What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

ntlbell

axel rose wrote: »

wow...I wonder how many of our anti abortion posters have actually been in the position of chosing whether or not to have an abortion. How many of our posters have organised adoptions for themselves?
Yea making something illegal really solves the problem :rolleyes:. Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

Have you ever owned a gun?

ever been in a position to shoot? no?

hmm

ntlbell

ebmma wrote: »

I agree with 24 weeks threshold for terminations.

what happens in the 24th week you're ok with that doesn't happen in the 23rd?

ntlbell

Acacia wrote: »

Would you honestly have a rape victim jailed just because she couldn't bear to carry her attacker's child?

I know it's not the baby's fault, but it's not the mother's either. She didn't give consent to have the child, to carry it and give birth to it. Why should she have to go through that, effectively ruining her life, just because some sicko raped her? In my mind, that's like punishing her for his crime.

It's not as easy as saying ''oh, just have it adopted''. The woman would still have to carry and give birth to a child she doesn't want and has no choice in having. And live with the fact that there is a connection to her rapist out there somewhere, who could try and find her in the future.



Why not mental health issues? Are they not real problems?

What if the woman is suicidal?

Yes I would, the victim's issue is she has been raped that's what will ruin her life if she allows it to.

now she has a chance not to ruin someone elses life by murdering someone else.

i can understand it would be very difficult, no one is saying it would be easy.

Mr. Incognito

Ntl,

why do you need three posts there

Quote:
Originally Posted by axel rose
wow...I wonder how many of our anti abortion posters have actually been in the position of chosing whether or not to have an abortion. How many of our posters have organised adoptions for themselves?
Yea making something illegal really solves the problem . Punishing desperate women is even more appropiate.........

Have you ever owned a gun?

ever been in a position to shoot? no?

hmm

That makes no sense.

Your views make me very uneasy and your arguments are extreme and totally disproportionate.

You are opposed to abortion, fair enough, but invoking terms like murder and putting it on extremes like "flushing it down the toilet" are neither sensitive, rational or civilised in a debate about items that are extremely personal and need to be treated with the greatest of respect. The thing you do not seem to realise is that everyone's views are just as valid as yours. Branding people murderers and comparing abortion to shooting someone is nonsensical.

To use your analogy have you ever owned a gun above, you and I, as men, are never going to be put in the position, personally, of making this decision and that's also why I find your extreme views a little unnerving.

Perhaps, if we have another constitutional referendum on this we should only allow women to vote. I wonder what the result would be then.

ntlbell

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ntl,

why do you need three posts there



That makes no sense.

Your views make me very uneasy and your arguments are extreme and totally disproportionate.

You are opposed to abortion, fair enough, but invoking terms like murder and putting it on extremes like "flushing it down the toilet" are neither sensitive, rational or civilised in a debate about items that are extremely personal and need to be treated with the greatest of respect. The thing you do not seem to realise is that everyone's views are just as valid as yours. Branding people murderers and comparing abortion to shooting someone is nonsensical.

To use your analogy have you ever owned a gun above, you and I, as men, are never going to be put in the position, personally, of making this decision and that's also why I find your extreme views a little unnerving.

Perhaps, if we have another constitutional referendum on this we should only allow women to vote. I wonder what the result would be then.

it makes perfect sense, I don't need to be in a position to know if something imo is right or wrong.

people don't like the terms murder flusing down the toilet etc because it doesn't sit well with them well i'm sorry, for me that's the reality of the situation and if it doesn't sit well with someone then they need to ask themselves why.

I wasn't in the position but I did get a girl pregnant when we were both in our early teens with our whole lives ahead of us so the choice was in front of "us"

it's not easy when it's on your door step.

no one ever said it was

speedboatchase

Hand them an unwanted baby

Acacia

ntlbell wrote: »

Yes I would, the victim's issue is she has been raped that's what will ruin her life if she allows it to.

now she has a chance not to ruin someone elses life by murdering someone else.

i can understand it would be very difficult, no one is saying it would be easy.

I see where you're coming from but-

The pregnancy could be seen as a continuation of the rape which ruins her life.
I don't see how she is ruining the baby's life, since it doesn't have a life as such ( without getting into an argument about cut-off points and where does life begin.)

The mother's physical and mental wellbeing would be the top priority in my mind in such a case. I would be more concerned about a woman who has already been traumatized than what is essentially a clump of cells. Especially, if we were talking about younger women , aged 12, 13, 14, who have been abused and are little more than children themselves.

I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine, I just don't think we'll agree on this, tbh.

Mr. Incognito

I wasn't in the position but I did get a girl pregnant when we were both in our early teens with our whole lives ahead of us so the choice was in front of "us"

it's not easy when it's on your door step.

And you kept the child?

My son's 4 today so I hear where you are coming from but

people don't like the terms murder flusing down the toilet etc because it doesn't sit well with them well i'm sorry, for me that's the reality of the situation and if it doesn't sit well with someone then they need to ask themselves why.

They don't sit well with me and I'll tell you why. Abortion is illegal in Ireland, fair enough but we are one of the few modern societies where this is the case. When you invoke images of murder and flushing down the toilet you are using shocking mental images to re-enforce your argument. If the argument is sound you should not need the shock tactics. Abortionists do not flush foetuses down the toilet, it's the image of uncaring and unfeeling monsters you are trying to create and this is a fallacy. It is not the "reality" of the situation. It is a lie.

