Cowen tells us to shut up

Macha

Did anyone else hear Cowen saying that criticism of the government's handling could damage the Irish economy and advising the media and political leaders to desist from any negative comments?

Am I insane or is this censorship?

mike65

The words of a looser.

BroomBurner

Right up there with Bertie's suicide comments.

x in the city

Cowen is the ugliest mofo of a leader in the world, who would listen to him?

D.S.

Relax lads. He's not saying you don't have a right to say what you want. He's just pointing out (and rightly) that the amount of illinformed dribble that we are seeing in the press and generally spoken about is causing a crisis in confidence.

Personally, I think the media are making this whole thing an awful lot worse. We know they need to sell papers but all the papers are accountable for reporting sensationalising and misleading the public to some degree.

Things are dire, no doubt about it. But journalists, with no bank ground in banking, are attempting the joining the dots, and have on more than one occasion got it wrong or not painted the whole picture.

International confidence in Irish banks is paramount to kickstart our economy again and Cowen is simply stressing.

I'm not pro Cowen by the way - just think the man has a point.

Macha

So we should only listen to the self-designated "experts"?

This really is as far as you can get from Obama's comments on needing good ideas to get out of the financial crisis, wherever they came from, and how it wasn't an intellectual exercise.

I think a comment like this from the leader of a country smacks of desperation and does more to lower confidence than any attempt by the opposition to point out the all-too-common flaws in this government's flailing attempts to deal with the economic crisis.

This misconception that we "talked ourselves into a recession" totally ignores the very real causes for the mess we're in. And a huge one was people talking up the markets! Have we learned nothing?

tbaymusicman

its true what he says!!!!if you got diarrhea some of it will stick to the sides haha in other more appropriate words if all this **** thats been said about him gets out to potential investors there not going to want to invest now are they hence it effects the economy

bmaxi

I'd say hold on to your hats, this is the same Brian Cowen who said, there is no danger of recession but if people keep talking about it, it will happen.

Grudaire

bmaxi wrote: »

I'd say hold on to your hats, this is the same Brian Cowen who said, there is no danger of recession but if people keep talking about it, it will happen.

Needless to say they did keep talking about it, and look at what happened. The man had a point!

Liam Byrne

He's just pointing out (and rightly) that the amount of illinformed dribble that we are seeing in the press and generally spoken about is causing a crisis in confidence

Some of the ill-informed dribble was a quote from Manseragh that Cowen himself later corrected.

Just goes to show how organised FF are......

nesf

D.S. wrote: »

Things are dire, no doubt about it. But journalists, with no bank ground in banking, are attempting the joining the dots, and have on more than one occasion got it wrong or not painted the whole picture.

Exactly, and the problem is the public can a lot of the time take it on good faith that the author of a newspaper piece knows what they are talking about.

nesf

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Some of the ill-informed dribble was a quote from Manseragh that Cowen himself later corrected.

Just goes to show how organised FF are......

Believe me, if you've any formal training in Economics, specifically in banking/international finance it's as painful to listed to the FF members speak as it is the rest of the Dáil and the press a lot of the time.

It's a bit like having studied Physics in college and watching badly researched Sci Fi on television.

Macha

nesf wrote: »

Exactly, and the problem is the public can a lot of the time take it on good faith that the author of a newspaper piece knows what they are talking about.

It would help if FF had given us some proof that they know what they're talking about. I guess a lot of people end up relying on the media because they don't trust the government.

old boy

was he not the guy on telly who was telling us how he prudently managed the economy during the (good) times.

nesf

taconnol wrote: »

It would help if FF had given us some proof that they know what they're talking about. I guess a lot of people end up relying on the media because they don't trust the government.

Well if Malcolm Kelly is correct about the Department of Finance and the Central Bank not wanting the guarantee to extend to Anglo then FF have really been ****ing around (i.e. ignoring the people who would have a far better idea than an elected politician of what not to do).


Micheál Martin last night on Q&A did not at any point come across like he knew what he was talking about, depressingly neither did Eamon Gilmore. The only two people who struck me as some way competent were the Economist and the Tax Lawyer!

Svalbard

Perhaps Cowen, like me, is sick to the back teeth of all the negativity in the country at the moment. Stocks and shares will rise and fall but the Irish will always love a good moan. Its not about ignoring reality. A positive, can-do outlook is a good start at getting this country back on track and a better way to live life in general.

BTE72

Brian Cowen clearly has no idea what to do next other than try to squeeze more taxes and cut public services from the common men and women to pay for the mistakes of himself his government , his banking and high end business buddies aka property developers.

An expert, a journalist or even a Leaving cert student could have told you for the last 6-7 years the rate of property prices were rising too sharply and the sheer blatent ignorance from Lenders added with the greed of the Department of Finance watching all that lovely stamp duty rolling in.

We should be calling for the heads of Cowen & co , Never mind keeping quiet.... No Leader of the people is he is just like a little lost puppy in this shambles of an economy.

