networking a small office

davelerave

I'm going to 1st fix for an office .6 workstations with internet and phone at each
with an eircom router and an eircom master socket in situ .Should i loop the phone wire into each phone point as normal for the phones.For the internet/network do i run a cat5 back from each workstation to a point beside the router,is there a box for this?is cat 5 ok(i have tons of it)thanks, if theres a link also

JohnnieM

Dont loop it what ever you do...Run individual cat 5 for each phone and pc point and at maybe at a couple of strategic positions run extra cat 5. I personally always do a min of two but every couple of positions I might do 4 .. this would allow for .. pc, phone, second phone, fax, ip phone , network printer . visa terminal ..It goes on and on...

davelerave

ok i've done something similar before.a seperate cat5 to each phone and network socket in the office (12 to 14 cables total),all back to one location close to the router yes? .is there a bare panel i can fit flush or surface ? or should i just bundle them up.the router is a distance from the eircom master socket i presume a cat 5 to this as well?thanks

davelerave

maybe someone can advise me further thanks

FusionNet

No offence to your experience but why are you doing this if your not a 100% familiar with what to do? It may seem really simple to do all this but to do it right costs thousands of euro in Kit?

Can you tell us what tools you have at your dispossal and what your experience/backround is in computers and telco? This will give us an idea of who detailed a response needs to be..

davelerave

No offence taken ive little or no networking experience .6 desks with internet networked and phone each and an eircom master socket and eircom broadband do i run 2 cat 5s to each desk and one bak to the eircom socket .13 cat 5s bundled together? At the where the router is going

java

Seriously mate its worth spending money on getting a data/telco expert in to scope requirements for you. Its difficult to give you an answer when we don't visbility of floor plan, layouts etc. Tackling a job like that with little or no experience is bound to cause you headaches and further questions than can't easily answered on boards. 6 pc's may not sound like a big job, but it is for novice!

rmacm

I agree with FusionNet and java......you really need to scope out the requirements of your customer properly (it can be a gigantic pain in the arse if you don't although I work on a scale bigger than your average home/office network I know what kind of grief you can get if you don't have a full picture of customer requirements).

If you have more information as FusionNet asked for it would be helpful in giving a more detailed answer.

davelerave

rmacm wrote: »

I agree with FusionNet and java......you really need to scope out the requirements of your customer properly (it can be a gigantic pain in the arse if you don't although I work on a scale bigger than your average home/office network I know what kind of grief you can get if you don't have a full picture of customer requirements).

If you have more information as FusionNet asked for it would be helpful in giving a more detailed answer.

no problem i wanted to lay a few cables in my new office ,i won't be doing the final connections. i presume i run 2 cat 5s from each desk back to a common point and a cable from this common point to eircom master socket.a link might be handy that i can look at .thanks

NullZer0

2 CAT5's (no longer than 85m) from each desk back to a central closet (switch - presumably near the router). I'd drop a few extra CAT'5 cables somewhere too.

Its not rocket science and you can't really go wrong.

fade2che

To be honest 2 cat5 only seems to meet current requirements. What if they decide to stick 2 people at one desk briefly? Then you need 4. Also what kind of company is it? If its IT based its likely that more than one connection could be required at some of the points.

Without further info, 2 cat5s meet current requirements, so best to go with min of 3 (maybe 4) cat5s from each point to a central switch to allow for expansion, plus a couple of extra strategic points too.

Good luck with it.

NullZer0

fade2che wrote: »

To be honest 2 cat5 only seems to meet current requirements. What if they decide to stick 2 people at one desk briefly? Then you need 4. Also what kind of company is it? If its IT based its likely that more than one connection could be required at some of the points.

Without further info, 2 cat5s meet current requirements, so best to go with min of 3 (maybe 4) cat5s from each point to a central switch to allow for expansion, plus a couple of extra strategic points too.

Good luck with it.

yes but I am assuming this is his own office?

One would imagine he knows what he wants... its rather confusing because this is usually a simple task as you know.


iRock

FusionNet

Irock,

This is a simple process to you and me and whoever does data cabling but for a newbie it can be a big deal. To be honest this debate is neither here nor there to be honest. Yes most of us would say 4 points per desk and then another couple of random 2 points around the office but we have no idea if he's terminating on a patch panel or not? And for the record the lenghts can be no longer than 90m not 85m..!! But get this and being a nerd I find this very interesting, according to the regs, 90m is your limit at 20 degress celcius, but if the temp goes up to 60degrees you have to reduce your maximum distance to 83m..

