WIT Protest against Fees

dlofnep

Jack burton wrote: »

Well in my opinion it is bad but then again it will stop people doing F***k all in college, i work a lot and still go to my lectures and it makes me sick to see these F&£"$"%&$ wasters in my class, " ah i wasnt in yesterday, too hungover " charge them 5000 and see how hungover they are then.

And how do you introduce such a system? Means test people based on alcohol abuse?

alpha2zulu

For a good economy, education must be free!

But to those whose parents are on very large salarys there is no reason why they cant contribute more. To say that otherwise they wont go to college is rediculous. You have to realise that the country has one of the most severe budget deficits in Europe currently, the size of the shortfall is no joke.

There are much more worthy causes than paying for very well off students to go to college, off the top of my head the cervical cancer jabs and the state of hospital hygeine come to mind.

As for the town being packed already on a Saturday, if last Saturday was anything to go, a few more bodies around on a Saturday afternoon is exactly what the place needs.

shanemul

Don't think anyone has mentioned this but it is one person and one person only who wants to bring back fees and its the Idiot of a Minister Bratt O'Keeffe. The entire Dept of Education along with every IT in the country is against the introduction they have said that the increase in Registration is enough. Students are being made scape goat for a Goverment that has squandered the countries money and are now trying to recoup some of it.

Jack burton

dlofnep wrote: »

And how do you introduce such a system? Means test people based on alcohol abuse?

well i'd only leave people who are actully going to work and put in an effort in college, i go drinking too but i still come in in the mornings

dlofnep

And how do you introduce such a system?

BlaasForRafa

dlofnep wrote: »

I've been working since I was 14, paying taxes since I was 18 - started college as a mature student.. I'm pretty sure I've paid my own taxes. And the taxes that we will pay later on in life will more than cover our costs as a single person. You can keep your taxes tbh. I'm sure you've never benefitted from the collective country's taxes before... Roads, public services, transport, etc... right?

If you actually took the time to look you'd seem my reply was to twkm05 and his bad mannered statements not you.

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

And how do you introduce such a system?

A roll call - like it bloody well should be. He has a point. There are far to many people who get free education that don't bother turning up for a lot of their classes because they were to hungover or whatever. Attedance sheets should be taken and those who cant be arsed turning up should be told to get lost.

I'm against the introduction of fees to students who are struggling but there are plenty of students who are well able to afford it and this is where it should hit. I'm unsure about means testing the family, unless the student lives at home. However, the government have failed to tax those at the moment properly and are hitting the poorer population and ignoring the richer population. I agree with Shane Kelly, president of USI, when he says he doesnt believe that it will be means tested. The government are doing a ****e job as it is in that type of area.

echosound

Fees on a sliding scale would be the way forward IMO. Base it on the same system used for determining if a student is eligible for a full grant/part maintenance grant/no grant at all.

Students who either themselves fall under a certain low income level (for mature students who are either independent or dependent on a spouse), or who's parents fall under a certain low income level (for most school leavers/under 21s who will be assessed under their parent's income) would have their fees waived, the middling income students pay half fees, and high income students pay full fees.

That way, people who genuinely could not afford to go to college if they had to pay fees would not be denied the opportunity to gain education and better themselves, thereby pulling themselves out of the low income band, into a higher tax bracket, and possibly ensuring that when it comes time for their own children to attend college, they will be earning enough that they will pay full fees.
The people who can afford to pay their own way should do so. Similar to a scholarship system I guess.

It would also have the added bonus of making a degree worth something, as only the people who genuinely want to study a particular area will go to college and work at it, and they will be the best in their field when the time comes to find employment, as they will have a genuine interest in the area they have studied, rather than half-heartedly working in some area they don't have any passion for.

It will discourage people from timewasting by doing random courses if they have to think twice about paying for them if their income level is above a certain threshold.

Of course, while I think the above way is a somewhat equitable way of approaching the issue of fees, which would mean that people who may be bursting with brains and passion for the field they wish to study will not be locked out of pursuing the career they want due to their socio-economic background, I am sure that the richer sections of society will be in uproar at having to pay while the poorer sections don't have to pay. However I'd liken it to the medical card - if you are poor, you get one, if you are not, you don't. Fees - if you are poor, they are waived, or reduced, if you are not, you pay them.

Ireland needs intelligent, enthusiastic young graduates to come up with new ideas, start up businesses, get involved in R&D, pull foreign investment towards locating in Ireland, and if the Govt introduces blanket fees for everyone, far fewer people will go to college, and we will not as a population have the level of education or qualifications needed to ensure economic success.

With the economic situation being what it is, the last thing we need is thousands of school leavers being unable to afford to go to college, thousands of newly redundant people being unable to return to college to retrain, and all unable to find employment either, ending up on the ever-increasing dole queues. Better to spend the time in college bettering their prospects than sitting on their hands all day at home on the dole.

dlofnep

I agree he wasn't well mannered, but my point is is the taxes spent on education will be paid back tenfold by students who earn high and pay taxes in the high tax bracket. I'm more than happy to play my part in society and be taxed in order to ensure education, healthscare and public services are of a high standard. Some people are under the impression that third-level education is optional, and in it being optional - the Irish people are under no oglibation to fund the fees.

dlofnep

Sully wrote: »

A roll call - like it bloody well should be. He has a point. There are far to many people who get free education that don't bother turning up for a lot of their classes because they were to hungover or whatever. Attedance sheets should be taken and those who cant be arsed turning up should be told to get lost.

Attendance sheets are taken Sully.