For a lot of women abortion is a traumatic experience that can scar them for life. Calling them murderers is as unhuman as you are trying to paint medical professionals who are operating within the law in other countries and in the main are trying to help these women. There are literally thousands of women, our sisters, daughters and mothers travelling to England every year for abortions and are met with stigmatism and shame in this country. It doesn't sit well with me that you are sitting in your ivory tower ignoring these women because they don't happen to agree with your views. That's not compassion. It's ignorance.

I'm not trying to personally attack you but you are a representative of a view I am opposed to. I personally had my son, fair enough but this gives me no moral authority to tell others what to do. I agree that people should have the choice and we should have procedures in place to support that choice whatever it is.

ntlbell

Acacia wrote: »

I see where you're coming from but-

The pregnancy could be seen as a continuation of the rape which ruins her life.
I don't see how she is ruining the baby's life, since it doesn't have a life as such ( without getting into an argument about cut-off points and where does life begin.)

The mother's physical and mental wellbeing would be the top priority in my mind in such a case. I would be more concerned about a woman who has already been traumatized than what is essentially a clump of cells. Especially, if we were talking about younger women , aged 12, 13, 14, who have been abused and are little more than children themselves.

I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine, I just don't think we'll agree on this, tbh.

I don't really see why it should come to this tho

What's the time on the morning after pill? 72 hours?

surly between the rape and the 72 hour window the morning after pill could be obtained?

ntlbell

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

And you kept the child?

My son's 4 today so I hear where you are coming from but

We kept the child yes. This doesn't give me any moral high ground but bandishing around "you've never been in a position so you don't know" is nonsense is something is right or wrong it doesn't matter if i've been in the position or not to have an opinion on it.

A friend of mine is currently serving time for muder, he shot and killed a man who was "interfering" with a family member, now I can say if I was in his shoes I probably would of done the same or at the very least beat him to an inch of his life and probably removed his special place...

was he right? no. should be in prison for murder? damn right.

would i be in the right? hell no.

how can i say such a thing without ever been in his shoes?

this thinking is flawed and that was my point.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

They don't sit well with me and I'll tell you why. Abortion is illegal in Ireland, fair enough but we are one of the few modern societies where this is the case. When you invoke images of murder and flushing down the toilet you are using shocking mental images to re-enforce your argument. If the argument is sound you should not need the shock tactics. Abortionists do not flush foetuses down the toilet, it's the image of uncaring and unfeeling monsters you are trying to create and this is a fallacy. It is not the "reality" of the situation. It is a lie.

For a lot of women abortion is a traumatic experience that can scar them for life. Calling them murderers is as unhuman as you are trying to paint medical professionals who are operating within the law in other countries and in the main are trying to help these women. There are literally thousands of women, our sisters, daughters and mothers travelling to England every year for abortions and are met with stigmatism and shame in this country. It doesn't sit well with me that you are sitting in your ivory tower ignoring these women because they don't happen to agree with your views. That's not compassion. It's ignorance.

I'm not trying to personally attack you but you are a representative of a view I am opposed to. I personally had my son, fair enough but this gives me no moral authority to tell others what to do. I agree that people should have the choice and we should have procedures in place to support that choice whatever it is.

I have compassion for them, I have compassion for someone who might murder someone defending their home, I have compassion for junkies who got caught up in the wrong place wrong time and may have killed for a disgusting drug habbit, I have compassion for rape victims, I have compassion for people who decide to have abortion and live with that choice for the rest of their lives...

but my compassion for the people and the circumstances is not relevant.

Mr. Incognito

have compassion for them, I have compassion for someone who might murder someone defending their home, I have compassion for junkies who got caught up in the wrong place wrong time and may have killed for a disgusting drug habbit, I have compassion for rape victims, I have compassion for people who decide to have abortion and live with that choice for the rest of their lives...

Are you equating ladies who have abortions with murderers & junkies?
This is the point I am making. You are not re-enforcing your views or provide a credible argument that can be examined. You are just dealing out negative mental images that in your own words are not relevant.

but my compassion for the people and the circumstances is not relevant.

Aha! But it is. You are advocating a view that abortion is wrong, and murder. Full stop.

The circumstances are of Paramount importance and of even more importance is your COMPASSION, for these people as that will dictate how you treat them. If you have "branded" these ladies are murder's and uncaring monsters flushing foetus then it's rather hard to feel compassion for them, but these are people and cannot all be filed away under a common blanket as every woman and every circumstance is different and you are shutting the door to help and options blindly to them all.

Sadly your view is the law of this country, I would argue that if we had more compassion for people it might not be.

Anyway, it would be good if you could articulate why you think abortion is wrong in every circumstance without resorting to flawed and irrelevant mental images and we'll have a debate on that.

ntlbell

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Are you equating ladies who have abortions with murderers & junkies?
This is the point I am making. You are not re-enforcing your views or provide a credible argument that can be examined. You are just dealing out negative mental images that in your own words are not relevant.