Anyways sorry for going off topic. For this install I would puill min of 2 max of 4 to each of your desks back to one central point. Leave plenty of cable at the patch panel end and mark them. I would personally put all the telco and data on the cat5e, let your intaller worry about looping the telco. Though for the sake of 395 euro Id lash in a PBX.

drunkmonkey

Guys I need to do something similar but maybe not on such a large scale...

I've 2 eircom lines coming in (just the bog standard eircom points), I'm using one line for phone & broadband, and one dedicated for visa machine.
This is all in the front...
I need to set up the back office, I only need 3 phones in the back but all 4 phones must be able to transfer to each other and have there own voicemail, if they could all have there own number that would be great but I presume i'd need to rent another 3 lines from eircom which I don't want to do just yet...

What i'm thinking is to just run one rj45 cable from my standard eircom router to the back office (15 Meters) and one phone line out the back as well, from there i'm going to feed the rj45 into a spare router I have and run any network points (3) I need from that.....Not best pratice but I think it'll work?
But how would I go abut setting up the phone system.... I have an old pentium 3 optiplex sitting around could I use that as some kind of internal phone exchange, sorry clueless and i'm doing it myself for myself...

FusionNet

Hi Drunk Monkey

What you really need is an ISDN line with DDI's. This would give you indivual numbers you would assign to each handset. You would also need a Digital PBX with Voicemail. Though this stuff is much cheaper than it used to be it would still cost to do it right.

Ill post more info later Im just a bit caught for time right now. I can give you a rough idea what a proper system would cost if you like, least you'll know the worst case scenario.

drunkmonkey

FusionNet wrote: »

What you really need is an ISDN line with DDI's. This would give you indivual numbers you would assign to each handset. You would also need a Digital PBX with Voicemail. Though this stuff is much cheaper than it used to be it would still cost to do it right.

thanks Fusion,

better call eircom and check how much an isdn line would cost with DDI's, I think i'd also need (limited budget willing)some kind of an IVR....
the eircom package I have has free calls to landlines but I could be making a lot of mobile calls, is there a way of integrating mobile lines, so let's say I could have free vodafone calls for €20pm top up from the fixed handsets..

the more you think about it the more complex it gets:rolleyes:

Ah-Watch

drunkmonkey wrote: »

so let's say I could have free vodafone calls for €20pm top up from the fixed handsets..:rolleyes:

What I have in place is a Wireless Office Plan from Vodafone, with a Jabletron(not certain if thats correct) phone(looks like a house phone but it uses a SIM card) and I use that to ring all mobile phones slashing the bill from eircom. I took a simple number to remember and have that for all mobile calls and then have the landline for local and national calls... Very impressed by it now to be honest... Mightn't be exactly what you want but its a start:L

drunkmonkey

thanks Ah Watch...I have my mobile bill anyway so it would make sense to use my own sim for mobile calls and free calls to landlines from the eircom line...so far so good....

is this the kind of phone...

http://www.jablocom.com/products-gdp-02.php

I still need that IVR and DD's, wonder what fusion will come up with....

Ah-Watch

drunkmonkey wrote: »

thanks Ah Watch...I have my mobile bill anyway so it would make sense to use my own sim for mobile calls and free calls to landlines from the eircom line...so far so good....

is this the kind of phone...

http://www.jablocom.com/products-gdp-02.php

I still need that IVR and DD's, wonder what fusion will come up with....

http://www.jablocom.com/products-gdp-04.php is what we are using. perfect! Thats what we use for mobiles anyway... not sure what fusion will come up with but good luck with it:)

rmacm

FusionNet wrote: »

Hi Drunk Monkey

What you really need is an ISDN line with DDI's. This would give you indivual numbers you would assign to each handset. You would also need a Digital PBX with Voicemail. Though this stuff is much cheaper than it used to be it would still cost to do it right.

Ill post more info later Im just a bit caught for time right now. I can give you a rough idea what a proper system would cost if you like, least you'll know the worst case scenario.

Like FusionNet says an ISDN line with DDI's should meet your requirements. Depending on what you need a BRA or PRA (it's a bad sign when you start using device names from an AXE to name basic/primary rate ISDN lines).

For mobile you might well be better sticking with a mobile provider and availing of one their packages for cheap calls.

