What should the penalty be for illegal abortions?

willy wonka

You know the more I read through this thread the more disheartened I become.

A quote about the 24 weeks cut off point:

You know very well, that some sort of time needs to be decided on.
Like being 18 to drink. It is not a magic number it is just a convenient average.

Either that person is woefully misinformed or callously flippant

sam34

Sam Vimes wrote: »

the foetus is a human being and its right to life supersedes the woman's desire for good mental health

but you also say physical health. as i said, if the choice is between the life of the child and the mental health of the woman, the child wins but if it's between the life of the child and the life of the mother (ie she will die if she keeps the pregnancy), the mother wins

you do realise that mental illness can be fatal, dont you?
a woman's life can be in danger because of her mental health as well as because of poor physical health.

*i am not going to post my opinions on abortion. i am just trying to make a point, as on this thread people seem to think that the danger presented to a womans life by mental ill-health amounts to being unhappy/fed up.unable to cope.

Sam Vimes

sam34 wrote: »

you do realise that mental illness can be fatal, dont you?
a woman's life can be in danger because of her mental health as well as because of poor physical health.

well that's not the woman dying as a direct result of having the baby, she's dying because of a mental illness. people don't become mentally ill when they get pregnant, the illness must have already been there

but anyway that's irrelevant. abortion for medical reasons is a completely separate issue to abortion on demand. they are not the same thing and one cannot be used to justify the other

Sam Vimes

Sam Vimes wrote: »

on that point, pro abortionists say that the foetus is just a clump of cells, it's not a person so it's ok to kill it. if they really believe this, why is an abortion a traumatic event? why is it not like getting an ingrown toenail removed?

i think it's because deep down they know what they're doing is wrong but they put those thoughts out of their heads and convince themselves it's ok because they don't like the alternative.

just to pre-empt what i think will be the obvious answer to this question:

i think the answer will be that some people tell you it's wrong and make you feel guilty. but if you really, truly believe something it shouldn't matter what anyone else tells you

for example there are many people who tell me that sex before marriage is wrong so i simply ignore them and get on with my life. if someone else can make you feel guilty for something that you claim is not wrong, then imo you don't really believe what you're saying

sam34

Sam Vimes wrote: »

well that's not the woman dying as a direct result of having the baby, she's dying because of a mental illness. people don't become mentally ill when they get pregnant, the illness must have already been there

that is completely inaccurate.
any mental illness can begin during a pregnancy.
a pregnancy does not prevent mental illness for its duration.

Sam Vimes

sam34 wrote: »

that is completely inaccurate.
any mental illness can begin during a pregnancy.
a pregnancy does not prevent mental illness for its duration.

yes a mental illness can occur during pregnancy but that doesn't mean that it was caused by the pregnancy or that terminating the pregnancy will cure the illness

sam34

Sam Vimes wrote: »

yes a mental illness can occur during pregnancy but that doesn't mean that it was caused by the pregnancy or that terminating the pregnancy will cure the illness

either of those things can be the case, though.
not saying they will be valid in all cases, but they can be valid for some people.

Sam Vimes

sam34 wrote: »

either of those things can be the case, though.
not saying they will be valid in all cases, but they can be valid for some people.

ok so let's assume for a minute that pregnancy can cause mental illness and that that illness will in all cases be cured by having an abortion and cannot possibly be cured in any other way, i think it would be more acceptable. but in reality that scenario is so incredibly unlikely that it i think it's safe to say it will never occur and is so obscure that it's really irrelevant to a debate on whether abortion is ok or not. i can say abortion's ok in that case because it's never going to happen

sam34

Sam Vimes wrote: »

ok so let's assume for a minute that pregnancy can cause mental illness and that that illness will in all cases be cured by having an abortion and cannot possibly be cured in any other way, i think it would be more acceptable. but in reality that scenario is so incredibly unlikely that it i think it's safe to say it will never occur and is so obscure that it's really irrelevant to a debate on whether abortion is ok or not. i can say abortion's ok in that case because it's never going to happen

well, you can never say never (i agree the above scenario is unlikely, but its not impossible)

i guess i hijacked this a little, because i got annoyed at how easily some people dismiss mental illness, when the reality is that they havent a clue how severe and intractible and devastating mental illness can be. people often seem to think that it's "only" mild depression, but there are levels of mental ilness out there that most people in the general public cannot begin to conceptualise.

