What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

m83

I just watched this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD97OVJ4PNw

It certainly raises some interesting questions. If abortion was to become illegal, what do you think the punishment should be?

ntlbell

The same as murder.

Murder should be a minimum of 25 years I think this would be a good starting point.

m83

ntlbell wrote: »

The same as murder.

Murder should be a minimum of 25 years I think this would be a good starting point.

Fair enough. At what stage of the pregnancy would this sentence apply?

How about the morning after pill?

Nevyn

m83 wrote: »

How about the morning after pill?

The morning after pill aka the emergency contraceptive pill does not cause an abortion to occur
if it did then it would be illegal in this country and it's not.

m83

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

ntlbell

m83 wrote: »

Fair enough. At what stage of the pregnancy would this sentence apply?

How about the morning after pill?

This is always very difficult aspect to define where life begins.

I think this has to be a scientific issue and not a moral one.

So today the first point we can scientifically detect life whatever that stage is.

m83

Ok, hypothetical situation for you.

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

Still 25 years?

CathyMoran

I am only pro abortion if the mothers life is at risk (physically, not mental health) or the unborn baby would be in great suffering when born. I think that the people who do the abortions should be given a long sentence but those who have them should receive councelling and support.

In terms of the map, I believe that life begins at implantation...

seanybiker

m83 wrote: »

Still 25 years?

Yup. Definately.

Oryx

<I havent watched the vid.>

I think youd have to keep morality and talk of murder out of it. It should be dealt with like a medical malpractice, and any penalty based on the circumstances.

Also who would you accuse? The practitioner of the abortion? The pregnant woman who seeks it? Both?

Nevyn

m83 wrote: »

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

It prevents a pregnancy from occurring there for it does not end a pregnancy
and the legal and medical definition of abortion is to end or terminate a pregnancy before it is completed.

While a woman may have conceived she is not medically or legally pregnant until the embryo implants, post conception contraception prevents this from happening.

Again prevents a pregnancy does not end one, ergo does not cause an abortion and it not an abortificant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZKuuUPjk1Q

Jesus Wept

Abortions for all.

ntlbell

m83 wrote: »

Ok, hypothetical situation for you.

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

Still 25 years?

Yup.

She could have the baby and give it up for adoption etc, the baby didn't rape her and beat her to an inch of her life why should the unborn be murdered?

The only situation I'd consider no jail time is where the mother's life is at risk if she has the baby

ebmma

Oh dear. You can't 'kill' what isn't there yet.

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

Yup.

She could have the baby and give it up for adoption etc, the baby didn't rape her and beat her to an inch of her life why should the unborn be murdered?

Because it's a non-sentient clump of cells at early stage?

http://www.leedsreproductivemedicine.co.uk/images/sixcell_embryo.jpg
is not the same as
http://ecostreet.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/baby-gown.jpg

ntlbell

bluewolf wrote: »

Because it's a non-sentient clump of cells at early stage?

http://www.leedsreproductivemedicine.co.uk/images/sixcell_embryo.jpg
is not the same as
http://ecostreet.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/baby-gown.jpg

so at what stage is there a difference in your opinion between the two?

where do you define the start of life?

ntlbell

ebmma wrote: »

Oh dear. You can't 'kill' what isn't there yet.

well as he didn't state her recovery period we don't know if there is or isn't yet do we...

again, where do you define the start of life?

4 weeks? 5? 6? 12?

Svalbard

If those lovely people with the placards (who clearly have thought long and hard about issues surrounding abortion) can't agree to punish women who choose termination, I find it hard to believe people on this board are so sure a 25 year jail term is indicated.

jill_valentine

m83 wrote: »

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

Every time you don't have sex you prevent a would-be pregnancy.

And no offense, my beloved boardsies, but I suspect there's a lot of non-sex happening all over the board. Why I'd even go so far as to say this place is a veritable hotbed of non-sex.

ntlbell

Svalbard wrote: »

If those lovely people with the placards (who clearly have thought long and hard about issues surrounding abortion) can't agree to punish women who choose termination, I find it hard to believe people on this board are so sure a 25 year jail term is indicated.

I'm not basing the 25yrs on what they said I didn't listen to most of it.

but anyone who's going around with a placard against abortion who thinks it shouldn't be illegal and hasn't thought about a punishment is probably a tiny little bit of a moron.

Svalbard

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm not basing the 25yrs on what they said I didn't listen to most of it.

but anyone who's going around with a placard against abortion who thinks it shouldn't be illegal and hasn't thought about a punishment is probably a tiny little bit of a moron.

Well at least we can agree on one thing. They are morons.

m83

jill_valentine wrote: »

Every time you don't have sex you prevent a would-be pregnancy.

And no offense, my beloved boardsies, but I suspect there's a lot of non-sex happening all over the board. Why I'd even go so far as to say this place is a veritable hotbed of non-sex.