He still sits back while money is steadily streaming out of our retail economy to the uk and beyond. People will now wisely shop around for bargains because it's the sensible thing to do until products and services fall in line with the uk.. And if that means cutting the rate of VAT back then do it. This may only be a little finger in a huge dam but it's a small start.


grrrrr.....

stepbar

D.S. wrote: »

Relax lads. He's not saying you don't have a right to say what you want. He's just pointing out (and rightly) that the amount of illinformed dribble that we are seeing in the press and generally spoken about is causing a crisis in confidence.

Personally, I think the media are making this whole thing an awful lot worse. We know they need to sell papers but all the papers are accountable for reporting sensationalising and misleading the public to some degree.

Things are dire, no doubt about it. But journalists, with no bank ground in banking, are attempting the joining the dots, and have on more than one occasion got it wrong or not painted the whole picture.

International confidence in Irish banks is paramount to kickstart our economy again and Cowen is simply stressing.

I'm not pro Cowen by the way - just think the man has a point.

+ 1

taconnol wrote: »

So we should only listen to the self-designated "experts"?

This really is as far as you can get from Obama's comments on needing good ideas to get out of the financial crisis, wherever they came from, and how it wasn't an intellectual exercise.

I think a comment like this from the leader of a country smacks of desperation and does more to lower confidence than any attempt by the opposition to point out the all-too-common flaws in this government's flailing attempts to deal with the economic crisis.

This misconception that we "talked ourselves into a recession" totally ignores the very real causes for the mess we're in. And a huge one was people talking up the markets! Have we learned nothing?

Maybe he's telling people to stop basing their opinions on the crap in the Mirror and a bit more from the Sunday Business Post...

Svalbard wrote: »

Perhaps Cowen, like me, is sick to the back teeth of all the negativity in the country at the moment. Stocks and shares will rise and fall but the Irish will always love a good moan. Its not about ignoring reality. A positive, can-do outlook is a good start at getting this country back on track and a better way to live life in general.

A good moan and someone else to blame.

Grudaire

Svalbard wrote: »

Perhaps Cowen, like me, is sick to the back teeth of all the negativity in the country at the moment. Stocks and shares will rise and fall but the Irish will always love a good moan. Its not about ignoring reality. A positive, can-do outlook is a good start at getting this country back on track and a better way to live life in general.

Did anyone see the article in the times by the American Ambassador leaving? He had a point that there is a general assumption of inadequacy in the government, and that a government can acchieve more with support from the people

To answer the question a polite open request to stop downtalking everything is not censorship. If the Times runs a story about how the government was putting pressure on them to stop talking about Anglo, then come back and we can talk censorship!

Mr Ed

Cliste wrote: »

Needless to say they did keep talking about it, and look at what happened. The man had a point!

I think we were heading into recession long before we were talking about it

nesf

Mr Ed wrote: »

I think we were heading into recession long before we were talking about it

You can't really untangle sentiment here, it's an integral part of the market and of what creates and causes booms, busts and recessions et al. There is some sense in saying that a country can talk itself into an even worse recession than would otherwise happen because the effect sentiment can have on aggregate demand etc.

Grudaire

Mr Ed wrote: »

I think we were heading into recession long before we were talking about it

Hey quick, get this man a sense of humour, quick I'm dying out here;)

Ah I agree, but to be fair it's the people who voted him them in (again), so I mean someone must be happy with them. (Note I didn't get to vote last time:()

gurramok

nesf wrote: »

You can't really untangle sentiment here, it's an integral part of the market and of what creates and causes booms, busts and recessions et al. There is some sense in saying that a country can talk itself into an even worse recession than would otherwise happen because the effect sentiment can have on aggregate demand etc.

Just to point out, that demand cannot be expected to flow when that demand is up to their eyeballs in debt
Private sector debt at €400bn, the highest in the EU and 80% of it mortgage related.
Along with mismanagement of the economy, one cannot expect people to spend money they do not have and where a large proportion of that workforce is in unsustainable employment.

I'd agree that the media do whip up some stuff in good times and bad where sentiment ruled.
Its a pity they were not screaming from the rooftops pre 2006 to educate the public and the ear of the politicians where all this bubble would lead to and that is tears.

nesf

nesf wrote: »

There is some sense in saying that a country can talk itself into an even worse recession than would otherwise happen because the effect sentiment can have on aggregate demand etc.

I'll expand this into an example for people because I feel it might be worthwhile to work through some of the logic that underlies this.

Say you have a bunch of lay offs. People see these lay offs and they make them nervous and they start to spend less and save more in case they get laid off too. This reduces what economists would call aggregate demand, there is less demand for goods because people are buying fewer things. This reduction in aggregate demand impacts on companies within the economy which causes jobs to be put at risk because companies might not be able to pay everyone if they aren't selling enough. This can create more lay offs which takes us back to the start again.


This is (for those who care) a simplistic Keynesian example, which was very much evident in the Great Depression in the 1930s. There is a similar problem with "company sentiment" where companies because they fear a reduction in aggregate demand start laying people off which can become a self-fulfilling prophesy as above.