Sam Vimes

sam34 wrote: »

well, you can never say never (i agree the above scenario is unlikely, but its not impossible)

i guess i hijacked this a little, because i got annoyed at how easily some people dismiss mental illness, when the reality is that they havent a clue how severe and intractible and devastating mental illness can be. people often seem to think that it's "only" mild depression, but there are levels of mental ilness out there that most people in the general public cannot begin to conceptualise.

fair enough i see your point. people close to me have suffered mental illness so i know it's not a piece of cake

ntlbell

sam34 wrote: »

but there are levels of mental ilness out there that most people in the general public cannot begin to conceptualise.

Of course there is very serious mental illness with major chemical imbalances and need real care/drugs etc etc.

but there is also HUGE amount that are up to there eyes in anti d's handed out by GP's that have no expertise in the field with no evaluation from a psych, that have nothing wrong with them but self pitty and need a kick up the arse

all these people are diluting the seriousness of mental illness especially in the area of depression.

anyway that's another topic for another day.

willy wonka

Terodil wrote: »

*sigh* Read all 14 pages of posts and... /headdesk

1. All the pro-life guys in here... I doubt you can possibly imagine the pain an unwanted pregnancy can put a woman through, all your talk of mental health as if it's nothing is a clear testament to the total neglect of women beyond pure 'birth machines'.

Just for the record, I had a pregnancy scare a few years ago when I lived abroad and my boyfriend at the time pressured me into having an abortion eventhough I wouldn't consider it. I was under a lot of pressure at the time - young, miles from home, no real support network but I didnt bow to his pressure. Thankfully I wasnt pregnant but for a time believed I was (dodgy tests, missed periods, etc). It really wasn't an ideal situation, I don't know if I would call it 'unwanted' but to suggest that as a pro-lifer that I have never gone through this kind of emotional trauma is close-minded

I have personal expereience of mental health issues (without going into any great detail) and absolutely realise the gravity, despair and lack of control of such situations. I think Pro-choice people are as guilty of black&white vision as the pro-lifers

3. The psychological effects of an abortion are also totally neglected by the prolifers. It's not like spitting a chewing gum out; it has a very profound, and often traumatising, effect on the woman. Many bear the scars for the rest of their lives.

This is the whole point of the argument. Pro-lifers understand the gravity of the situation. They understand that it is a huge traumatising event. That is what the pro-lifers are arguing about.

And I agree with you about Education being key.

metrovelvet

I have to agree with the above post. IT is pretty condescending to assume that to be anti-abortion, pro life, whatever you want to call it, you have no understanding or experience of the issues at hand, that somehow the stance is naive and unenlightened.

Sam Vimes

metrovelvet wrote: »

I have to agree with the above post. IT is pretty condescending to assume that to be anti-abortion, pro life, whatever you want to call it, you have no understanding or experience of the issues at hand, that somehow the stance is naive and unenlightened.

you're right of course. the statement that we don't understand the mental anguish of someone who has an abortion is actually contradictory if you think about it. from our perspective the woman has just murdered her baby so of course we understand that she's not going to feel too good about it

ntlbell

metrovelvet wrote: »

I have to agree with the above post. IT is pretty condescending to assume that to be anti-abortion, pro life, whatever you want to call it, you have no understanding or experience of the issues at hand, that somehow the stance is naive and unenlightened.