FusionNet

I also agree with Rmacm. What I would do in the situation you have now outlined is as follows.

Get a BRI ISDN line, its got two numbers as standard and then order the DDI's. That'll give you another 10 I think. Eircom offer DDI's for free and an ISDN line is cheaper than two analogue lines.

For the mobile calls you have two options. One is get a mobile office mobile and have it as a floating handset around the office or get a mobile gateway and attach it to the analoghue port on your Digital PBX. You will then be able to select a specific line for mobile calls or set up least cost routing so the PBX does it automatically. Remember though that with mobile porting I may have an 087 number but could be with meteor. This call will then not be free and sometimes can be charged at a higher rate depending on the connect deals between vodafone, meteor etc.

Now on the IVR I prsume you mean a call answering system that directs traffic. this can be done in several ways also. The cheap way is to use your voicemail system to direct people to departments, users etc. Our VM does this and also offers call screening. On a bigger scale you would require a dedicated unit as on the VM (voicemail) it can only handle 4 to 8 ports at a time.

Also with a Digital set up, we use Toshiba and are the Authorised Partner down my way, you will have the obvious functions like phones books, caller ID, a large range of phones but these systems are also VOIP capable so you can upgrade in future when that becomes a stable option. For more info check this site out: http://telecoms.toshiba.co.uk/

Ive used a good few systems over the years but find these the best for back up, looks, functions, price and scaleability. The RRP is on the site as well so that might help you work out a budget but as I say I have no problem provideing you guide pricing so at least you know what to expect. Depending on where you are Im sure you will have plenty of installers near you with dozens of options..

On pricing in the past I have at RRP beaten most providers except Eircom because they heavily discount that department.

Hope this helps. Oh by the way I can also advise you on business telephone rates that beat the socks off Eircom!!

davelerave

thanks for the advice.got the basic info i needed .thanks

drunkmonkey

FusionNet wrote: »

I also agree with Rmacm. What I would do in the situation you have now outlined is as follows.

Get a BRI ISDN line, its got two numbers as standard and then order the DDI's. That'll give you another 10 I think. Eircom offer DDI's for free and an ISDN line is cheaper than two analogue lines.

On pricing in the past I have at RRP beaten most providers except Eircom because they heavily discount that department.

Hope this helps. Oh by the way I can also advise you on business telephone rates that beat the socks off Eircom!!

Thanks Fusion, calling eircom about the BRI ISDN tomorrow...

Cheated running the RJ45, use a pair of home plug adapters instead..:)

FusionNet

Grrr Home Plug Adaptors my nemisis.....

mrgaa1

you can use one CAT5 cable to service network and phone. For the network you use 2 pairs and for the phone you use one pair - the phone pair is the blue and blue/white. In this one cable does both. You can buy a crimping tool and make your own connections - just ensure that you cut the wires evenly and that they are all pushed fully inside the RJ45 plug. Personally, I'd run the cables back to a central hub for the network and run another cable for phone. You should find that some electricians will have mountains of this cable available - don't buy the drop leads in shops as they charge a fortune for something so cheap. There are loads of websites out there on how to wire your own office, home etc... no point paying some outfit to drop in some cables for you and charge a fortune. Do some research and if you can do it yourself. If you are keeping your office connected to the internet permanently ensure that your PC's have up to date virus protection and check your broadband provider about firewall protection - either with them or in your own broadband router.

davelerave

i want to run some cat5s back to a central location in my house close to the main eircom socket( for the house) .should i run 2 cat 5s back for network and phone or should i do the phones in the normal way with 3-pair cable in aradial circuit .also i want to link the house network to the office network .i assume a cat5e will do for this. it's about 40 meters way?thanks

FusionNet

mrgaa1 wrote: »

you can use one CAT5 cable to service network and phone. For the network you use 2 pairs and for the phone you use one pair - the phone pair is the blue and blue/white. In this one cable does both. You can buy a crimping tool and make your own connections - just ensure that you cut the wires evenly and that they are all pushed fully inside the RJ45 plug. Personally, I'd run the cables back to a central hub for the network and run another cable for phone. You should find that some electricians will have mountains of this cable available - don't buy the drop leads in shops as they charge a fortune for something so cheap. There are loads of websites out there on how to wire your own office, home etc... no point paying some outfit to drop in some cables for you and charge a fortune. Do some research and if you can do it yourself. If you are keeping your office connected to the internet permanently ensure that your PC's have up to date virus protection and check your broadband provider about firewall protection - either with them or in your own broadband router.