What I'm saying is I have compassion for all of the above but that doesn't change my opinion on how they should be punished.

You assume I have no compassion for them and that's WHY I want them punished which is not the case, clearly.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Aha! But it is. You are advocating a view that abortion is wrong, and murder. Full stop.

The circumstances are of Paramount importance and of even more importance is your COMPASSION, for these people as that will dictate how you treat them. If you have "branded" these ladies are murder's and uncaring monsters flushing foetus then it's rather hard to feel compassion for them, but these are people and cannot all be filed away under a common blanket as every woman and every circumstance is different and you are shutting the door to help and options blindly to them all.

Sadly your view is the law of this country, I would argue that if we had more compassion for people it might not be.

Anyway, it would be good if you could articulate why you think abortion is wrong in every circumstance without resorting to flawed and irrelevant mental images and we'll have a debate on that.

The cicrumstances are only important to the type of punishment.

it's eithier right or wrong how it happened or the circumstances involved should only come into it at the time of handing down a punishment.

example a rape victim against someone who wants to terminate (hows that?) for the sake of moving up the ladder in her career or whatever. the rape victim should be dealt with differently but it is what it is the result is the same the circumstanes are different.

it's nothing to do with compassion I have compassion for them that doesn't mean they should not be punished.

I have compassion for a homeless person who goes to prison trying to shoplift his dinner, the circumstances or his circumstances don't cancel out the crime? you understand this right?

The Corinthian

ntlbell wrote: »

so it's something that can be flushed down the toilet until there some sort of brain activity?

I know quite a few people who would qualify for a flushing then.

ntlbell wrote: »

where do you define the start of life?

I think that's the wrong question. Sperm is alive, as are eggs, but even the Roman Catholic Church does not claim that they are 'people', and I think this is part of the problem with the debate that we cannot even define it, let alone argue on it. Is it a question of biology? Sentience? A soul?

Another problem with this issue is that even if we were to decide upon a principle for criteria, it's application is another matter. Science is not a perfect tool for this, and has frequently been revised. After all, science has been used at different stages in history to define others as not strictly human or otherwise undeserving, with slavery, women's subjugation and eugenics having been justified by the science of their time.

On the question of legal abortion, I've just never been terribly comfortable with the fact that the definition is so arbitrary. At 24 weeks (a figure that was decided through committees) it becomes a person. At 23 weeks, six days and 23 hours it's just cells. Go figure.

Thaedydal wrote: »

The morning after pill aka the emergency contraceptive pill does not cause an abortion to occur
if it did then it would be illegal in this country and it's not.

Depends. If the pill is designed to prevent ovulation or fertilization then it is still a contraceptive measure. If, on the other hand, it is designed to prevent post-fertilization implantation, then it is no longer a contraceptive (as conception has taken place) and does become a method of abortion.

m83 wrote: »

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

Working from the assumption that it is a baby, i.e. a human being, the baby didn't rape her, so it is not culpable. Regardless, one has to consider then that then you need to weigh up the rights of two supposedly equal individuals. Were we to do that, we cannot argue that the right for one person to avoid trauma supersedes the right of another to live. Of course, it's not that simple either, as one could use that same argument to force a compatible doner to give a non-critical organ to another person. Additionally, the right to life is not sacrosanct either, as much as we'd like to think it is. Society sanctions revocations of this right in the shape of war and capital punishment, all the time. Complex question, either way.

Acacia wrote: »

What if the woman is suicidal?

Can I have all my debts wiped if I say I'm suicidal? Why don't we release all those people in prison who are suicidal?

CathyMoran wrote: »

It should never be the woman who has the abortion who is punished, only the people who do it.

Depends. Some women have abortions like others have fillings. Others are scarred for the rest of their lives.

Legally speaking, Irish law lost the moral high ground a while back on this issue. Abortion in Ireland is illegal, but women have a constitutional right to travel to another country to have an abortion. Go figure - it's like making paedophilia illegal and then giving pervs a constitutional right to travel to Bangkok.

So regardless of one's view, I don't think Irish law has the moral high ground to preach.

Nevyn

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

There are literally thousands of women, our sisters, daughters and mothers travelling to England every year for abortions and are met with stigmatism and shame in this country. It doesn't sit well with me that you are sitting in your ivory tower ignoring these women because they don't happen to agree with your views. That's not compassion. It's ignorance.

That statics are somewhere between 5,000 and 7,000 women a year.
Some women will not given an irish address when in the uk and will use a friends so they are not counted and countries other then the UK don't furnish thier records to the IFPA.

Number of women travelling to England and Wales for Abortions falls significantly - IFPA says Women now Going elsewhere in EU

Release date: 04 July 2006

The Irish Family Planning Association has said that abortion figures released today by the UK Department of Health Statistics Office reflect the fact that Irish women are now travelling elsewhere in Europe to access termination services.

According to the statistics, a total of 5,585 women resident in Ireland travelled to Britain for terminations in 2005. This represents a reduction of 632 on the previous year.

According to the IFPA’s Director of Counselling Services, Rosie Toner, “We welcome the drop which represents the most significant year-on-year change in abortion statistics and the lowest figure since 1997 (5,340). However, it is important to note that these figures are not an accurate reflection of the numbers of women who travel abroad to access termination services.

