networking a small office

Gadgetman496

In a school we have a spare room with one (working) RJ45 socket for a Broadband connection which is cabled 30m Approx back to an eircom router.

We were hoping to use the room at some stage as a computer room with maybe 10 - 12 PC's.

I was advised that we could install a 16 port switch in that room connected to the existing RJ45 cable & use it to feed the 10 - 12 PC's.

Does that sound right?

So we would need to install a switch and run cable to three rows of benches each of which would have 4 PC's. The room itself is about 25' X 30'.

There would be no requirements for phones.

Can anyone give a really rough estimate on what we should expect something like that to cost if we got a professional to install it?

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FusionNet

gadgetman496 wrote: »

In a school we have a spare room with one (working) RJ45 socket for a Broadband connection which is cabled 30m Approx back to an eircom router.

We were hoping to use the room at some stage as a computer room with maybe 10 - 12 PC's.

I was advised that we could install a 16 port switch in that room connected to the existing RJ45 cable & use it to feed the 10 - 12 PC's.

Does that sound right?

So we would need to install a switch and run cable to three rows of benches each of which would have 4 PC's. The room itself is about 25' X 30'.

There would be no requirements for phones.

Can anyone give a really rough estimate on what we should expect something like that to cost if we got a professional to install it?

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To do it right would take the following and this would be using the best Cat5e Modules on the market and the best small comms cabinet. Including a switch and testing and certifying equipment you would be looking at around 600 before install. Install could be easy or hard depending on room but for the top of the range cable and hardware 600+ should see you. I always believe in quoting for the best equipment as that way the price can only go down if you want. I use datarack cabinets, Panduit networking and transend for basic switches.

does that help?

mrgaa1

gadgetman496 wrote: »

In a school we have a spare room with one (working) RJ45 socket for a Broadband connection which is cabled 30m Approx back to an eircom router.

We were hoping to use the room at some stage as a computer room with maybe 10 - 12 PC's.

I was advised that we could install a 16 port switch in that room connected to the existing RJ45 cable & use it to feed the 10 - 12 PC's.

Does that sound right?

So we would need to install a switch and run cable to three rows of benches each of which would have 4 PC's. The room itself is about 25' X 30'.

There would be no requirements for phones.

Can anyone give a really rough estimate on what we should expect something like that to cost if we got a professional to install it?

-

You are indeed correct. You don't actually need a switch unless you want to manage each port. A 16-port hub is more than ample - get them on EBAY for 30-40 euro. Then you can make and run your own cables to each PC directly. The hub can sit on a desk or something like that. No need for racks, cabinets etc... as they are a waste of time for something so small. Ensure you get two hubs in case the first one breaks down. Cables - just google on how to make cables and buy the tester and tools to make your cables. It should take a few hours to do it all.

Gadgetman496

FusionNet wrote: »

To do it right would take the following and this would be using the best Cat5e Modules on the market and the best small comms cabinet. Including a switch and testing and certifying equipment you would be looking at around 600 before install. Install could be easy or hard depending on room but for the top of the range cable and hardware 600+ should see you. I always believe in quoting for the best equipment as that way the price can only go down if you want. I use datarack cabinets, Panduit networking and transend for basic switches.

does that help?

Thanks for the reply FusionNet.

When you say Cat5e Modules are you just referring to all the equipment or is a module a piece of equipment itself?

So a ball park figure of €600 would be for all the equipment only right?

Because there is one Broadband connection already in the room there would be no need to cable to the room? so all the work would be in the room itself.

We would need to run 3 sets of 4 (12 total) Cat5e cables of about 25' each (the run would be about 16' so I'm allowing slack to reach the PC plus one run from the existing RJ45 socket to the switch? which is about 20' so we would need about 320' of cable. I'm thinking a direct run from the switch to the PC's to eliminate the cost of 12 RJ45 sockets & labour, would that be OK?

Then we would also need the plugs for each end of the cables (26 plugs) and of course the switch too which would go on the wall or into a cabinet as you suggested (might be safer). We would need some trunking or what ever you call it to carry the wire too.

Would that Info be enough for you to really roughly estimate the labour cost?

I know it would be a real rough guess but it's just that trying to get a budget might be easier if we had an idea at least as to the overall cost.

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Gadgetman496

mrgaa1 wrote: »

You are indeed correct. You don't actually need a switch unless you want to manage each port. A 16-port hub is more than ample - get them on EBAY for 30-40 euro. Then you can make and run your own cables to each PC directly. The hub can sit on a desk or something like that. No need for racks, cabinets etc... as they are a waste of time for something so small. Ensure you get two hubs in case the first one breaks down. Cables - just google on how to make cables and buy the tester and tools to make your cables. It should take a few hours to do it all.

Thanks for the reply too mrgaa1.