Thanks for learnin' me, hence why I posted in humanities.

I think the video posed a bit of a trick question. IMHO, if someone was to be punished it should be the practitioner for malpractice.

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

so at what stage is there a difference in your opinion between the two?

where do you define the start of life?

There is no "start of life". Sperm and ova are not non-life.

In my opinion, roughly depending on brain development.

CathyMoran

Anyone who goes through with an abortion is going through their own source of hell and should not be punished in my opinion (but should be given support). Those who perpetrate such crimes should be locked away for life though...

Nevyn

CathyMoran wrote: »

Those who perpetrate such crimes should be locked away for life though...

I disagree.

For the most part those who do preform abortions where they are legal
do so in order to provide safe medical terminations to women
rather then have them seek out unsafe back street abortions or to
try and preform them on themselves which are a risks to their life's, health and fertility.

johnnyskeleton

m83 wrote: »

I just watched this video:

It certainly raises some interesting questions. If abortion was to become illegal, what do you think the punishment should be?

Abortion is illegal in Ireland:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1861/cukpga_18610100_en_3#pb7-l1g52

The Offences Against the Person Act, 1861 (c.100) wrote:

58. Administering drugs or using instruments to procure abortion

Every woman, being with child, who, with intent to procure her own miscarriage, shall unlawfully administer to herself any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, and whosoever, with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, shall be guilty of felony, and being convicted thereof shall be liable to be [imprisoned] for life.


59. Procuring drugs, &c. to cause abortion

Whosoever shall unlawfully supply or procure any poison or other noxious thing, or any instrument or thing whatsoever, knowing that the same is intended to be unlawfully used or employed with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable to be imprisoned for any period not less than three years and not exceeding five years.

I think the penalty, in this modern age, should be a large fine and a discretionary temporary suspension of your medical licence. In practical terms, no one is prosecuted for getting or supplying an abortion.

As to whether a non-drug abortion would be illegal, it might be causing serious harm contrary to s.4 NFOAP, 1997, but that's a very dodgy one.

ntlbell

bluewolf wrote: »

There is no "start of life". Sperm and ova are not non-life.

In my opinion, roughly depending on brain development.

so it's something that can be flushed down the toilet until there some sort of brain activity?

johnnyskeleton

CathyMoran wrote: »

Anyone who goes through with an abortion is going through their own source of hell and should not be punished in my opinion (but should be given support). Those who perpetrate such crimes should be locked away for life though...

God damn anti-doctor lobby...

mayordenis

Thaedydal wrote: »

I disagree.

For the most part those who do preform abortions where they are legal
do so in order to provide safe medical terminations to women
rather then have them seek out unsafe back street abortions or to
try and preform them on themselves which are a risks to their life's, health and fertility.

this is correct, a thousand times.

metrovelvet

Yes she should be punished. To what extent? Couldnt say.

But the person, clinciian, abortionist, whoever actually performs the abortion could get a far more severe sentennce since s/he's the one who actually does it.

Phototoxin

The morning after pill aka the emergency contraceptive pill does not cause an abortion to occur
if it did then it would be illegal in this country and it's not.

false logic. It depends how abortion is defined in the law and what the pill itself does.

Some pills prevent ovulation, some prevent implantation, some cause the impanted embryo to be ejected. If one believes that life begins at conception then it is abortive. For the record about 50% of conceptions (not implantations) are aborted naturally.

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

not the babys fault. I'm mentally ill, I cannot handle the truama of looking at 6 year old boys, is it therefore ok that I kill 6 year olds ? No because it is not their fault and I should not take it out on them.
She should be given support and if she doenst want the child should be adopted. Part of the problem is society where in our pseudo-catholic society people are judgemental about single mothers and anything to do with sex.

In addition it is unfar that the rapist will probably be out in 7 years or soemthing. Life imprisonment, being shagged up the bum by butch mc hardy might make others reconsider.

solution for abortionist - abort the abortionist? Ya know inject caustic solution to them or cut them up and vacuum up the pieces...
(though most abortions are not doen this way I think)

Abortions for all.

minature american flags for others?

Every time you don't have sex you prevent a would-be pregnancy.

that is non sensical, there is no chance for pregnancy to occur if no sex takes place. By that logic I'm allowing rape and murder to take place because I'm not actively out crusading against it.

the keyword in offences against the person is 'unlawful'.

Unlawful abortionists should be stripped of medical license (if any), possibly charged with GBH too.

Nevyn

Phototoxin wrote: »

false logic. It depends how abortion is defined in the law and what the pill itself does.

The definition of abortion and pregnancy which I gave is the definition in Irish law.

The emergency contraceptive pill or m.a.p. which is prescribed in this country under Irish law is not an abortifcant.

