my bargain order cancelled!!! not fair!!!

antoinolachtnai

seamus wrote: »

Actually, contracts in general do need to be reasonable and fair, otherwise they could be overturned by a court.

You say that contracts in general have to be reasonable and fair.

I look forward to you providing examples of cases where contracts have been overturned because they were unreasonable or unfair (other than terms which are unfair to the deteriment of the consumer which are a special case under 93/13/EEC)

cahirhennessy

Somebody in Argos made a mistake. They may even lose their job over it. Join the human race and let it go.

LiamD

One of the things to come out of the Aer Lingus mispricing fiasco was that there is a clause somewhere in consumer law somewhere (not sure if it's at Irish or EU level) that states that if something seems to good to be true (e.g. a couch at 16% of the RRP) and the consumer attempts to exploit the retailers mistake knowing that it is too good to be true then it doesn't have to be honoured.

It came out after the staff and all their mates were discovered booking the 5e business class flights.

idunnoutellme

but like the couch was on the site with a tag 'lower than half price'....so what i had to go to them and ask 'sorry would you say this is too good to be true, cos if it isnt i'll take it!' me arse

something else happened yesterday...

before xmas my mam saw a special offer on their site for a memory foam mattress and another offer for a 4 drawer divan bed that she liked - offers only online...so went instore and ordered them.

yesterday they were delivered - we postponed delivery - mattress is not memory foam and the bed only has 2 drawers. now their book and website are completely updated so we cant go back and complain at all cos the reference numbers for the mattress and bed are not existant now and the receipt just says mattress and bed...

dont shop in argos....
well i'll write a letter today, why not, in fairness i could have had it at home if it was given to me there and then..
just as the mattress and the bed, the couch was only advertised online - thats false advertising, they wasted my time and now i have no couch, the wrong bed and the wrong mattress.

antoinolachtnai

Argos will take it back though, won't they?

LiamD: don't remember that finding myself.

Tester46

seamus wrote: »

Actually, contracts in general do need to be reasonable and fair, otherwise they could be overturned by a court.

You are clearly not a lawyer. There is no principle of law that contracts have to be fair and reasonable. That is a matter for the contracting parties. The OP, as a consumer, has additional protection in consumer law. He is protected from certain unfair terms. But Argos is not a consumer.

Given that Argos is a discount retailer which is presumably offering many many special offers at the moment, it is not at all unreasonable for the OP to think he was getting a great promotional deal. That is the case particularly because that price was on (a) the website and (b) the instore machines. Also, it must have been accepted by the cashier so that is a third place the price was set out.

Once Argos accepted the deal (which they have done), there is a binding contract. Argos cannot really argue mistake here is it is perfectly concieveable that a retailer like this could have offered the couch as a special offer. They had plenty of opportunities tofix their mistake before the OP bought.

Don't back down OP - you should not suffer because Argos messed up/changed their minds/other.

Climate Expert

I wonder would it be possible to take them to the small claims court for the real market value (€1100) of the couch. I'm not sure if you can use the small claims court to make them give you a couch.

anna77

The same thing happened to me, we had been looking at these couches before christmas so when I was checking them on saturday morning I nearly fell off the bed. I rang their ordering line and they confirmed the price, but wouldnt accept my laser card. So got my husbands credit card number and rang them back, different person who also confirmed price but wouldnt accept husband cc as he wasnot here in person to order it. So in the awful weather conditions I took myself and my two kids and drove so fast in case they would sell out, up to my nearest store and ordered one, paid in cash and re confirmed price with the girl at the till, who said it end of stock item.

My husband came home from work and decided we order another for the playroom, so he went down dealt with different person, ordered it and also had a customer service agent arrange that the two be delivered together.

Now yesterday got a message, no apology or name saying our order cancelled, I am so upset.
I thought it genuine bargain the way sales are at the moment and it said less then half price.
We are taking it further as we have paid them, if it were other way around and they looking for money from us they would make sure they get it.

snappieT

Argos is strange, but I find that if you call customer services, everything gets sorted. It is a UK number, but give 0044 845 640 3030 a shot. I would imagine if you calmly explain that you are entitled to the couch under Irish law, they'll sort it out for you.