Can you tell me what the difference is between a switch & a hub? Sorry for being pure stupid but what do each of them do & what is the advantages & drawbacks of one over the other?

You make this all sound sort of straight forward, I'd nearly have a go myself but I'd more than likely end up networked to Air Force One or the PC's wold go into melt down

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mrgaa1

A hub is typically the least expensive, least intelligent, and least complicated of the three. Its job is very simple: anything that comes in one port is sent out to the others. That's it. Every computer connected to the hub "sees" everything that every other computer on the hub sees. The hub itself is blissfully ignorant of the data being transmitted. For years, simple hubs have been quick and easy ways to connect computers in small networks.
A switch does essentially what a hub does but more efficiently. By paying attention to the traffic that comes across it, it can "learn" where particular addresses are. For example, if it sees traffic from machine A coming in on port 2, it now knows that machine A is connected to that port and that traffic to machine A needs to only be sent to that port and not any of the others. The net result of using a switch over a hub is that most of the network traffic only goes where it needs to rather than to every port. On busy networks this can make the network significantly faster.

I would say a hub is more or less what you need and they are cheaper. Ensure the hub is 100m/bit to each port.
There are plenty of articles on the NET - http://www.pcnineoneone.com/howto/hmnetwk1.html is one. You want to make yours as simple as possible.

There are other items to think off - where does the new PC's get their IP address's from ? and how will they route to the internet ? The broadband connection to this room comes from what sort of device ? If its from an eircom router or such device you will have to ensure that the connection into the hub is put into the CROSS'd port or use a crossover cable.

Gadgetman496

Yes, the connection in the room is coming from an eircom router.

So for a hub the cable would need to be crossed?

If a switch is used would the cable be a standard one?

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accensi0n

gadgetman496 wrote: »

Yes, the connection in the room is coming from an eircom router.

So for a hub the cable would need to be crossed?

If a switch is used would the cable be a standard one?

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Definately get a switch and not a hub.

And yes, you would connect a switch port to a router interface using a standard patch/straight-through cable.

Gadgetman496

accensi0n wrote: »

Definately get a switch and not a hub.

And yes, you would connect a switch port to a router interface using a standard patch/straight-through cable.

Cheers accensi0n.

Not that I know much about this but from what you & mrgaa1 are saying, the switch is more intelligent & if the price difference is not too drastic I'd lean towards the switch too. If I understand correctly the switch seems to take care of all the negotiation? (if that's a right term) so it would make for less confusion in the network or at least be faster as pointed out.

Can I take it too that there would be nothing more difficult in physically connecting the switch as opposed to the hub? (aside from the extra bit of cost I mean)


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rmacm

mrgaa1 wrote: »

You are indeed correct. You don't actually need a switch unless you want to manage each port. A 16-port hub is more than ample - get them on EBAY for 30-40 euro.

TBH hubs are obsolete why bother with them when hubs provide you with so much better performance for a cheap enough price.

accensi0n wrote: »

Definately get a switch and not a hub.

And yes, you would connect a switch port to a router interface using a standard patch/straight-through cable.

Agreed most definitely buy a switch and not a hub. You use a straight through cable to connect the router to the switch.

Alun

Yeah, that info mrgaa1 gave was seriously out of date. You'd be hard pushed to actually buy a hub these days, even if you wanted to. The basic hardware (chipsets) needed to build simple, unmamaged switches has come down so much in price that you can get a 16-port switch for no money at all. See http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=319250 for example. Also practically all switches do what is called auto mdix switching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-MDIX which means it doesn't matter whether you use a straight through or crossover cable.

FusionNet

Ok, Im not sure if MRGAA1 is in the business or not but my sdvice comes from doing this for a living. I dont make my own cables, I dont crimp cat5 leads and I certainly dont use hubs. I havent used a hub since 1999 and to be honest not one of my trade suppliers stock hubs anymore.

I install cabinets as it stops people who dont know what there doing messing with the equipment. I use dataracks busicause of health and safety reasons and becuse they are the best. I use panduit cause they are the best and I use Transend becuase for the money you cant beat them.

The estimate I gave you was for the following:

24 Cat5e modules
6 x faceplates
6 x MK Backboxes
1 x 24 port blank panel
1 x 6U dataracks cabinet
1 x Transend 10/100 switch
24 x Pre tested certified patch cords
1 x Fluke Certification

I personally refuse the "slap it on the counter and make some leads yourself jobs" as thats not what Im about. We install and certify data networks for all types of businesses but its done right and we give the back up after.

Im all for people expanding their mind and doing this stuff themselves but advise that MRGAA1 is totally incorrect. If anyone likes I can email them pics of premises we have been on where other people attempted to install systems and then we went in and did it right, if it wasnt so serious and expensive it'd be funny..

