getting closer to Jesus. Mary shows us the way to Jesus. As any good mother would do, she guides and protects her children. You might have heard of the phrase "To Jesus through Mary". The end-goal is always Jesus. Mary, the saints and our guardian angel are "aids" to helping us grow spiritually.

We live our lives through Jesus, and through prayer He will grant us what we need to carry out our ministry on earth surely. I don't understand this really I guess though.

kelly1 wrote: »

Therefore I think our chances of being saved are greater if we invoke the intercession of Mary etc. I fully understand that all grace comes from Jesus and that without His death on the cross, no-one is saved.

How? Salvation comes through Christ alone, in faith alone by grace alone surely? Would be a very very interesting thread to discuss though I must admit. I'm willing to accept I am wrong if people can guide me through the Scriptures. I just don't understand how Mary although a blessed servant of God she was can increase our chances of salvation.

kelly1 wrote: »

I also believe that Mary was conceived free of original sin and that she lives a sinless life (as God intended for Adam and Eve). She didn't suffer from the weaknesses that we do. I read somewhere that it was necessary for Mary to be sinless because she was to be the Theotokos or God-bearer and that an ordinary woman conceived with original sin just wouldn't be worthy to carry the Son of God (or God the Son).

Indeed, the Immaculate Conception. We touched on this in the original sin thread or rather I touched on it in an attempt to reason how possibly Jesus would be born without original sin. However, I would be of the belief that sin came to the world by Adam passing on a sinful nature to us, or by making it inherently a part of nature that mankind sins. Again, a very interesting topic.

Thanks for the post though Noel, it's just a teaching of Catholicism I can't get my head around, and although I might seem overly critical, please don't take it that way I just want to know how you reason with the Scriptures to come to said conclusion

Edit: Here's another good Scripture Noel -

Luke 21:36 wrote:

Be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of Man

sorella

Noel; as you will be aware, this is not my way. I prayed with someone a while ago in a hard situation. And he said, " That was beautiful; But you did not go to Mary". Then.. " I am an Irish Catholic but.."

The line between worship and respect is too narrow to risk.

Mary is not God, simply.

So she cannot be a short cut.

It is hard to see the statues in Churches here; Jesus and Mary the same size; and so many wayside shrines to Mary - and so few to Jesus.

As one Irish Monsignor pointed out to us, they even named the Shrine of Knock wrongly as a Marian Shrine. It is Jesus the Lamb of God on the altar; Mary, Joseph and John are in a line at the side gazing at Him.

Blessings this day

kelly1 wrote: »

My 2c...

I personally believe that Mary is far more important that most of us realize and I'm not saying that she is divine or anything of the sort. I believe that Mary does have or can have a part to play in our salvation. But let me clarify what I mean by this.

As a Catholic, I don't believe my salvation is certain because I'm a weak human being and I have the free will to reject God's grace. I know grace helps me do God's will but I am free to be selfish. To put it another way, there is no guarantee that I will persevere to the end and die in a state of grace. Having said that I put my trust in God, that at the end of the day, I will be saved though His mercy.

I believe devotion to Mary isn't necessary for salvation but is a short-cut to advancing spiritually i.e. getting closer to Jesus. Mary shows us the way to Jesus. As any good mother would do, she guides and protects her children. You might have heard of the phrase "To Jesus through Mary". The end-goal is always Jesus. Mary, the saints and our guardian angel are "aids" to helping us grow spiritually.

Therefore I think our chances of being saved are greater if we invoke the intercession of Mary etc. I fully understand that all grace comes from Jesus and that without His death on the cross, no-one is saved.

I also believe that Mary was conceived free of original sin and that she lives a sinless life (as God intended for Adam and Eve). She didn't suffer from the weaknesses that we do. I read somewhere that it was necessary for Mary to be sinless because she was to be the Theotokos or God-bearer and that an ordinary woman conceived with original sin just wouldn't be worthy to carry the Son of God (or God the Son).

philologos

sorella wrote: »

Noel; as you will be aware, this is not my way. I prayed with someone a while ago in a hard situation. And he said, " That was beautiful; But you did not go to Mary". Then.. " I am an Irish Catholic but.."

The line between worship and respect is too narrow to risk.

Mary is not God, simply.

So she cannot be a short cut.

It is hard to see the statues in Churches here; Jesus and Mary the same size; and so many wayside shrines to Mary - and so few to Jesus.

As one Irish Monsignor pointed out to us, they even named the Shrine of Knock wrongly as a Marian Shrine. It is Jesus the Lamb of God on the altar; Mary, Joseph and John are in a line at the side gazing at Him.

Blessings this day

You make a lot of sense. Thanks for posts like these, they really help put some of the differing views within Catholicism into perspective.

sorella

Noel and others will have a very different take on all this and that is fine.

we all and each have different experiences and needs. God is good to us.

The Knock aspect did shake me at the time; I was new in Ireland then and had visited the Shrine. Spent all day there.

My digital camera came up with some really strange lighting effects that were not there in "reality": a great, golden glow on the Lamb ( I went back years later in similar light conditions with the same camera and nothing similar happened)

It was the oddest thing.

And i took that image to the Monsignor for advice . He could not explain the photo, as no one else could, but said that the shrine had been wrongly named. And that ths photo showed this clearly.
See the shrine web site..

http://www.knock-shrine.ie/shrine/

There is a spotlight on the Lamb, but this was a great golden light emanating from it.

And the photo was lost when that computer crashed.

Blessings this day