Phototoxin wrote: »

solution for abortionist - abort the abortionist? Ya know inject caustic solution to them or cut them up and vacuum up the pieces...(though most abortions are not doen this way I think)

Why don't you go research and find out instead of assuming and spouting drivel uninformed opinion ?

Phototoxin wrote: »

Unlawful abortionists should be stripped of medical license (if any), possibly charged with GBH too.

GBH against whom, the woman or the fetus ?

johnnyskeleton

Phototoxin wrote: »

false logic. It depends how abortion is defined in the law and what the pill itself does.

Abortion is procuring a miscarriage.

Phototoxin wrote: »

not the babys fault. I'm mentally ill, I cannot handle the truama of looking at 6 year old boys, is it therefore ok that I kill 6 year olds ? No because it is not their fault and I should not take it out on them.

It's more because abortion is seen as a personal right of the mother, the child's personal rights only kick in at a later stage. Interestingly enough though (well, I think it's interesting), there is an old legal defence to murder of infanticide, whereby if a mother kills her child within the first year of it's life it is not considered murder. Don't forget that it is society, not any innate sense of right or wrong, which makes the law.

Phototoxin wrote: »

She should be given support and if she doenst want the child should be adopted. Part of the problem is society where in our pseudo-catholic society people are judgemental about single mothers and anything to do with sex.

To be fair, a greater part of the problem is that adopting a child is not that easy, and for many, an abortion is preferable to an adoption.

Phototoxin wrote: »

In addition it is unfar that the rapist will probably be out in 7 years or soemthing. Life imprisonment, being shagged up the bum by butch mc hardy might make others reconsider.

While imprisonment is a very poor deterrent for violent crime anyway, it is an even worse deterrent for rape. [plug]All this will and more be discussed in the crime & criminology forum, coming to a board near you soon[/plug]. I would also argue that human punishments for crimes are never fair, they are just practical.

Phototoxin wrote: »

Unlawful abortionists should be stripped of medical license (if any), possibly charged with GBH too.

Keeping abortion illegal, but not prosecuting anyone for it, is a typically Irish solution. I would be extremely wary of punishing doctors who procure abortions for humanitarian (rather than money making) reasons. Also, GBH is no longer an offence.

The_Minister

I would imagine that most people want to jail the abortion providers.

axel rose

wow...I wonder how many of our anti abortion posters have actually been in the position of chosing whether or not to have an abortion. How many of our posters have organised adoptions for themselves?
Yea making something illegal really solves the problem :rolleyes:. Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

axel rose

Cathy, I read your post on the parenting board and I am so sorry for what you are going through. I really wish you the best of luck for the next time.

People are different Cathy you were pregnant, are in a loving supportive relationship and want a baby-Not everyone finds themselves in this position. Its niave people that assume that many people who have abortions do so as a method of birth control. (not saying that you assume this)
Abortion is necessary for some people, and when its the right choice then there is no regrets. Of three people I know that had terminations they had no regrets. The decision wasnt easy for them but they are still sure it was right for them.

axel rose

em did I imagine cathymorans post?

CathyMoran

Sorry, I found it too painful to post and deleted it...

SeekUp

m83 wrote: »

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

But if it's not a pregnancy yet (hence the would-be), then she hasn't done anything wrong.

Good question, OP . . . there's so much heated debate about the legality of abortion, I'd bet that many of us had never really gotten so far as the punishment for someone who makes this choice.

Not that I have an answer, of course . . . :rolleyes:

axel rose

Ah cathymoran I didnt mean to upset you.

I just hope that next time it will all work out for you. ....God I dont know what else to say.

CathyMoran

axel rose wrote: »

wow...I wonder how many of our anti abortion posters have actually been in the position of chosing whether or not to have an abortion. How many of our posters have organised adoptions for themselves?
Yea making something illegal really solves the problem :rolleyes:. Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

I agree that you have to be in a situation to understand it - I was in a loving relationship when I got pregnant and I loved my baby from the moment I knew of its existence - being pregnant throws up all sorts of emotions, not wanting that baby must be very upsetting, even more so when your hormones are in termoil from the pregnancy...not a good place to be. I still cant agree with abortion though, these women need help to see their options...my husband is adopted and I am so very proud that his mummy went through the 9 months so that he could have a better life. It should never be the woman who has the abortion who is punished, only the people who do it.

axel rose

Its different strokes for different folks Cathymoran. I am always brought back to the x case every time the rights and wrongs of abortion are debated. She was just a child who had no control to what happened to her.
Its such an emotive topic and that is why I dont think that its possible to be completely black and white on the issue.

I would imagine that many women go into denial mode and just cant consider adoption. I really think that adoption is by far the most difficult choice for women emotionally and commend any woman who can do it.

Phototoxin

GBH against whom, the woman or the fetus ?

the child who is in the fetal stage of development. Also didn't realise GBH wasn't a crime here. Aggrivated assault or whatever the equivilant is if we're not going down the murder/25-life route.