If they start think pro lifer's are rational intelligent human beings they might be led down a road where the pro lifer might have some valid opinions.

it's easier to pass the pro lifer of as some idiotic moron with no clue so they can sit comfortably in there own little bubble without considering anyone else's opinion.

metrovelvet

Sam Vimes wrote: »

you're right of course. the statement that we don't understand the mental anguish of someone who has an abortion is actually contradictory if you think about it. from our perspective the woman has just murdered her baby so of course we understand that she's not going to feel too good about it

Right, and if it is so so bad for women, how could you actually support it as a choice? So... pregnancy causes mental health problems.... but so does abortion, which is also posited as the solution to the mental health problems pregnancy causes.

Sam Vimes

metrovelvet wrote: »

Right, and if it is so so bad for women, how could you actually support it as a choice? So... pregnancy causes mental health problems.... but so does abortion, which is also posited as the solution to the mental health problems pregnancy causes.

in fact the number of suicides post abortion is very high. which brings me back to the question of why that is, since there's supposed to be nothing wrong with removing a clump of cells.....


edit:this is no fun without someone to disagree with

ntlbell

Sam Vimes wrote: »

edit:this is no fun without someone to disagree with

stfu nub...;)

Mr. Incognito

well no-one was able to have a rational debate with either one of you so they left.

let me know when the tumbleweed turns up

tallaght01

Terodil wrote: »

You still haven't explained *why* your premise that *any* clump of cells (from the zygote onwards) *is* a human being in need of legal protection is more valid than the 'clump' premise. However I dare you do that before you 'shove laws down my throat', yes. Or do you think that a proper reasoning is too much to ask?

I guess this begs the question of when does it stop being OK to kill on the basis of not being fully developed.

Say, at about 4 or 5 weeks and the neural tube is developing, and the heart is starting to do it's thing. So, you have the early precursors of the circulatory system and the brain starting to function.

Now, the brain doesn't stop developing until into childhood, and the newborn heart can take a while to "normalise" from the fetal heart and circultion, to become a mature heart.

Newborn haemoglobin is also different, with a high proportion of Haemoglobin F.

Basically what I'm saying is that the newborn born at term is certainly not the finished article.

Thaedydal wrote: »

As for the mental and emotional trauma in countries which do not have the same stigma surrounding abortion or such a pro life culture women are not as traumatised by having an abortion unless they do want to continue the pregnancy but can't due to medical or other reasons.

Do we know this for sure? How do we measure the "culture", and have we standardised our assessment of women's trauma globally?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

people don't become mentally ill when they get pregnant, the illness must have already been there

Man, post-natal depression can literally be a killer. It really can. It may not come during pregnancy, but happens very soon afterwards. It's a really really horrible disease.

ntlbell wrote: »

but there is also HUGE amount that are up to there eyes in anti d's handed out by GP's that have no expertise in the field with no evaluation from a psych, that have nothing wrong with them but self pitty and need a kick up the arse

all these people are diluting the seriousness of mental illness especially in the area of depression.

.

I think YOU might be the one diluting the seriousness of mental illness with the assertion that there's A) huge amounts of timewasters being poorly managed in the community, with really no evidence to back the assertion up.

sassa

Abortions should be made legal in Ireland. while I would never have one myself who am I to deny someone else the right to make their own choice.
If it was legal there would be no back street abortionists that dont really give a damn about the girl and what she is going through at least if it was legal she could talk to a professional that can make her fully aware of the results of what she is about to do and talk her through all options available to her. I have to say idea that a woman that has an abortion should be charged with murder is completly ridiculous How many women actually look on abortion as a form of contraception (I'm not going to be naive because there have been studies done that show some do go through with abortion purely because they believe it a better choice than remembering a damn condom-though I doubt they used the term damn condom in their research;)) Most women that have abortions do so after much thought and will feel remorse afterwards and have to wonder "did I make the right choice" for the rest of their life to put these women in jail is just idiotic. What would be next up on the hit list? Could I face a manslaughter charge because I suffered a miscarriage?