Please note payment of your grant is subject to satisfactory attendance

Are some abusing the system? Of course. Colleges should be a little more strict on this policy. I 100% agree with it.

Sully wrote: »

I'm against the introduction of fees to students who are struggling but there are plenty of students who are well able to afford it and this is where it should hit. I'm unsure about means testing the family, unless the student lives at home. However, the government have failed to tax those at the moment properly and are hitting the poorer population and ignoring the richer population. I agree with Shane Kelly, president of USI, when he says he doesnt believe that it will be means tested. The government are doing a ****e job as it is in that type of area.

And how do you means-test who can afford it? I've already explained that sending 2 children to college could cost parents €140,000. That's an awful amount of money, and only millionaires could truly afford it. What about the funds allocated to private schools?

Our economy will benefit from education our people. Everyone must have a fair chance at an education. The introduction of fees, and the raising of registration fees will not give everyone a fair chance at an education.

ec18

well butty wrote: »

Third level education is being used by some students who just don't want to work. They start a course, realise they don't like it. Quit after a year or two and start another one (at tax payer's expense). Put a charge in place and weed out the ones that weaken the quality of degrees that are issued. Support the disadvantaged students by providing Government backed loans. This will ensure that the ones that do take up the option of spending 3-5 years in college will value it and work hard at succeeding.

Ah if they start a course, drop out and then start another one you have to pay fees for the number of years they completed of the original course

stick-dan wrote: »

So if you're being assessed and you only earn about ~40,000 this won't affect you is this correct?

that was the last suggestion then

merlante wrote: »

On the other hand, I'm not against families who are bringing in 100,000+ euro a year paying fees that rise with income (up to a point). These families can afford to pay and -- my socialist side coming out here -- there's no point in giving them free education when all they're doing is using the money saved to put their kids through grind schools so they can beat the poor/average to the best college places.

On the other other hand, what if you are 18+ years of age, with rich parents that won't lift a finger to help you financially? Can you dis-include your parents for means testing if they are not contributing? After all, the state can't force your parents to pay, even if they can force you to pay.

Hard to do that, everyone should be assessed the same so in the case of the the person who receives no help from his wealthy parents will have to cough up the fees. No Fees have brought about a change in the way people think about college. It's presumed you are more or less going to college. Which is a very important change in society, the elitism that only the rich go to college has been eliminated. Bringing back fee's is a step backward

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

We're the ones paying the TAXES that get you through college. Your bad manners are indicating that our money is not being well spent.

Your blatant stereotyping about students and how they live and spend their money is a poor reflection all of the taxpayers then. Your taxes that are paying for our education now, well our taxes in the future will be paying for your pension, and for the generation after us. It's really more of a cyclical process and that argument really goes out the window.

If you want to complain about taxes then ask them to audit and streamline the public service, ministers expenses and salaries.

Cabaal

ec18 wrote: »

Your blatant stereotyping about students and how they live and spend their money is a poor reflection all of the taxpayers then. Your taxes that are paying for our education now, well our taxes in the future will be paying for your pension, and for the generation after us. It's really more of a cyclical process and that argument really goes out the window.

If you want to complain about taxes then ask them to audit and streamline the public service, ministers expenses and salaries.

ec18, you'll find people base there view on students based on them actually being a student and knowing exactly what its like...it hasn';t changed and there continues to be a high number of students that just use college as an excuse to get **** faced as much as they can afford yet they'll live on beans and toast.

You'll find anyone's pension is actually paid from their pension fund and their taxes over the years that they;ve paid,.

scout353

Fees should be paid if someone decides they don't like their course and want to change as they would have denied someone else a place originally! At present if you fail a year you have to pay full fees to repeat which is also a good idea!

The steady increase in registration charges is the reintroduction of fees by stealth! Why does it cost someone €900 to accept a place or confirm their continued study at a college - and this is likely to be €1500 next year!

robtri

scout353 wrote: »

The steady increase in registration charges is the reintroduction of fees by stealth! Why does it cost someone €900 to accept a place or confirm their continued study at a college - and this is likely to be €1500 next year!

why... cause the government has no money, everybody in the country is having to cough up more money, so fees are increasing to cover costs...
that covers your question I think....

merlante

Some points:

- Firstly the government have been considering this for years, since around 2005 when things were good.

- Attendance should have nothing to do with entitlement for 3rd level education. A lot of people are perfectly capable of passing with imperfect attendance, or even far from perfect attendance. Exams test whether people are entitled to be enrolled or not. If people don't turn up it's actually better for teacher-student ratios and wear and tear on equipment.

- Universities/colleges were being squeezed all along by the government who had to increase capitation fees to cover basic costs, just as councils had to hammer citizens with all sorts of taxes and charges because they were being systemically starved by central government.

- The one benefit to paying fees is that it would return the student to the role of 'customer', with requirements and a voice, as opposed to being a drain on its government granted resources, as students are currently viewed as.

ec18

Cabaal wrote: »

ec18, you'll find people base there view on students based on them actually being a student and knowing exactly what its like...it hasn';t changed and there continues to be a high number of students that just use college as an excuse to get **** faced as much as they can afford yet they'll live on beans and toast.

if they are basing it on their own experiences than it's a tad hypocritical wouldn't you say?

Cabaal wrote:

You'll find anyone's pension is actually paid from their pension fund and their taxes over the years that they;ve paid,.

Not everyone has a pension fund though and the taxes you are paying now are funding the previous generations state pensions and the next generations education......surely that's not a bad thing to give out about?