The reason some "outfit" in other words us professionals who do it for a living charge what we do is for the following reasons:

1)We are trained (which costs thousands)
2)We are trained by a specific vendor so we can guarantee the product for 25 yrs
3)We have public and product liability (mine is up to 6.5million)
4)We have the right tools for the job and have safe pass etc done
5)We certify the network which lets you know that the network will perform to the spec you ordered, if it doesnt we need to replace it or fix it till it does at our expence
6)Some of the tools we need to do this job cost up to 10grand a piece
7)We are liable to be sued for millions if we do not certify the network as if the network fails and your company loses money, if you find out the cable was the fault then its our fault.
8)We do it right..

I dont mean to be a crank about this but giving advice to wire a network and phone by splitting the cables is bull. You are in one point correct but just to let you know in case your not aware, some phone especially digital or pbx phones can use up to 4 pairs, networks cat6 for example use 4 pairs. I am aware people are trying to save money in these times but for small networks companies like ours dont charge a lot, we charge a fair price for a fair job!

I do agree with you on one point and that is to buy your patch leads on a website. I obviously know what they cost and I put a modest mark up on them for stocking etc but I've seen patch cables costing 10 euro that should cost no more than 2 euro!!

By the way, I have been called to many jobs to do it right after someone in the office gave it a go. It is not always as easy as it seems, for example have you ever hit a water main whuile drilling a hole? Expensive mistake if you do it without insurance!!!

java

I agree fully with Eoghan. Its well worth paying a professional to do a professional job. Cleaning up someone elses mess can cost lots of money in the long term. I know from experience. Bad cabling can lead to all sorts of problems, latency is one of them. If you rely on broadband for your business then not having a professional cabling job in place is a big gamble.

davelerave

FusionNet wrote: »

The reason some "outfit" in other words us professionals who do it for a living charge what we do is for the following reasons:

1)We are trained (which costs thousands)
2)We are trained by a specific vendor so we can guarantee the product for 25 yrs
3)We have public and product liability (mine is up to 6.5million)
4)We have the right tools for the job and have safe pass etc done
5)We certify the network which lets you know that the network will perform to the spec you ordered, if it doesnt we need to replace it or fix it till it does at our expence
6)Some of the tools we need to do this job cost up to 10grand a piece
7)We are liable to be sued for millions if we do not certify the network as if the network fails and your company loses money, if you find out the cable was the fault then its our fault.
8)We do it right..

I dont mean to be a crank about this but giving advice to wire a network and phone by splitting the cables is bull. You are in one point correct but just to let you know in case your not aware, some phone especially digital or pbx phones can use up to 4 pairs, networks cat6 for example use 4 pairs. I am aware people are trying to save money in these times but for small networks companies like ours dont charge a lot, we charge a fair price for a fair job!

I do agree with you on one point and that is to buy your patch leads on a website. I obviously know what they cost and I put a modest mark up on them for stocking etc but I've seen patch cables costing 10 euro that should cost no more than 2 euro!!

By the way, I have been called to many jobs to do it right after someone in the office gave it a go. It is not always as easy as it seems, for example have you ever hit a water main whuile drilling a hole? Expensive mistake if you do it without insurance!!!

maybe you could help with my question above regarding the merits of running cat 5s for domestic phone points back to a panel (the same way as the network points) or the usual 3-pair phone wire system wired radially .mucho gracias.

FusionNet

Sorry Dave,

I missed that in my giving out session!! I'd run a seperate cable for network and phone. If for no other reason but flexability. I always tend to run a minimum of 50% extra cabling as it always says my customer in the long run. Though thinking about it here now, Im am in theory shooting myself in the foot as I drop revenue but I do have fantastically happy clients!!

40m is no bother dave..

davelerave

FusionNet wrote: »

Sorry Dave,

I missed that in my giving out session!! I'd run a seperate cable for network and phone. If for no other reason but flexability. I always tend to run a minimum of 50% extra cabling as it always says my customer in the long run. Though thinking about it here now, Im am in theory shooting myself in the foot as I drop revenue but I do have fantastically happy clients!!

40m is no bother dave..

ok thats what i thought .i'd be better to do the house phones in seperate cat5s
the same as the network points for flexibility .link the house and office networks with a cat5( they have their own phone lines )