Sam Vimes

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

well no-one was able to have a rational debate with either one of you so they left.

just to be sure in case it's just not coming across properly in text, is that a joke? i think i'm being perfectly reasonable and if someone can't debate me on it it's most likely because they can't support their case properly because they're wrong

Sam Vimes

sassa wrote: »

Abortions should be made legal in Ireland. while I would never have one myself who am I to deny someone else the right to make their own choice.
If it was legal there would be no back street abortionists that dont really give a damn about the girl and what she is going through at least if it was legal she could talk to a professional that can make her fully aware of the results of what she is about to do and talk her through all options available to her.

this exact point has already been covered. that only makes sense if you already think that there's nothing wrong with abortion. the point i made previously was:

if heroin was made legal no one would have to get it from back street dealers so it would be better quality and they'd be less likely to die. does that mean we should legalise heroin?

sassa wrote: »

I have to say idea that a woman that has an abortion should be charged with murder is completly ridiculous How many women actually look on abortion as a form of contraception (I'm not going to be naive because there have been studies done that show some do go through with abortion purely because they believe it a better choice than remembering a damn condom-though I doubt they used the term damn condom in their research;))

whether she mulled over it or did it willy nilly isn't really relevant. the fact is she did it

sassa wrote: »

Most women that have abortions do so after much thought and will feel remorse afterwards and have to wonder "did I make the right choice" for the rest of their life to put these women in jail is just idiotic. What would be next up on the hit list? Could I face a manslaughter charge because I suffered a miscarriage?

no of course you wouldn't face a man slaughter charge because a mis-carriage is completely outside your control. and the fact that they feel guilty doesn't mean they should never be punished for it. i'm sure lots of murderers and rapists feel guilty afterwards too


since you mention the fact that women feel remorse afterwards, could you answer the question i've been asking. why do they feel remorse? the stated position of pro abortionists is that the foetus is just a clump of cells and not a person. if they truly believe that, why do they feel remorse when they get an abortion but not when they get an ingrown toenail removed?

ntlbell

tallaght01 wrote: »

I
I think YOU might be the one diluting the seriousness of mental illness with the assertion that there's A) huge amounts of timewasters being poorly managed in the community, with really no evidence to back the assertion up.

There is a huge amount of time wasters. I know enough of them.
The evidence is there for everyone to see and for anyone to test for themselves.

go to your GP tell them your feeling down the last while you have lost interest in X,Y,Z walk out of the GP with script for mind altering drugs, no test no evaluation from someone who's actually qualified in the field to suggest you require a drug to correct an imbalance that might not be there

You're on cloud cuckoo land if you think the above doesn't happen, this country is a wash with people who have mistaken empty and unfulfilled lives that don't match up to their sense of entitlement or the nonsense they watch on television with depression.

There is a need out there and a complete lack of support for people who really need help in mental health and there is a lot of genuine cases but there is also a lot of people who just need to wake up to reality and GP's should start to be prosecuted for handing out these drugs willy nilly

Sam Vimes

tallaght01 wrote: »

Man, post-natal depression can literally be a killer. It really can. It may not come during pregnancy, but happens very soon afterwards. It's a really really horrible disease.

i know there's post natal depression but that happens after the birth and more importantly, having an abortion wouldn't cure it, which was the point of the argument

ntlbell

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

well no-one was able to have a rational debate with either one of you so they left.

let me know when the tumbleweed turns up

It seems people ran out of ways to make murdering sound fluffy.

sassa

my opinion is women that are facing the choice of an abortion know that it is more than just a clump of cells and this is something they tell themselves so they can be sure they made the right choice. When I was pregnant with my first daughter a friend suggested I should have an abortion. I was horrified by the thought as I knew this "clump of cells" was so much more, it's easier for people to consider abortion if they disassociate from the fact it is a life. As for why do they feel remorse afterwards who knows? who knows why women blame themselves when they have a miscarriage even when told it was out of their control but they do. There is no explanation. I was told by a doctor that my mc was down to the fact the embryo was not forming right. Even though I knew that and told my partner that I still blamed myself. I'd imagine the fact that the pregnancy hormones are still in your system wouldnt help much.
But thats why I think there needs to be better information provided to women so they don't feel a stigma about it if they chose it and are better informed on exactly how they will feel afterwards and receive the correct after care.