“The number of women attending our post-abortion medical services and counselling, who indicate that they had terminations in other EU states, such as Holland, Spain and Belgium has grown very significantly in the past 18 months.

“The Euro-Sterling difference now makes accessing terminations in England very expensive. Access to the internet as well as cheaper and more frequent airfares around Europe have made travelling beyond England a real option for women.

“The most significant drop recorded was in the 20 – 30 age-group, and this would probably represent the most mobile and flexible age group. The only increase in the numbers travelling from Ireland took place in the 40+ age-bracket.

“The statistics also indicate a small rise in the number of women travelling from Ireland who had terminations by nine-weeks of gestation. This rise shows that when women have the choice of an early termination, they will opt for it. Of course, early medical abortions are difficult for Irish woman because of the travel issue,” added Rosie Toner.

The Irish abortion situation will be the focus of a number of cases before the European Court of Human Rights in the next few years. Given that Ireland’s ban on abortion does not stop women from terminating the pregnancy the IFPA call on Political parties to consider this as they prepare for next years general election

Nevyn

ntlbell wrote: »

I don't really see why it should come to this tho

What's the time on the morning after pill? 72 hours?

surly between the rape and the 72 hour window the morning after pill could be obtained?

It doesn't always happen and it can before a range of reasons.

• the person going into shock and denial,
• to not having the money to get it,
• or being unable to get an appointment,
• or being able to arrange to travel to an appointment.

Life just is not that black and white.

thebman

ntlbell wrote: »

so it's something that can be flushed down the toilet until there some sort of brain activity?

No, think of the plumbing problems that would cause :eek:

Mr. Incognito

The cicrumstances are only important to the type of punishment.

it's eithier right or wrong how it happened or the circumstances involved should only come into it at the time of handing down a punishment.

example a rape victim against someone who wants to terminate (hows that?) for the sake of moving up the ladder in her career or whatever. the rape victim should be dealt with differently but it is what it is the result is the same the circumstanes are different.

it's nothing to do with compassion I have compassion for them that doesn't mean they should not be punished.

I have compassion for a homeless person who goes to prison trying to shoplift his dinner, the circumstances or his circumstances don't cancel out the crime? you understand this right?

You've lost me.

Anyway, it would be good if you could articulate why you think abortion is wrong in every circumstance without resorting to flawed and irrelevant mental images and we'll have a debate on that.

This is my quesiton and you're talking about punishment and homeless people shoplifting. Try again.

On the question of legal abortion, I've just never been terribly comfortable with the fact that the definition is so arbitrary. At 24 weeks (a figure that was decided through committees) it becomes a person. At 23 weeks, six days and 23 hours it's just cells. Go figure.

I think this is the time that the nervous system develops. That was the approach taken.

Legally speaking, Irish law lost the moral high ground a while back on this issue. Abortion in Ireland is illegal, but women have a constitutional right to travel to another country to have an abortion. Go figure - it's like making paedophilia illegal and then giving pervs a constitutional right to travel to Bangkok.

So regardless of one's view, I don't think Irish law has the moral high ground to preach.
Today 11:10

I agree. But no political party has the balls to stand up and make this a real issue.

Nevyn

The Corinthian wrote: »

On the question of legal abortion, I've just never been terribly comfortable with the fact that the definition is so arbitrary. At 24 weeks (a figure that was decided through committees) it becomes a person. At 23 weeks, six days and 23 hours it's just cells. Go figure.

That is something which is currently under review in the UK and in other countries esp as neo natal care for premature babies see those 'born' at 22 weeks having a vast amount of medical intervention to keep the 'baby' alive.

Wether that amount of medical intervention is a good thing or not is another debate.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Depends. If the pill is designed to prevent ovulation or fertilization then it is still a contraceptive measure. If, on the other hand, it is designed to prevent post-fertilization implantation, then it is no longer a contraceptive (as conception has taken place) and does become a method of abortion.

Medically and legally what the M.A.P./EC does is not abortion.

ChocolateSauce

I think the penalty should apply only to the doctor for performing a procedure he was not licensed to do. Hypothetically. I of course support abortion on demand.

ntlbell

Thaedydal wrote: »

It doesn't always happen and it can before a range of reasons.

• the person going into shock and denial,
• to not having the money to get it,
• or being unable to get an appointment,
• or being able to arrange to travel to an appointment.

Life just is not that black and white.

not been able to see any doctor or any familiy health clinic in 72 hours anywhere in there county? really? this is a real problem?

is there something wrong with the bus service?

as for money i know people who got the money from their local releaving officer from the social?

get a loan?

medical card?

etc

the amount of people who can't do one of the above should be pretty small if any

CathyMoran

My logic behind only agreeing to abortion if the physical or fertility of the mother is affected is that mental illness can be treated, even if in the extreme cases that involves sectioning the mother until she has her baby. I am not in any way trying to belittle mental illness.

andrewh5

m83 wrote: »

But it still terminates a would be pregnancy, if i'm not mistaken.

The morning after pill prevents implantation and causes the womb to contract, thus expelling the fertilised egg. The inter-uterine device (coil) also prevents implantation.

tallaght01

The OP asked what the penalty for illegal abortions should be, and it's a tough question.