Macha

stepbar wrote: »

Maybe he's telling people to stop basing their opinions on the crap in the Mirror and a bit more from the Sunday Business Post...

Well then he should say it in a manner that isn't so reminiscent of Soviet Russia. I accept that there is a lot of paranoia slopping around but I don't think he's addressing the problem in the right way.

He has also, apparently sent letters to Gilmore & Kenny telling them to keep quiet as well. I don't like the arrogance of a man who thinks he has all the solutions.

BTE72

Cliste wrote: »

Hey quick, get this man a sense of humour, quick I'm dying out here;)

Ah I agree, but to be fair it's the people who voted him them in (again), so I mean someone must be happy with them. (Note I didn't get to vote last time:()

---

Erm .... What was the alternative?

There is a deep set corruption within the government and it would have been all the same if the fine gael had gained power.

Cosy capitalism and perverted politics .... Tribunals tribunals tribunals and so the story goes on.

nesf

gurramok wrote: »

Just to point out, that demand cannot be expected to flow when that demand is up to their eyeballs in debt
Private sector debt at €400bn, the highest in the EU and 80% of it mortgage related.
Along with mismanagement of the economy, one cannot expect people to spend money they do not have and where a large proportion of that workforce is in unsustainable employment.

Agreed and this is actually getting into the meat of the issue regarding where aggregate demand should be given that credit has dried up (i.e. in the sense that where aggregate demand would have been if there wasn't abundant cheap credit in the economy). It's not going to return to 2006/2007 levels any time soon and we really need to adjust the budget to this reality.

Grudaire

gurramok wrote: »

Just to point out, that demand cannot be expected to flow when that demand is up to their eyeballs in debt
Private sector debt at €400bn, the highest in the EU and 80% of it mortgage related.
Along with mismanagement of the economy, one cannot expect people to spend money they do not have and where a large proportion of that workforce is in unsustainable employment.

I agree that at this stage we aren't getting back to where we were, we can work from where we are now though.

Just to highlight one part of that. Private Sector Debt is 400bn. My point would be that the Private sector is truely the root of the problems, and the government has failed to adequately monitor them some might say. However how can they, last week weren't the IFA arguing against stronger monitoring of the Pigs. I mean come on the state ends up cleaning up after their f'n mess, then they have the cheek to suggest that they are doing fine!?

Love your point about the press aswell!:)

Grudaire

BTE72 wrote: »

Erm .... What was the alternative?

There is a deep set corruption within the government and it would have been all the same if the fine gael had gained power.

Cosy capitalism and perverted politics .... Tribunals tribunals tribunals and so the story goes on.

I haven't seen your election manifesto... (maybe I have, I may be making gross assumptions here!) If there's no viable alternative, make one (hell I might help if you make more sense then the rest of em!)

BlaasForRafa

Svalbard wrote: »

Perhaps Cowen, like me, is sick to the back teeth of all the negativity in the country at the moment. Stocks and shares will rise and fall but the Irish will always love a good moan. Its not about ignoring reality. A positive, can-do outlook is a good start at getting this country back on track and a better way to live life in general.

Thats the kind of "ah sure it'll be alright" type attitude thats gotten this economy into the state its in now.

Under FF and Cowens watch (and I did vote for them in 2002 so I don't have a set political "side") they allowed public expenditure to run out of control. now that exchequer returns have collapsed we have a huge budget deficit (estimated at 12.5 billion but could go higher) which will mostly have to be paid by increased borrowing....just at the wrong time when lending is at its tightest.

Income tax returns have fallen, capital gains, vat, stamp duty, corporation tax ...have all fallen through the floor and the money to pay public "servants", hospitals, education and other services has to be found somewhere. Oh and the increased dole queue that was 4.5% at the start of 2008 and was 8% at the end of 2008 (the highest increase ever) is estimated to go up to 12% by the end of the year.

The economy is going to be hit by negative growth this year and quite possibly deflation. Should we just ignore this and blithely saunter on without a care? Ireland got rich for a short while and the country went a bit mad, now the mistakes that the government made in the last 7 or 8 years are coming home to roost.

I don't know if you were around in the 80's but I was growing up then and this country was an utterly miserable place. I don't want the country to go back to that type of era but I have absolutely no confidence that biffo Cowen or Lenihan has a clue of how to avoid it. This seems to be a disaster prone government...theres no guarantee that FG or Labour could do any better but I don't see how they could possibly do worse.

nesf

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I don't know if you were around in the 80's but I was growing up then and this country was an utterly miserable place. I don't want the country to go back to that type of era but I have absolutely no confidence that biffo Cowen or Lenihan has a clue of how to avoid it. This seems to be a disaster prone government...theres no guarantee that FG or Labour could do any better but I don't see how they could possibly do worse.

Well the fact that they haven't run up huge public debt over the past decade makes a return to 80s style misery less likely at least. Though McCreevy's expansion of public spending was real bad thing to do and to an extent Cowen later inherited these levels of public spending which the public now expected since they had gotten used to it! That's where the real **** ups were made, early on in the boom.