tallaght01

ntlbell wrote: »

There is a huge amount of time wasters. I know enough of them.
The evidence is there for everyone to see and for anyone to test for themselves.

go to your GP tell them your feeling down the last while you have lost interest in X,Y,Z walk out of the GP with script for mind altering drugs, no test no evaluation from someone who's actually qualified in the field to suggest you require a drug to correct an imbalance that might not be there

You're on cloud cuckoo land if you think the above doesn't happen, this country is a wash with people who have mistaken empty and unfulfilled lives that don't match up to their sense of entitlement or the nonsense they watch on television with depression.

There is a need out there and a complete lack of support for people who really need help in mental health and there is a lot of genuine cases but there is also a lot of people who just need to wake up to reality and GP's should start to be prosecuted for handing out these drugs willy nilly

There's an old saying in medicine that goes "The plural of anecdote is not evidence".

I think that applies perfectly here.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i know there's post natal depression but that happens after the birth and more importantly, having an abortion wouldn't cure it, which was the point of the argument

It happens as a direct result of the birth, though.

Well, I don't see how the fact that it occurs both after birth and (sometimes) post abortion is relevant.

But I'm happy as long as we're all acknowledging that mental illness can be as much of a struggle for mums as physical illness, especially if postpartum psychosis develops.

ntlbell

tallaght01 wrote: »

There's an old saying in medicine that goes "The plural of anecdote is not evidence".

I think that applies perfectly here.

here's a FACT.

GP's all over Ireland hand out Anti D's without consulting with a psych in fact without doing anything at all bar asking you a few questions.

This is very dangerous.

tallaght01

ntlbell wrote: »

here's a FACT.

GP's all over Ireland hand out Anti D's without consulting with a psych in fact without doing anything at all bar asking you a few questions.

This is very dangerous.

"Evidence"" is not the plural of "Anecdote" :pac:

Sam Vimes

tallaght01 wrote: »

Well, I don't see how the fact that it occurs both after birth and (sometimes) post abortion is relevant.

i think you missed the earlier bit. someone asked if it's ok to have an abortion to cure mental illness so i'm saying it would be very very rare to have a mental illness that can only be cured by having an abortion

sassa wrote: »

my opinion is women that are facing the choice of an abortion know that it is more than just a clump of cells and this is something they tell themselves so they can be sure they made the right choice. When I was pregnant with my first daughter a friend suggested I should have an abortion. I was horrified by the thought as I knew this "clump of cells" was so much more, it's easier for people to consider abortion if they disassociate from the fact it is a life. As for why do they feel remorse afterwards who knows?

you say "who knows" but you gave the answer earlier in your post. they feel guilty because they know deep down that it is actually more than a clump of cells despite what they try to convince themselves of

sassa wrote: »

But thats why I think there needs to be better information provided to women so they don't feel a stigma about it if they chose it and are better informed on exactly how they will feel afterwards and receive the correct after care.

but you see they should feel a stigma because a woman who has an abortion and feels any sense of remorse has just killed a child. what they did was wrong and they knew deep down that it was wrong but they did it anyway. i think they deserve all the stigma they get

sam34

ntlbell wrote: »

There is a huge amount of time wasters. I know enough of them.
The evidence is there for everyone to see and for anyone to test for themselves.

anecdotes and personal experience do not make relaible validated evidence


go to your GP tell them your feeling down the last while you have lost interest in X,Y,Z walk out of the GP with script for mind altering drugs, no test no evaluation from someone who's actually qualified in the field to suggest you require a drug to correct an imbalance that might not be there

ie go to your gp with symptoms suggestive of an illness and subsequently receive treatment for that illness? i dont see a problem with that. what test do you suggest GP's use? the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one, not a laboratory diagnosis. and many cases of depression can be successfully managed by GP's, without referral to psychiatry. the psych services are seriously over-burdened, there is no sense in sending every depressed or potentially depressed person in that direction... the psych services would collapse. it's unnecessary anyway. and gp's are qualified to prescribe psychotropic meds.

