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Obama suspends trials at Guantanamo

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    #92
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Can the garbage? WHERE DO WE PUT THEM???? Do you want them in your prisons?.

    They're to be freed.
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    In his mind and no doubt other wacky libs Waterboarding is bad,

    Obviously I was too subtle before - US Governments have been prosecuting those who use waterboarding as far back as the Spanish American war, and through the Second World war. Has every US Government through these eras therefore been composed of "wacky libs"?


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    #93
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,297 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    JohnMc1 wrote:
    So you think it would better for than kind of situation to happen on US Soil in a heavily populated area in our local jails than in Gitmo on a US Naval Base with Soldiers armed to the teeth that can respond to that situation better than local authorities can?

    Munich Massacre 1972. A hostage situation doesnt have to happen even remotely where the Demands are being met.


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    #94
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Nodin wrote: »
    Hasn't the US been consistently prosecuting as a 'war crime' and torture the practice of water boarding since the Spanish-American war?

    My post wasn't just about waterboarding. Overheal said we should surgically implant Radioactive Isotopes in them to track them. The left is going crazy about the Soldiers and Interrogators dousing them with water. Can you imagine the uproar if they surgically implanting radioactive material in them? They would do an about face on the Waterboarding because that 1000X worse. None of them died from Waterboarding. The fatalities from this Sci-Fi experiment would be off the charts.


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    #95
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    He's not talking about sticking a bar of plutonium up their arses. The isotopes are harmless.


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    #96
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    My post wasn't just about waterboarding.

    The left is going crazy about the Soldiers and Interrogators dousing them with water..

    It's waterboarding, not "dousing them with water".
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Can you imagine the uproar if they surgically implanting radioactive material in them? They would do an about face on the Waterboarding because that 1000X worse..

    The implication of your original post was that waterboarding was trivial, and that such an implant, though minor, would thus cause even more complaints given the reaction to the water torture. You never mentioned radioactivity in that post.
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    None of them died from Waterboarding. .

    ...which merely means that its not nessecarily fatal to the subject being tortured. Neither are beatings or suffocations nessecarily fatal, but some have died nonetheless.


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    #97
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Nodin wrote: »
    You never mentioned radioactivity in that post.

    I did. You just read what you wanted to read.

    ...which merely means that its not nessecarily fatal to the subject being tortured. Neither are beatings or suffocations nessecarily fatal, but some have died nonetheless.

    When our soldiers start hacking their limbs off or cutting their heads off with a knife then I'll feel sorry for them. They have their 3 meals, change of clothes, can pray to Mecca when its time to. I refuse to feel sorry for them because they're getting a bath.


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    #98
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,297 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Welcome back,
    How Stuff Works.com wrote:
    Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face.

    Most CIA officials say water boarding is not torture, although many see it as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you. Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a POW during the Vietnam War, says water boarding is definitely a form of torture. Human rights groups agree unanimously that "simulated drowning," causing the prisoner to believe he is about to die, is undoubtedly a form of psychological torture. The international community recognizes "mock executions" as a form of torture, and many place water boarding in that category. In 1947, a Japanese soldier who used water boarding against a U.S. citizen during World War II was sentenced to 15 years in U.S. prison for committing a war crime.

    Whether or not water boarding is a current U.S. interrogation technique is unknown. In September 2006, the Bush administration faced widespread criticism regarding its refusal to sign a Congressional bill outlawing the use of torture techniques against all U.S. prisoners. That same month, the U.S. Department of Defense made it illegal for any member of the U.S. military to use the water-boarding technique. The CIA and its interrogators are unaffected by that new policy, as the CIA is not a branch of the U.S. military.

    As for Isotopes, dont get too worked up, it was an idea from science fiction to make you feel better about letting them go. You could also use the little GPS things they implant in dogs, but its neither here nor there. Theyre going to be let go either way.