I reckon suspension of the doctor's medical degree would be enough as a deterrent. In terms of punitive justice, the point could be debated. But most docs won't do something that will endanger their right to practise.

I think it's a bit of a moot point, though. I'm against abortions meself, but I still think we may aswell legalise them if we're allowed give out information about abortions in England.

The whole thing just seems silly to me.

tallaght01

CathyMoran wrote: »

My logic behind only agreeing to abortion if the physical or fertility of the mother is affected is that mental illness can be treated, even if in the extreme cases that involves sectioning the mother until she has her baby. I am not in any way trying to belittle mental illness.

Lots of mental illness is intractable, though.

metrovelvet

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The circumstances are of Paramount importance and of even more importance is your COMPASSION, for these people as that will dictate how you treat them. If you have "branded" these ladies are murder's and uncaring monsters flushing foetus then it's rather hard to feel compassion for them, but these are people and cannot all be filed away under a common blanket as every woman and every circumstance is different and you are shutting the door to help and options blindly to them all.

.

My compassion for women who have abortions depends on many things, the circumstances around the abortion, the remorse she shows, how many she has had before, but my compassion for the victim of the abortion will always supercede my compassion for the women who seeks one out.

Of courses the justice system must be tempered by the circumstances of the crime.

Nevyn

ntlbell wrote: »

not been able to see any doctor or any familiy health clinic in 72 hours anywhere in there county? really? this is a real problem?

Yes, many drs will not dispense the morning after pill,
getting to one which will and can give an appointment is a problem in several parts of the country.

Haivng been wro in college I still to this day get emails and phone calls from people who know me and know someone who is desperately trying to find a dr down the country to see them to get the morning after pill.

ntlbell wrote: »

is there something wrong with the bus service?

Have you idea how bad the lack of bus services are in parts of the country ?

ntlbell wrote: »

as for money i know people who got the money from their local releaving officer from the social?

Again that takes time and most will not give money for that.

ntlbell wrote: »

get a loan?

I know women who have had to do that, to go their friends and try find the money needed. Yes it is a lot less costly then having to go for a termination
but not every woman thinks head about having a EC fund just in case.

ntlbell wrote: »

medical card?

Lots of people who are living week to week and students don't have a medical card.

ntlbell wrote: »

the amount of people who can't do one of the above should be pretty small if any

Again you have a very black and white view of the world.

ntlbell

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes, many drs will not dispense the morning after pill,
getting to one which will and can give an appointment is a problem in several parts of the country.

Haivng been wro in college I still to this day get emails and phone calls from people who know me and know someone who is desperately trying to find a dr down the country to see them to get the morning after pill.




Have you idea how bad the lack of bus services are in parts of the country ?



Again that takes time and most will not give money for that.



I know women who have had to do that, to go their friends and try find the money needed. Yes it is a lot less costly then having to go for a termination
but not every woman thinks head about having a EC fund just in case.



Lots of people who are living week to week and students don't have a medical card.




Again you have a very black and white view of the world.

I just find it hard to understand how it's easier to get a flight or a boat to the uk pay for an abortion etc than get the morning after pill?

I can't recall being in any part of ireland and having to wait longer than 3 days for a bus....if this was the case maybe thumb a lift? get a taxi?

I walked in off the street into the first chemist i seen on a sunday morning and purchsed it over the counter with no perescption in the waterford with a bit of talking and explaining.

there's always a way and in the cases there isn't should be few and far between

you seem to be concentrating on the ways not to be able to get it instead of the ways to get it.

tallaght01

Doctors don't prescribe the morning after pill??

People should report their doc if they do that and don't provide an alternative.

CathyMoran

I know someone who will not even prescribe the pill as it is against her morals...I thought that they had a right to do that?

tallaght01

CathyMoran wrote: »

I know someone who will not even prescribe the pill as it is against her morals...I thought that they had a right to do that?

You only have a right to refuse if you can provide an immediate alternative (eg if one of the other docs in the practise will prescribe it).

Unless things have changed recently in Irish medical law (I currently work in Oz).

CathyMoran

Yes, she will refer you to her locum - I still think that it is crazy though.

Nevyn

ntlbell wrote: »

I just find it hard to understand how it's easier to get a flight or a boat to the uk pay for an abortion etc than get the morning after pill?

I don't think it is easier but again denial and shock and praying it wont' happen and that if it turns out the woman is pregnant then there are several weeks in which she can sort money to travel for a termination.

ntlbell wrote: »

I can't recall being in any part of ireland and having to wait longer than 3 days for a bus....if this was the case maybe thumb a lift? get a taxi?

Again dr offices do not often open at the weekend so yes it is possible for that deadline to run out. Esp if the woman can't get help or support for what ever reasons.

ntlbell wrote: »

I walked in off the street into the first chemist i seen on a sunday morning and purchsed it over the counter with no perescption in the waterford with a bit of talking and explaining.

The chemist is taking a considerable risk doing that and some down the country do not stock the M.A.P. and I would consider one who gave it to a man for a woman they have not seen and questioned about thier medical history or about what medications she is already on to be irresponsible.

ntlbell wrote: »

there's always a way and in the cases there isn't should be few and far between

If a person is not in shock and is damned determined they can.