You're on cloud cuckoo land if you think the above doesn't happen, this country is a wash with people who have mistaken empty and unfulfilled lives that don't match up to their sense of entitlement or the nonsense they watch on television with depression.

there's some truth in that. some in the general public tend to equate feeling sad/fed up with clinical depression. that doesnt mean healthcare professionals do, though.

There is a need out there and a complete lack of support for people who really need help in mental health and there is a lot of genuine cases but there is also a lot of people who just need to wake up to reality and GP's should start to be prosecuted for handing out these drugs willy nilly

as a psychiatrist, i would much rather gp's err on the side of over-prescribing than under-prescribing.

i also dont think it is fair or accurate to say there is "a complete lack of support" for those with mental illness. the psych services are underfunded and under-resourced, certainly, yet they are one of the most accessible of medical services in the country.

sam34

ntlbell wrote: »

here's a FACT.

GP's all over Ireland hand out Anti D's without consulting with a psych in fact without doing anything at all bar asking you a few questions.

This is very dangerous.

GP's are qualified and entitled to prescribe without consulting psychiatrists.

and the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one... made on the basis of questions answered by the patient.

FACT :pac:

and i dont see how you can call it "very dangerous"

ntlbell

sam34 wrote: »

e go to your gp with symptoms suggestive of an illness and subsequently receive treatment for that illness? i dont see a problem with that. what test do you suggest GP's use? the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one, not a laboratory diagnosis. and many cases of depression can be successfully managed by GP's, without referral to psychiatry. the psych services are seriously over-burdened, there is no sense in sending every depressed or potentially depressed person in that direction... the psych services would collapse. it's unnecessary anyway. and gp's are qualified to prescribe psychotropic meds.




as a psychiatrist, i would much rather gp's err on the side of over-prescribing than under-prescribing.

i also dont think it is fair or accurate to say there is "a complete lack of support" for those with mental illness. the psych services are underfunded and under-resourced, certainly, yet they are one of the most accessible of medical services in the country.

losing interest in something and not feeling on top of the world does not equal having clinical depression. I would like to be asked questions you know anything before you put the pen to paper maybe ask about my diet? exercise? my social circle? anything to try and find out do i really require a mind altering drug or is this person really depressed if I'm a GP and I'm in anyway unsure I would pass them on to someone who is qualified and can ask the right questions and make the right call.


so you would prefer GP's handed out anti d's like smarties without asking any important question you just feel down and lost intest in your hobby well feck me you're brain is obviously lacking something here you go?

it's amazing that something like 1 in 4 in dublin suffer with some strange magical imbalance in the brain but every outside dublin ireland is 1 in 8 and above? are people in dublin unlucky with the chemical imbalances?

is it something in the air?

really?

ntlbell

sam34 wrote: »

GP's are qualified and entitled to prescribe without consulting psychiatrists.

and the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one... made on the basis of questions answered by the patient.

FACT :pac:

and i dont see how you can call it "very dangerous"

I would imagine people taken mind altering drugs when there not needed would not be a good thing?

what questions?

"whats wrong"

"i feel down and depressed"

"try these"

"they didnt work"

"ok try these"

very advanced techniques they have

johnnyskeleton

Sam Vimes wrote: »

since the last abortion thread :P

No, ever. There are only 2 threads with more replies, the prostitution and the christening ones. Both of which are long running threads. Humanities has never before seen this amount of traffic.









Don't leave!

Sam Vimes

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

No, ever. There are only 2 threads with more replies, the prostitution and the christening ones. Both of which are long running threads. Humanities has never before seen this amount of traffic.