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    #99
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    When our soldiers start hacking their limbs off or cutting their heads off with a knife then I'll feel sorry for them.
    How many of the Guantanamo inmates have hacked anyone's limbs off, or cut anyone's head off with a knife?


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    #100
    Pocono Joe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 795 ✭✭✭Pocono Joe


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    How many of the Guantanamo inmates have hacked anyone's limbs off, or cut anyone's head off with a knife?

    Hmmmmmmmmmm... about 26?
    I kid, I kid… I really don’t have an accurate count of how many of them have hacked people's limbs off, or cut someone's head off with a knife?

    Here OB... this might put a smile on your face.
    auth.gif?w=500&h=350


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    #101
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    so i hear he's made an order to continue illegal renditions, but others are denying this.


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    #102
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,297 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    source?


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    #103
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Overheal wrote: »
    Welcome back,



    As for Isotopes, dont get too worked up, it was an idea from science fiction to make you feel better about letting them go. You could also use the little GPS things they implant in dogs, but its neither here nor there. Theyre going to be let go either way.

    I knew your weren't being a 100% serious with that. This can could come back to haunt Obama and ruin his chances at re-election if he's not careful. 11% of the already released have returned to being Terrorists. Gitmo closes and the rest that are released do the same it could be a disaster for him. Especially if there is another 9-11 style attack [Please God that will never happen again]


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    #104
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    I did. You just read what you wanted to read.


    Emmm....No, you didn't. Post 82 it was....
    JohnMc1 wrote:
    We got crybabies whining when they doused them with water. You think there wouldn't be an uproar from said crybabies if they surgically implanted tracking devices in them? Best to leave the Science fiction to TV and movies and lets stay in reality please.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58756341&postcount=82
    JohnMc1 wrote:
    When our soldiers start hacking their limbs off or cutting their heads off with a knife then I'll feel sorry for them.

    I'm suprised your comfortable with anal rape and beatings, but to each their own. Presumably should some captured US personnell be subjected to same, you'll have no sympathy for them either.
    JohnMc1 wrote:
    They have their 3 meals, change of clothes, can pray to Mecca when its time to. I refuse to feel sorry for them because they're getting a bath.

    Again, you use these 'talk radio' styled jibes to diminish what waterboarding is.

    Tell me - if its just "getting a bath" then why has the US been prosecuting it as a crime since the spanish American war?


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    #105
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Nodin wrote: »


    I'm suprised your comfortable with anal rape and beatings, but to each their own. Presumably should some captured US personnell be subjected to same, you'll have no sympathy for them either.

    :rolleyes: The Soldiers who did it were punished for their actions. Keep trying. You think Al Queida would punish their troops for doing the same?


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    #106
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    :rolleyes: The Soldiers who did it were punished for their actions.

    You're referring to Abu Ghraib. That was one prison, and no senior officer was ever charged. The man who investigated it though, had his career cut rather brutally short.
    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/06/25/070625fa_fact_hersh?printable=true
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Keep trying. You think Al Queida would punish their troops for doing the same

    Well as you only seem to have sympathy for those who have limbs hacked off or heads removed, I can't really see why you'd want them to do so....

    Now - as I asked and you seemed to have missed - if waterboarding is just "getting a bath", why have US administrations been prosecuting it since the 1890's?


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    #107
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Pocono Joe wrote: »
    Hmmmmmmmmmm... about 26?
    I kid, I kid… I really don’t have an accurate count of how many of them have hacked people's limbs off, or cut someone's head off with a knife?
    Neither, it seems, does JohnMc1 - but he's happy to assume that they're all guilty of something of that nature, and use that assumption as justification for denying them their civil liberties.


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    #108
    Pocono Joe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 795 ✭✭✭Pocono Joe


    You use me to attack JohnMc1... very sneeky OB.