Write the letter if that doesn't work, to Customer Services, the manager of the store where you purchased, and to Argos Direct (the delivery section of the business).

You are entitled to the couch. Go get it.

rubadub

Climate Expert wrote: »

The cashier thought nothing unsual in selling a couch for e200 and they really are the last line of defence for a shop if they make a sale.

Its the price Argos have to pay for having such a large business and incompetant staff. A smaller furniture shop would never let this happen.

The people in the small shop know what they are selling, they will know the usual prices of stuff and can SEE it. Argos have a massive catalogue, new one is out now, even bigger. When you go to pay they type in a number and robotically read out what is on screen, which is often a very vague oddball description, I often have to think twice when they ask me to confirm what it is. I am not surprised they did not cop it, €119 is probably not unimaginable for the description they got.

Climate Expert wrote: »

He already has. If the couch was in stock he'd have it in his car.

Possibly, but it would have passed through other people who might have seen the price, in the same boat though, the thing is paid for. Problem with these bigger places is often the staff are not that loyal, sometimes they might even like if a customer gets one over on "the boss".

anotherlostie wrote: »

Of course what if Argos tell the OP that the item is no longer available and cannot be sourced? What can be done then?

Thats what I wonder too. Maybe argos do have some different legal T&Cs. They are unusual in that you pay first and then collect, what if they legitimately do not have something, they sold the last one, or it broke on the way out to you, and the supplier had gone bust so there was no way of getting another.

January

rubadub wrote: »

Thats what I wonder too. Maybe argos do have some different legal T&Cs. They are unusual in that you pay first and then collect, what if they legitimately do not have something, they sold the last one, or it broke on the way out to you, and the supplier had gone bust so there was no way of getting another.

The "they sold the last one" wouldn't have happened because the computer shows up if the item is unavailable and what stores, if any, it is available in so they can tell the customer they can order it from there. You can check on the order pickers in store too, so the OP knew it was in stock.

derry

I always manged to source anything I saw in Argos somehwhere else in Dublin for less money so never had to buy from them

Sometimes I have paid 50% less for the Item than the Argos price and that is from other shops in Dublin without to go to Northern Ireland

The argument that Argos would not have a €200 couch instead for a €1000 couch is not impossible in these sales cost cutting world.Loss leaders are all the rage now to drum up buisness

Good luck with your sofa

Derry

colly10

cahirhennessy wrote: »

Somebody in Argos made a mistake. They may even lose their job over it. Join the human race and let it go.

Tell them to keep a grand cause someone made a mistake? Obviously some very honest/rich people on these boards.
OP - they owe you the couch, take it to small claims if they refuse, they actually have a cheek asking you to call in to collect your refund, the very least they could do is transfer it into your account or post out a check

snappieT

adrieanne__x wrote: »

The "they sold the last one" wouldn't have happened because the computer shows up if the item is unavailable and what stores, if any, it is available in so they can tell the customer they can order it from there. You can check on the order pickers in store too, so the OP knew it was in stock.

That's how it works for in-store items, but the home delivery items work a bit differently. I believe that the lead time given to the customer is based on stock availability, but this is not a live figure, rather updated once a day. So if there was an unusual run on an item, they could run out of stock, and yet customers would still be able to order.
Furthermore, sometimes very long lead times are given (42 days), which usually means that Argos Direct haven't got the stock yet, but are waiting on it from the suppliers. If the supplier was to go bust, I suppose there is nothing Argos could do.

jahalpin

jor el wrote: »

This has happened with Dell on numerous occasions, and also with Aer Lingus, and they've never been made to honour the deal. The last time there was a problem at Aer Lingus, they were selling business class tickets at coach prices. The NCA made a statement at the time, that anyone who's payment was accepted, should be given the ticket. However, Aer Lingus denied this, and refused the tickets. Nobody held Aer Lingus to account, and they were free to refund the passengers.

I think that in the end, in the Aer Lingus case, they gave people coach tickets, not business class. Though, officially and legally, they had purchased business class, and the payment had been accepted by Aer Lingus.

In the end, nobody will fight this for you. So if Argos refuse to honour the sale, you won't be able to force them.

Once payment is accepted by the retailer they have entered into a contract under the Sale of goods and supply of services act and are obliged to deliver the goods as per their side of the contract. You could probably sue them for breach of contract etc.