Don't leave!

how did you verify that? did you just look back through the pages? because threads drop off the end after a while so you can't see them. it's just that the last thread went on for weeks and i was posting in it the whole time. i probably generated 20 pages all on my own

sam34

ntlbell wrote: »

losing interest in something and not feeling on top of the world does not equal having clinical depression. I would like to be asked questions you know anything before you put the pen to paper maybe ask about my diet? exercise? my social circle? anything to try and find out do i really require a mind altering drug or is this person really depressed if I'm a GP and I'm in anyway unsure I would pass them on to someone who is qualified and can ask the right questions and make the right call.


so you would prefer GP's handed out anti d's like smarties without asking any important question you just feel down and lost intest in your hobby well feck me you're brain is obviously lacking something here you go?

it's amazing that something like 1 in 4 in dublin suffer with some strange magical imbalance in the brain but every outside dublin ireland is 1 in 8 and above? are people in dublin unlucky with the chemical imbalances?

is it something in the air?

really?

sigh. subject low mood and lack of interest in things are some of the symptoms of clinical depression. so if someone complains of those, then the gp is on the right track in thinking of depression.

most gp's will enquire about more symptoms before making a diagnosis. if it has been someone's experience that a gp did not do that, i believe that is outside the norm.

im not sure why you think gp's are unsure - generaly by the time a referral comes to psychiatry, the gp has made sensible treatment decisions, but the patient hasnt responded, which is why they need psych. however, the diagnosis of depression is quite straightforward, and not something i would expect to be causing confusion or uncertainty amongst gp's.

and, no, i did not say gp's should hand out meds like smarties without making a diagnosis.:rolleyes: thats patently ridiculous.

my point about them erring on the side of prescribing is this: depression is a serious illness, that can have fatal consequences for the patient themselves and sometimes others. if a gp makes a decision to prescribe at a mild/early stage of the illness, i think that is a decision taken in teh patients best interests, in the hope that the depression can be halted in its tracks before anything too serious happens. untreated or inadequately treated depression is a killer, quite literally.


i have no idea where you have gotten the 1in4/1in8 figures from. i have not seen these comparisons before, and i do not know if they are accurate.

sam34

ntlbell wrote: »

I would imagine people taken mind altering drugs when there not needed would not be a good thing?

what questions?

"whats wrong"

"i feel down and depressed"

"try these"

"they didnt work"

"ok try these"

very advanced techniques they have

as i ahve pointed out to you before, the diagnosis of depression is a clinical one, based on interview and mental state examination.
there is no laboratory test for depression.
what "advanced technique" would you like to see gp's use, instead of clinical interview?


edit - backseat modding- we are dragging this thread wildly off topic. best create another thread if you wish to discuss it further

johnnyskeleton

Sam Vimes wrote: »

how did you verify that? did you just look back through the pages? because threads drop off the end after a while so you can't see them. it's just that the last thread went on for weeks and i was posting in it the whole time. i probably generated 20 pages all on my own

Ok fair point, but most of the other abortion threads have been over the course of at least a week or a month & this is mostly just from today. Maybe it will set a record for quickest lock if nothing else.

Strangely enough, I don't feel that I'm even being off topic since the most recent posts are about GP methodologies etc.

Sam Vimes

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Strangely enough, I don't feel that I'm even being off topic since the most recent posts are about GP methodologies etc.

this is true. lads, can we get back onto the topic at hand, ie baby killing: ok or not :P

Sam Vimes

now i think of it, i'd actually be more forgiving of a woman who had absolutely no qualms having an abortion, who saw it as no different to having an ingrown toenail removed and never thought about it again afterwards.

the reason i'd be more forgiving is that that woman doesn't think she did anything wrong but a woman who worries and frets and fells guilt for the rest of her life, she knew that what she was doing was wrong and she went ahead and did it anyway. i think that's a far more immoral act

994

m83 wrote: »

Ok, hypothetical situation for you.