I would imagine that most people want to jail the abortion providers.

for what though ? making lots of money? =p
Where its legal they make loads. And if its illegal I doubt they would work openly. Where its illegal they put womens health at risk so jail them for endangering women ? (assuming you dont think the fetus has rights ofc)

Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

having a child is not a punishment. Killing a baby is punishing the baby before its born.

Its niave people that assume that many people who have abortions do so as a method of birth control. (not saying that you assume this)

Theres a option called 'not having sex' or alternatively another thing called 'contraception'. However if people have sex then one of the possible outcomes is a pregancy and they should, as people mature enough to decide about sex, take that into consideration and not take that out on the child.

She was just a child who had no control to what happened to her.

So was her child despite the horrific circumstances surrounding it. But all aborting it would do is kill the baby so now two people's rights have been violated.

jill_valentine

This thread is gonna produce a skewed picture of opinions on the wider issue of whether abortion is right or wrong; I'm pro-choice, so I've got no real opinion about the penalty for illegal abortions.

axel rose

Phototoxin wrote: »

Theres a option called 'not having sex' or alternatively another thing called 'contraception'. However if people have sex then one of the possible outcomes is a pregancy and they should, as people mature enough to decide about sex, take that into consideration and not take that out on the child.

.

So I take it women consent to being raped and contraception never fails. Pretty black and white attitude you have there mate.

Acacia

ntlbell wrote: »

Yup.

She could have the baby and give it up for adoption etc, the baby didn't rape her and beat her to an inch of her life why should the unborn be murdered?

The only situation I'd consider no jail time is where the mother's life is at risk if she has the baby

Would you honestly have a rape victim jailed just because she couldn't bear to carry her attacker's child?

I know it's not the baby's fault, but it's not the mother's either. She didn't give consent to have the child, to carry it and give birth to it. Why should she have to go through that, effectively ruining her life, just because some sicko raped her? In my mind, that's like punishing her for his crime.

It's not as easy as saying ''oh, just have it adopted''. The woman would still have to carry and give birth to a child she doesn't want and has no choice in having. And live with the fact that there is a connection to her rapist out there somewhere, who could try and find her in the future.

CathyMoran wrote: »

I am only pro abortion if the mothers life is at risk (physically, not mental health) or the unborn baby would be in great suffering when born. I think that the people who do the abortions should be given a long sentence but those who have them should receive councelling and support.

In terms of the map, I believe that life begins at implantation...

Why not mental health issues? Are they not real problems?

What if the woman is suicidal?

ebmma

ntlbell wrote: »

so at what stage is there a difference in your opinion between the two?

where do you define the start of life?

I agree with 24 weeks threshold for terminations.

Macha

Acacia wrote: »

Why not mental health issues? Are they not real problems?

What if the woman is suicidal?

This is symptomatic of the bizarre attitude we have in Ireland towards mental health. If someone hurts their arm, they go to the doctor so why not with a mental problem?

ebmma

axel rose wrote: »

Cathy, I read your post on the parenting board and I am so sorry for what you are going through. I really wish you the best of luck for the next time.

People are different Cathy you were pregnant, are in a loving supportive relationship and want a baby-Not everyone finds themselves in this position. Its niave people that assume that many people who have abortions do so as a method of birth control. (not saying that you assume this)
Abortion is necessary for some people, and when its the right choice then there is no regrets. Of three people I know that had terminations they had no regrets. The decision wasnt easy for them but they are still sure it was right for them.

Thanks Axel, you put my thoughts into words.

Mr. Incognito

This is a strange thread.

What should the penalty be?

For who??

For the woman- none. People that are desperate enough to seek and illegal abortion should not be punished.

As to life imprionment for the abortionist- get real. It's not Freddie Krueger running around with a knitting needle here.

As with all cases in law and in life the appropriate punishments should be meated out on the facts in the case. That's why we have courts.

Blanket bigotry on an internet forum is not going to produce an acceptable mandatory sentencing guideline.

Also the title of this thread is heavily biased.

The sooner this country pulls its head out of its ass the better. Sending women to England is NOT taking the moral highground. It's ABONDONING a section of society to unwarranted shame and secrecy when these vunerable women need support.

Acacia

taconnol wrote: »

This is symptomatic of the bizarre attitude we have in Ireland towards mental health. If someone hurts their arm, they go to the doctor so why not with a mental problem?

That's what I'm saying. Some people (not anyone here, just speaking from experience) seem to think that mental health problems aren't actual problems, just a case of 'people needing to cop themselves on'. The attitude to mental health issues here is a disgrace. But that's for another thread.

My point is a woman with mental health issues has , or should have, as much right to an abortion as one with physical problems ( if we're using health as a reason for abortions.)