Retailers are protected from misprices etc only until they have accepted the customers consideration ie cash. As Argos have accepted the cash and the customer can prove them, then they must deliver the goods to the customer

Dell protect themselves from mis-prices by stating that an order is not accepted until an official order confirmation is sent by them. At this stage they are obliged to honour the contract with the customer.

The management at Argos are well aware of this and the customer should refuse to accept the refund and should inform the manager of their rights

TheBigLebowski

jahalpin wrote: »

Once payment is accepted by the retailer they have entered into a contract under the Sale of goods and supply of services act and are obliged to deliver the goods as per their side of the contract. You could probably sue them for breach of contract etc.

Retailers are protected from misprices etc only until they have accepted the customers consideration ie cash. As Argos have accepted the cash and the customer can prove them, then they must deliver the goods to the customer

Dell protect themselves from mis-prices by stating that an order is not accepted until an official order confirmation is sent by them. At this stage they are obliged to honour the contract with the customer.

The management at Argos are well aware of this and the customer should refuse to accept the refund and should inform the manager of their rights

All very well but morally I think it stinks...

antoinolachtnai

There are other issues withe online transactions. In particular, it is an issue that there is no human agent involved, and there is at least a theoretical difficulty in forming a contract with a machine. At least this is my understanding.

This doesn't arise with the present Argos case that I can see.

parsi

adrieanne__x wrote: »

The "they sold the last one" wouldn't have happened because the computer shows up if the item is unavailable and what stores, if any, it is available in so they can tell the customer they can order it from there. You can check on the order pickers in store too, so the OP knew it was in stock.

It can happen.

I did a ring and reserve once on a surround sound system and when I went in they could not find it for love nor money. I was there for around 45 mins and the manager kept coming up to inform me of progress (or the lack of it). In the end I went for the next one up and they threw in speaker stands free as a gesture. Net cost was much the same.

chrislad

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

All very well but morally I think it stinks...

Excuse me if I don't feel for Argos.

Just a random sofa picked on both their UK and Irish websites.

Irish Site: http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/6291765/Trail/C$cip=1500018901>C$cip=1500018986.htm

Price: 825e

UK Site: http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalogId=1500001501&langId=-1&searchTerms=6291765&Submit=GO+%3E

Price: £538.29 (xe.com Euro price is 563.85)

That's nearly 265e of a difference for the same product. I'm not going to get into the economies of it as I've not aware of the rent, wages etc, and even including the VAT different of around 18% to 21.5%, I'm still finding it hard to see how that difference is justified.

antoinolachtnai

It's subtly different too, because if he paid for it and it was in stock when he ordered it, he may well already own it. Argos are only taking care of it for him until they get around to delivering it. When they offered the refund, if this is true, they were just offering to buy the sofa back for the price he paid.

This sounds like a subtle legal point, but it is significant.

bardcom

idunnoutellme wrote: »

ok guys just got off the phone with consumer affairs
she said i could write a letter statin my case that they entered into a contract at point of sale and have to honour it,then either seek legal advice or take the refund.
sounds like a lot of work....feckers ugh
so unfair tho SO UNFAIR would have had my couch in 2 weeks i'll try argue my case tho definitely

What would be the point of taking the refund?

Did the consumer affairs people confirm that once the $$ is handed over, you have a valid contract and they have to honour it?

A trip to the small claims court will sort this out pretty quickly.

madmik

get a life
shops and going under and u expect them to almost give you a couch for free

people like u shouldnt be allowed in shops

foggy_lad

they will have to buy the sofa back off you if they want to get out of this mess although the old saying that posession is 9tenths....would mean they could just claim to not being able to deliver for some reason and refund you what you paid!

hellboy99

chrislad wrote: »

Excuse me if I don't feel for Argos.

Just a random sofa picked on both their UK and Irish websites.

Irish Site: http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/6291765/Trail/C$cip=1500018901>C$cip=1500018986.htm

Price: 825e

UK Site: http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalogId=1500001501&langId=-1&searchTerms=6291765&Submit=GO+%3E

Price: £538.29 (xe.com Euro price is 563.85)

That's nearly 265e of a difference for the same product. I'm not going to get into the economies of it as I've not aware of the rent, wages etc, and even including the VAT different of around 18% to 21.5%, I'm still finding it hard to see how that difference is justified.