Abortion is illegal. A girl is raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. She recovers and aborts the baby because she can't handle the trauma of the situation.

Still 25 years?

Don't mean to sound callous, but how does being produced by rape mean the foetus is any less of a human?

Bottle_of_Smoke

If the doctor is qualified to perform abortions I wouldn't like to think we'd be wasting him in a jail cell because he was helping someone who would have more than likely gone to England anyway.

Backstreet unqualified improvised abortions, I think they should be charged with some sort of exploitation against the mother but nothing in relation to the foetus.

There is a grey area I must admit. If someone punched a pregnant woman in the womb & directly caused her to miscarry I'd have to say it would be rough justice if he only got charged with punching a woman.

metrovelvet

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If the doctor is qualified to perform abortions I wouldn't like to think we'd be wasting him in a jail cell because he was helping someone who would have more than likely gone to England anyway.

Backstreet unqualified improvised abortions, I think they should be charged with some sort of exploitation against the mother but nothing in relation to the foetus.

There is a grey area I must admit. If someone punched a pregnant woman in the womb & directly caused her to miscarry I'd have to say it would be rough justice if he only got charged with punching a woman.

In the US its double homicide if you kill a pregnant woman. Guess its only a human life when the mother says it is.

Sam Vimes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If the doctor is qualified to perform abortions I wouldn't like to think we'd be wasting him in a jail cell because he was helping someone who would have more than likely gone to England anyway.

What about a doctor who got heroin for someone who would have likely gone to a dealer anyway? Should he be let off?
As i keep saying, that logic only works if you assume there's nothing wrong with abortion, which anti abortionists don't accept

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There is a grey area I must admit. If someone punched a pregnant woman in the womb & directly caused her to miscarry I'd have to say it would be rough justice if he only got charged with punching a woman.

now that's an odd concept

You get punished or not depending on the method used to kill the foetus? Surely it either has a right to life or is a clump of cells that can be discarded? Are there ways that i can kill you without being prosecuted?

Sam Vimes

metrovelvet wrote: »

In the US its double homicide if you kill a pregnant woman. Guess its only a human life when the mother says it is.

Seems so. A question i usually ask in these threads is why are people so disapproving of women who take drugs during their pregnancy? Surely it's "her body, her choice" and they should be applauded for exercising their rights?

thebman

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There is a grey area I must admit. If someone punched a pregnant woman in the womb & directly caused her to miscarry I'd have to say it would be rough justice if he only got charged with punching a woman.

There is a clear reason why that is wrong over abortion.

He didn't have the woman's permission to punch her in the womb most likely. If he did then that's another, more bizarre story that isn't really likely to occur.

b3t4

Here we go again eh?

And here I am, again, responding to such a daft thread that, always, goes round and round and circles. They say a sign of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I think perhaps I'm insane

You know what I've learnt over the years. Abortion has not and will not go away whether there are 40 million threads like this or not. It's still there whether you like it or it. It still happens. It's been happening for thousands of years.

So, you know what I think, let's just get over it and help these vunerable women. Whatever about this 'baby' that doesn't exist in actuality, can we not simply look after the women who do or women simply mechanical incubators and nobody told me about it???

A.

ntlbell

b3t4 wrote: »

Here we go again eh?

And here I am, again, responding to such a daft thread that, always, goes round and round and circles. They say a sign of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I think perhaps I'm insane

You know what I've learnt over the years. Abortion has not and will not go away whether there are 40 million threads like this or not. It's still there whether you like it or it. It still happens. It's been happening for thousands of years.

So, you know what I think, let's just get over it and help these vunerable women. Whatever about this 'baby' that doesn't exist in actuality, can we not simply look after the women who do or women simply mechanical incubators and nobody told me about it???

A.

so what you're saying is, ok they might be murdering/killing but can we not just brush that fact under the table lets ignore that part so we can get on with just doing it?

I see.