I know of one woman who had to keep her kids out of school and take them on the bus to Dublin to get the M.A.P. and then go and try get money from
the hardship fund from the social welfare officer the next day as other wise she would not have enough money to feed the kids for the week.

ntlbell wrote: »

you seem to be concentrating on the ways not to be able to get it instead of the ways to get it.

It is not available enough. Ideally we should have better access to it and to all contraception and contraception knowledge to prevent unwanted pregnancy. An ounce of prevention is better then a pound of cure.

Nevyn

tallaght01 wrote: »

Doctors don't prescribe the morning after pill??

People should report their doc if they do that and don't provide an alternative.

Some times that alternative is a dr two towns over who's surgery won't be open over the weekend.

tallaght01

CathyMoran wrote: »

Yes, she will refer you to her locum - I still think that it is crazy though.

As long as the locum is present at the time, then that's OK. I mean it's not ideal, but it's workable.

Just as a doctor's morals shouldn't determine the healthcare of the population, a doctor shouldn't be forced to do something they find morally reprehensible in a non-urgent setting.

tallaght01

Thaedydal wrote: »

Some times that alternative is a dr two towns over who's surgery won't be open over the weekend.

Well, that's failure of duty to care, and is reportable. Unless, like I said, things have changed recently.

ntlbell

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't think it is easier but again denial and shock and praying it wont' happen and that if it turns out the woman is pregnant then there are several weeks in which she can sort money to travel for a termination.



Again dr offices do not often open at the weekend so yes it is possible for that deadline to run out. Esp if the woman can't get help or support for what ever reasons.



The chemist is taking a considerable risk doing that and some down the country do not stock the M.A.P. and I would consider one who gave it to a man for a woman they have not seen and questioned about thier medical history or about what medications she is already on to be irresponsible.



If a person is not in shock and is damned determined they can.

I know of one woman who had to keep her kids out of school and take them on the bus to Dublin to get the M.A.P. and then go and try get money from
the hardship fund from the social welfare officer the next day as other wise she would not have enough money to feed the kids for the week.




It is not available enough. Ideally we should have better access to it and to all contraception and contraception knowledge to prevent unwanted pregnancy. An ounce of prevention is better then a pound of cure.

So if it happens on a friday evening just after the doc leaves.

The busses stop running till tuesday...

no other doc anywhere in the country can see you till tuesday.

be in shock and denial.

have no releaving officer willing to help.

have no friends willing to borrow.

have no car

no taxi's running..

that's some serious bad luck on top of your worsening situation.

these cases would be as i said few and far between the chances of all this coming together to prevent you from doing something is very rare i'd say

it's irrelvant if what the chemist did was right or wrong the point is where there's a will there;s a way.

CathyMoran

She isnt and does not know us as well as our doctor does...she is old school catholic, even thinks that the condom is wrong even in situations where the health of the mother would be at risk if she got pregnant (she thinks that the rythm method is fine, even in those with uneven cycles). But that is a rant for another day. I imagine that there are a lot of doctors out there like her. Getting the map is not easy.

Nevyn

As for the punishment or prosecution of those who preform illegal abortions in this country;
I have never heard of a case.

I have heard of people being arrested but never of a case which has gone before the courts,
maybe someone else has and can enlighten me.

I do know that there have been women who have been rushed into hospital
after one due to complications both during an induced miscarriage
( the rise of the use of the illegally obtained abortion pill is very concerning) or
directly afterward or from needing to be treated for infection but none of them
has ever been charged to my knowledge.

I do think that back street abortion is a hazard to women's health
I do know that it is on the rise with the number of emigrants in the country
who can not legally leave the country.

https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2005/mar/13/illegal-abortion-pill-on-the-black-market-in-dubli/

Illegal 'abortion pill' on the black market in Dublin city
Sarah McInerney
THE illegal sale of a controversial "abortion pill" on the black market in Dublin's city centre is being investigated by the state's drug licensing body, the Irish Medicines Board.

A spokeswoman for the board said it had become aware of the illegal sale in Ireland of the drug RU-486 and had "been involved in a number of investigations in the Moore Street area into this illegal practice".

It is believed the pills are being smuggled into Ireland from China and are being made available to pregnant immigrant Chinese women who are unable to leave Ireland for abortions in England.

RU-486 is a controversial abortion medication which can be taken up to nine weeks into a pregnancy. It must be taken with another drug, methotrexate, in order for the abortion to be successful. Methotrexate can be attained on prescription in Ireland to treat stomach ulcers.

According to the Marie Stopes Reproductive Choices Centre, there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that both Irish and immigrant women have used this drug in attempted abortions.

Alison Begas, chief executive of the Well Woman Clinic, said that the organisation is aware of a number of cases in which Chinese women have procured "generic versions" of RU-486 from the black market in Dublin.

"We would be aware that certain knock-off Chinese versions of the drug have been available on Moore Street and O'Connell Street, " she said. "It is being sold in Ireland as the abortion pill. I would stress the inherent risks of any woman taking the drug."

The chief executive of the Irish Family Planning Clinic, Niall Behan, said that the IFPA had also come across considerable anecdotal evidence of RU-486 being obtained and used in Ireland.