I'll give you a better one, have a look in their recently new catalogue and if you still have their old one compare prices, the differences in price in just over a week are unreal. Here's one example:

Streetwize Carpeted Boom Box with LED - 038/3071 - €74.79

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/0383071/Trail/C$cip=1500019726%3EC$cip=1500019754.htm

Same item in the old catalogue / if you purchased it two weeks ago - €39.99.

Little Miss Cutie

OP any update?

cgarvey

Easily the most defining thread, on boards.ie, on the difference between morally right and legally right.

I must admit, I was under the impression that contracts must be fair and reasonable (for both parties), from my very limited legal classes, so I read this thread with interest (and note a lack of any reference!).

psicic

In my personal opinion, I'm fairly certain that Argos' pricing was a mistake, an oversight or some other type of genuine mistake. However, that doesn't invalidate the rights of the consumer when a contract has formed.

Shops are protected from mis-prices by the concept of invitation to treat - something many of you will remember from school. In other words, the shop isn't some sort of 'rights-less victim' in this scenario.

However, once money changes hands - and with very few caveats - a contract forms that binds both parties. In a contract, if one party - in this case the shop - wants to alter or change the terms of the contract, they have to have the agreement of the other party - in this case the consumer, unless it's due to an inability to supply the product or similar. And don't forget, they had plenty of opportunity to spot the mistake - their marketing people, their catalogue people, their phone service, their in-store check and, finally, at the till. Noticing it at a later stage is far too late.

There are very good reasons why people have the rights they have. In the past, unscrupulous people engaged in tactics known as Bait and Switch. A line has to be drawn somewhere and, in this instance, it favours the consumer because of the advanced stage the contract was at.

(Not for one minute do I suggest Argos was using such a tactic, by the way. I am merely explaining why a company can't just turn around and say 'Sorry, that price was a mistake' once they've taken your money.).

I remember earlier this month, Argos was selling a picture frame in Irish stores for €20-€30 less then in their UK stores. This wasn't a misprice, it was a special offer. Given such past offers, a consumer could reasonably assume that , on an end-of-stock couch, in the January Sales period, a large discount was reasonable.

The consumer has a very clear path to satisfaction here: letter to Argos (I'd suggest their UK customer services - as I have personally dealt with them and are very nice and reasonable and terribly English - but whoever is the right channel), then Small Claims Court (which costs €15 to take a case in and is informal).

If a judge is the Small Claims Court says the consumer is not due the couch, so be it. However, store managers, customer service agents or anonymous posters on an internet forum are not anything even close to an authority on the matter, each with their own reasons behind their opinions/posts.

idunnoutellme

ye i just went and got my money back...was told the couch costs 1199.99 do you want it for that price?!!
there is another woman who posted tho who said she bought 2 couches and orders were cancelled - i wander if she wrote a letter or complained?

the groutch

a bit of a disappointing end, I was hoping you would follow this up, and hopefully set a precedence for future cases

Bugnut

snappieT wrote: »

Argos is strange, but I find that if you call customer services, everything gets sorted. It is a UK number, but give 0044 845 640 3030 a shot. I would imagine if you calmly explain that you are entitled to the couch under Irish law, they'll sort it out for you.

Write the letter if that doesn't work, to Customer Services, the manager of the store where you purchased, and to Argos Direct (the delivery section of the business).

You are entitled to the couch. Go get it.

Agreed, when you get the "normal" customer service reply from a store staff member in Ireland ,call the UK helpline number and you get excellent manerly and prompt service - like you matter to the company.

The bottom line is the Consumer Affairs Agency here does nothing !
In the Uk they kick ass and take your case on and make calls on your behalf.
MY EXPERIENCE.
I ordered insulation from B&Q in Naas, took a day off for delivery, checked the day before all was ok, checked the morning of delivery and all was ok for that day.
3pm came and no delivery - called Naas back and was told none in stock, Hard luck basically.No Idea when they would get it back in !
Called UK customer services, no problem, arranged delivery from Liffey Valley and a Voucher for 50 quid .

I rest my case.

Get your couch - tough luck Argos - get it right or pay just like the rest of us.

Revolution not Evolution