This would be installed in as a star network, in other words all cables run from each group of desks withing Conduit back to a locked cabinet where your network would be terminated and connected to your switch. It is not the cheapest way by far but it is the industry standard way to do it.

On the module the following is a link to what a module is:
http://www.panduit.com/Products/ProductOverviews/ProductSearch/index.htm?Ne=1&lastNodeId=ss_prod_coppersolutions&sid=11F4AB79A1A5&N=5000001%201874+3000137&recName=CJ5E88TGAW

You terminate the cable in a module then you snap it into a patch panel frame in your cabinet and on the other end at the desk it snaps into a faceplate which then secured on a plastic back box.

If you need more info please let me know.

Thanks

Gadgetman496

Well then it's Defo going to be a switch.

So, FusionNet, do you terminate the module to the Cat5e cable & then use ready made leads to connect from the PC to the module? (which is in like a RJ45 socket with back-plate) and the other end is in the cabinet snapped onto a faceplate which you then use another patch lead to go from that to the switch?)

I'd love to see some of the pictures you mentioned so if you can will you wing them onto gadgetman496@gmail.com.

Thanks.

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FusionNet

Hi Gadgetman,

Yas Ill mail you a selection of pictures of how not to do it and how actually do it. Then Ill send you a PDF giving you a drawing of a typical network and Ill also make up a demo network scenario and take pics of that too. Hope that will help. I can imagine if you havent seen this stuff before some of what we are talking about must be gobbledgook!!!

It'll be tommorow before I can put all that together for you I hope thats ok?

If you have or anyone else has any other question please fire away, advise is free...

Gadgetman496

FusionNet wrote: »

Hi Gadgetman,

Yas Ill mail you a selection of pictures of how not to do it and how actually do it. Then Ill send you a PDF giving you a drawing of a typical network and Ill also make up a demo network scenario and take pics of that too. Hope that will help. I can imagine if you havent seen this stuff before some of what we are talking about must be gobbledgook!!!

It'll be tommorow before I can put all that together for you I hope thats ok?

If you have or anyone else has any other question please fire away, advise is free...

That would be fantastic FusionNet & I really appreciate you efforts to help me understand this better. You all have been extremely helpful so thanks to everyone who contributed their advice & thoughts so far

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mrgaa1

just a bit of background - worked in IT for over 15 years. Started of supporting PC's, Windows 3.1 etc... and worked my way through to developing networks, rolling out email systems, finance systems, expanding networks across Europe and then into the rest of the world: was at the start of the roll-out of broadband in UK and ended up being head-hunted for many years to sort out networking and system issues in FTSE 100 companies. So I think my experience should be OK.
I was just pointing out that instead of spending 100's & 100's of valuable euros on something it can be easier to do it yourself. Its very easy to make a cable - in fact my 10yr-old daughter makes them for fun and they are correct every time.
BTW go to EBAY.IE and type in 16-port HUB. Unless EBAY is in a timewarp hubs are available.
There is nothing wrong with the spec that has been given and given the choice I too would select a switch - if money is tight a simple HUB suffices. Its all down to budget. Small budget small job - bigger budget get lots of quotes and learn from it. Its surprisingly easy to put a cable together and to learn how a network is put together. In all cases the simpler the better - easier to maintain, troubleshoot and expand.

FusionNet

mrgaa1

It is also very easy to wash your car, a bucket, some water and a sponge that doesnt stop there being 20 car washes in a town. Firstly ebay sells a lot of rubbish so that argument is silly. If you were in the IT game then you would have had communications with suppliers? I can not buy a hub if I wanted to. the ones on ebay are old stock that never sold years ago. Ill tell you a quick story about ebay everyone.

A client of mine got his son to order a NIC on ebay, it was a branded realtek 10/100 network card. He bought it for 2.50 euro and 2.50 euro to post it. He spent 5 hours trying to get it to work, he messed up the network and called me to see if I could sort it.

I called in, within an hour re-did all the IP's on the network, replaced his NIC with one of my 20 euro Intel ones, network up and working faster than ever. Not every bit of IT equipment on ebay is good quality.

When it comes to buying hardware either buy local or off a site that will offer swap outs for faulty gear.

I dont disagree with you about making cables, Im sure your daughter would put many network engineers to same, I just personally have a policy in my business that noone makes a cable ever. I supply only certified patch cables and certified networks. And just so people are aware, we do small jobs as well and try our best to look after people. We're not all out to get people. My hourly rates have not increased in 6 years, I think thats fair..

On your point about simplicity, I think you'd agree that the network I suggested would be the simplest to maintain, it is only in millions of offices around the world. And as I have said before I encourage anyone to try something, but like a mechanic, I can do a lot of repairs on my car but certain things I just hand over so its done right.

JohnnieM

Well said ...