"We've heard anecdotally of cases where this is being ordered on the internet, " he said. "Although it is safe to use under medical supervision, it's very dangerous otherwise."

Dorene McCarthy, director of the Marie Stopes Reproductive Choices Centre said that they had been contacted by "a considerable amount of Chinese girls" who had resorted to using abortion medication.

"A lot of them have sent for abortion 'remedies' from their mothers in the post, " she said.

"We don't know what is in it.

We've had girls who have come back to us haemorrhaging from whatever they've taken."

A garda spokeswoman said she was unable to establish if there had been any further reported incidents of [the sale of RU-486]. "Having checked with our DVSAU (domestic violence and sexual assault unit) and our GNDU (garda national drug unit) there have been no instances of the drug RU-486 having been sold or seized here in Ireland, " she said.
March 13, 2005

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=7940

Concern on illegal Irish abortions

[Posted: Thu 28/07/2005]

By Niall Hunter-Editor

The Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA) has said the small drop in the number of Irish women going to Britain for abortions is most likely due to the high costs of having the procedure there.

And the IFPA has stressed that the latest abortion figures do not take account of the number of women who have had illegal abortions in Ireland.

An IFPA spokeswoman told irishhealth.com that recent anecdotal reports of 'backstreet' abortions in Ireland are an extremely worrying development, but not at all surprising, given that in any country where women's access to safe, legal abortion is denied, some women will seek to terminate their pregnancy by other means.

A total of 6,217 Irish women traveled to the UK for abortions in 2004, a drop of 103 on the figures for the previous year.

Women aged between 20 and 30 years represented the majority of those who travelled to Britain for abortions last year.

Rosie Toner, director of the IFPA's counseling services, said an increasing number of women attending the Association's post-abortion medical and counselling service had had their terminations in other European countries, including the Netherlands and Spain.

She said lower airfares and access to the internet has enabled Irish women to investigate other options outside of Britain.

The cost of a termination in the UK at present varies from £650 to £750 while the cost of an early abortion in Holland can be 250 or 300 euros less.

Even when travel and accommodation are taken into account it can still work out much cheaper to travel to other EU countries, according to the IFPA.

It says there is a real need for Irish statistics on abortion which indicate the number of women who access termination services within the EU, America and Russia; which are all locations that Irish women have been reported to travel to for abortions.

Ms Toner said unless we can develop a real picture of the numbers of women traveling for abortion services we will not be in a position to develop strategies and services that deal with the needs of women.

The IFPA said the fact that over 6,000 Irish women were traveling to Britain for abortions was further evidence of the need for domestic-based abortion services.

The Association suspects that some illegal abortions have taken place recently in Ireland but says it has it has no hard evidence of this.

It points out that in the past year the Gardai have found evidence of a return to illegal abortion, which has not been reported in Ireland since the 1950s. These terminations are believed to have taken place among the immigrant population, some of whom might face greater restrictions on travel and often lack funds, according to the Association.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=7940

tallaght01

ntlbell wrote: »

So if it happens on a friday evening just after the doc leaves.

The busses stop running till tuesday...

no other doc anywhere in the country can see you till tuesday.

be in shock and denial.

have no releaving officer willing to help.

have no friends willing to borrow.

have no car

no taxi's running..

that's some serious bad luck on top of your worsening situation.

these cases would be as i said few and far between the chances of all this coming together to prevent you from doing something is very rare i'd say

it's irrelvant if what the chemist did was right or wrong the point is where there's a will there;s a way.

One of the problems is that the morning after pill's effectiveness decreases as time goes by. So, ideally the girl wold have it within 12 hours. You can take it up to 72 hours after the ride, but it's less effective at that point. So quick access should be a priority, although in the grand scale of things I'm not sure how much of an overall healthcare priority this should be.

Nevyn

tallaght01 wrote: »

One of the problems is that the morning after pill's effectiveness decreases as time goes by. So, ideally the girl wold have it within 12 hours. You can take it up to 72 hours after the ride, but it's less effective at that point. So quick access should be a priority, although in the grand scale of things I'm not sure how much of an overall healthcare priority this should be.

http://www.ifpa.ie/eng/Info/Fact-sheets/Emergency-Contraception

HOW EFFECTIVE ARE EMERGENCY PILLS?
OF THE PREGNANCIES THAT COULD BE EXPECTED TO HAVE OCCURRED IF
NO EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION HAD BEEN USED THE EMERGENCY PILL
WILL PREVENT:
» Up to 95% if taken within 24 hours
» Up to 85% if taken between 25-48 hours
» Up to 58% if taken between 49-72 hours
So as you can see the earlier they are taken the more effective the
ECPs are and most effective if the pills are taken within 24 hours.

tallaght01

Thaedydal wrote: »

http://www.ifpa.ie/eng/Info/Fact-sheets/Emergency-Contraception

Yea, that's the point I was making.

There's other data for 12 hours, too, which is the optimal time.

But I always advise people to aim for at least the 24 hour point.

The Corinthian

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I think this is the time that the nervous system develops. That was the approach taken.