    Seriously, here is some very good reading of a new Dick Cheney interview regarding Gitmo. Can't wait until the book comes out.
    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18390.html


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    #109
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Neither, it seems, does JohnMc1 - but he's happy to assume that they're all guilty of something of that nature, and use that assumption as justification for denying them their civil liberties.

    How were there liberties denied? They were fed 3 times a day, fresh food, fresh clothes they were allowed to pray to Mecca when it was time. So tell me again how their liberties denied? They got treated alot better than how US soldiers would have been treated if the situation was reversed.


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    #110
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,297 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That makes it legal, does it?


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    #111
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    Apparently nobody has an answer so theu usal suspects are content to have this continue going around in circles. :rolleyes:


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    #112
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    How were there liberties denied?

    Well to point out the blatantly obvious, they were held incommunicado for years, kept in isolatation and tortured, without so much as a kangaroo court to justify it.
    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    Apparently nobody has an answer

    To be honest, its a bit much to turn up and make such a statement, seeing as you've been dodging the same repeated question from me for quite a while, in one form or another.

    We will try again - if waterboarding is just "getting a bath", why have US administrations been prosecuting it since the 1890's?


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    #113
    Pocono Joe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 795 ✭✭✭Pocono Joe


    (I guess I just don’t know when to just ride off into the sunset on some hot topic issues, but OB said I can’t win this one, and I just hate losing a battle. I guess the most I can hope for is a retreat back to the 39th Parallel)

    Waterboarding, or "Water Cure" as it has been better known throughout the years, was also used in Vietnam by U.S. forces against Viet Cong captives and sympathizers. This was done both during Democrat and Republican presidencies.

    It has had its ups and downs politically, both prosecuted and not prosecuted, depending on which way the prevailing public opinion wind blows.

    From my readings and by many accounts, it appears US history shows that the "water cure" has been accepted as a necessary embarrassment in wartime.


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    #114
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Pocono Joe wrote: »
    From my readings and by many accounts, it appears US history shows that the "water cure" has been accepted as a necessary embarrassment in wartime.
    Hm. The rights afforded by the constitution don't apply in time of war, even if it's a stupid war on an abstract noun?

    I guess that's what happens when you draft a constitution against the backdrop of peace and harmony, with no need to worry about the extreme circumstances of war. Stupid founding fathers.


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    #115
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pocono Joe wrote: »
    From my readings and by many accounts, it appears US history shows that the "water cure" has been accepted as a necessary embarrassment in wartime.

    Yet they prosecuted for it during WWII.

    Also - was it officially permitted during Vietnam?


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    #116
    Pocono Joe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 795 ✭✭✭Pocono Joe


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...was it officially permitted during Vietnam?

    No.


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    #117
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pocono Joe wrote: »
    No.

    Then tbh I fail to see why you mention it. Abuses will happen, and occassionally a blind eye might be turned, however under the Bush presidency there was an official policy. Quite a different thing.


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    #118
    Pocono Joe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 795 ✭✭✭Pocono Joe


    Nodin wrote: »
    Then tbh I fail to see why you mention it. Abuses will happen, and occassionally a blind eye might be turned, however under the Bush presidency there was an official policy. Quite a different thing.

    Probably because that particular war and unique circumstances seems to have exonerated the "water cure" and reduced it's status to to a misdemeanor.


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    #119
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pocono Joe wrote: »
    Probably because that particular war and unique circumstances seems to have exonerated the "water cure" and reduced it's status to to a misdemeanor.

    Was it criminal? Yes.

    If special circumstances occurred in that war that 'rehabiltated' water boarding, I've yet to hear of them. America did not come out of Vietnam well, if you might recall.

    Do you have a source for that, and the claim its status was reduced to a "misdemeanor"?


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    #120
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,297 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrUFIDFi8is


    Somewhere between surfing youtube for christian bale and bill o reilly rage, I found this.

    "We just agree to disagree with them."

    Wow.


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    #121
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Has one calendar date ever been used to justify so much?


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