At exactly 24 weeks? In all cases? The criteria and it's application are actually two separate points, both of which I discussed. Even if you accept the criteria as the development of a nervous system, it's application is based upon an line in the sand that is derived from an estimate of an average, rounded to the nearest week.

This means that an abortion of a foetus / child can take place at 23 weeks, where the nervous system has already developed, or cannot at 24 weeks with another foetus / child who has yet to develop one. It's like deciding, based on statistics, that a life support system for a comatose patient should be switched off, rather than examining them.

Regardless of whether you accept the criteria or not, it seems a tad too arbitrary a means of deciding something as fundamental as the right to life.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Medically and legally what the M.A.P./EC does is not abortion.

I'm afraid that the jury (medical profession) is out on that one and as a result the topic is still being debated.

nacho libre

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

And you kept the child?

My son's 4 today so I hear where you are coming from but



They don't sit well with me and I'll tell you why. Abortion is illegal in Ireland, fair enough but we are one of the few modern societies where this is the case. When you invoke images of murder and flushing down the toilet you are using shocking mental images to re-enforce your argument. If the argument is sound you should not need the shock tactics. Abortionists do not flush foetuses down the toilet, it's the image of uncaring and unfeeling monsters you are trying to create and this is a fallacy. It is not the "reality" of the situation. It is a lie.

For a lot of women abortion is a traumatic experience that can scar them for life. Calling them murderers is as unhuman as you are trying to paint medical professionals who are operating within the law in other countries and in the main are trying to help these women. There are literally thousands of women, our sisters, daughters and mothers travelling to England every year for abortions and are met with stigmatism and shame in this country. It doesn't sit well with me that you are sitting in your ivory tower ignoring these women because they don't happen to agree with your views. That's not compassion. It's ignorance.

I'm not trying to personally attack you but you are a representative of a view I am opposed to. I personally had my son, fair enough but this gives me no moral authority to tell others what to do. I agree that people should have the choice and we should have procedures in place to support that choice whatever it is.

his/ her view seems entrenchant to you and extreme beacuse it's the clashing of irreconcilable viewpoints, some people, like this poster, view abortion as murder, therefore from their perspective there should be no choice involved- it's black and white no matter the circumstances

from your perspective you don't see abortion as murder therefore it's up to the individual to decide what to do.

ebmma

ntlbell wrote: »

what happens in the 24th week you're ok with that doesn't happen in the 23rd?

You know very well, that some sort of time needs to be decided on.
Like being 18 to drink. It is not a magic number it is just a convenient average.
Discussions of the sort 'what if it is a day less or a day more' are not productive.

So is playing on emotions and people's feelings by the way.

The Corinthian

nacho libre wrote: »

his/ her view seems entrenchant to you and extreme beacuse it's the clashing of irreconcilable viewpoints, some people, like this poster, view abortion as murder, therefore from their perspective there should be no choice involved- it's black and white no matter the circumstances

from your perspective you don't see abortion as murder therefore it's up to the individual to decide what to do.

Not sure if it is as black and white no matter the circumstances.

Remember, there is a third moral position that allows for the killing of one human being in certain circumstances. This might be for the greater good (e.g. war) or because it values one human being over another (e.g. a viable adult is more important than a non-viable foetus), or because for some reason a human being has forfeited their right to life (e.g. capital punishment) or to help/save them (e.g. modern euthanasia or historical burning of witches - which was seen as a means of redeeming their immortal souls).

In that moral framework, the debate of whether the foetus is a person or not is irrelevant. Killing it may be regrettable, but preferable to the alternative.

The Corinthian

ebmma wrote: »

You know very well, that some sort of time needs to be decided on.
Like being 18 to drink. It is not a magic number it is just a convenient average.
Discussions of the sort 'what if it is a day less or a day more' are not productive.

The right to drink is not exactly on a par with the right to life, and as such I'd question that you can apply the same logic in both cases.

tallaght01

nacho libre wrote: »

his/ her view seems entrenchant to you and extreme beacuse it's the clashing of irreconcilable viewpoints, some people, like this poster, view abortion as murder, therefore from their perspective there should be no choice involved- it's black and white no matter the circumstances

from your perspective you don't see abortion as murder therefore it's up to the individual to decide what to do.

If this thread was about abortion and it's rights and wrongs, then this would really be the important point to make.

I don't know how people can abort a foetus.

But there are reasonable people who share the opposite opinion.

I doubt people will ever reach a consensus.

ntlbell

ebmma wrote: »

You know very well, that some sort of time needs to be decided on.
Like being 18 to drink. It is not a magic number it is just a convenient average.
Discussions of the sort 'what if it is a day less or a day more' are not productive.

So is playing on emotions and people's feelings by the way.

so you think it's ok to have a convenently average time when we end a life?

do you know the differences between the 23rd and 24th week?

if you're unhappy at 24 why are you happy with 23?

CathyMoran

Argh, and why the term foetus, why cant we call it what it is - a baby? I cant agree with abortion at any stage, it goes against my conscience. Having said that, if we did not have it so readily available in the UK and say had to travel to the States I am not sure if my view point would remain the same. Anyone who treats an abortion lightly should be punished - it is not a means of contraception but those who do the abortions are always more responsible in my view point.

tallaght01

a foetus is the proper name for it, though.