The Problem with Rafa Benitez...

ntlbell

Melion wrote: »

So clear this up for me.

May 2009
1st United - 87 points
2nd Chelsea - 87 pts
3rd Arsenal 87 pts
4th Liverpool 87 pts

United win the title on goal difference, we finish 4th. Is that not progress?

no, you'll end up 4th again.

another year with nothing.

same as you were..

Melion

ntlbell wrote: »

no, you'll end up 4th again.

another year with nothing.

same as you were..

Stop talking shít

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

not true they've been in better positions and blew it before..

eh, when?

eagle eye

deisedevil wrote: »

When Fergie came we had nearly been relegated the year before, his first season we finished 11th, in the next season we finished 2nd. The club were in an awful state when Fergie came in. Were Liverpool in that kind of position when Benitez came in? What has he done that Houlier didn't do? He won the CL.

I know my history, especially on the Fergie era and what he did. He had a lot less to work with than Benitez did. Benitez hasn't made any considerable improvement in terms of CL in my opinion and I have huge respect for Pool fans who admit that.

:rolleyes:
Yeah you know your history alright.

NOT

deisedevil

whatawaster wrote: »

Most people will accept that it's never been harder to win the premier league. When Rafa came in we were (just about) the fourth best team in the country. Then, the only player who had looked capable of scoring us goals in the previous few years leaves for a cut-down price. Rafa can't add hugely to the squad, and wins the CL largely with a team of average players. Yes, we were lucky in the final, but there were some brilliant performances throughout the tournament. Both Leverkusen matches. Home to Juventus. The defending against Chelsea.
Over the next 4 years he had to work on a budget he's basically earnt for himself through excellent CL performances (though you say above he hasn't made any improvement in that regard).
Ferguson, if i'm not mistaken had two very important things in his favour. 1. Liverpool, the best team in the country for two decades were on the decline (neither chelsea, or united or Arsenal were on the decline when Rafa came in) and he was able to pay large transfer fees (for the time) for players like Keane (Torres, 3 years after Rafa came in, was his first signing over 15 million)

Fair enough. So Rafa is doing as much as he can with a team that are at best a 4th place league team. Therefore he's a decent manager and is doing a great job keeping Pool at that level.

Some Pool fans need to make their mind up, is Rafa doing the best he can with a club who are not good enough to win the league or is Rafa a poor manager not doing enough with a club who should be capable of winning the league?

Paparazzo

Melion wrote: »

When were we ever miles ahead?

Liverpool were 8 points ahead of man-u at one point before christmas
United: W W D W W W W W
Liverpool: D W D D W W D D
That their league form, that's the 8 points dropped

Melion wrote: »

Yep, thats the reason.

You're begining to see sense

ntlbell

Melion wrote: »

Stop talking shít

only if you start reading posts.

21 pints behind...not challening...

11 points behind...not challening...


i said if you finish again 11 points behind it's another year it's the same as last year = no progress....

see?

your point

you cut it down from 21 to 11 in a year..great...

now what happens this year if it's the same? no progress

so when is enough enough when do you decide to change?

how many more years does he get to progress?

3? 4?

if he comes with 4/5 points for the next 4 years your happy?

that's what liverpool are happy with now?

sounds like a serious lack of ambition

LuckyLloyd

roryc wrote: »

What a silly, silly thread.

The reason so many managers aren't getting a chance these days is because of fairweather fans like a few people in this thread.

Yes Benitez has made mistakes, so does every single manager. Perhaps he's sees a lot more on the training ground from certain players who just don't seem to recreate it on the pitch. Either way, Benitez has won a CL for Pool, and has them in the best position to challenge for the title in 20 years. Give the man a chance ffs

If Fergie had started his career 20 years later he'd be f**ked IMO

Yup, this is the reality as far as I'm concerned. If Fergie takes over in 1996 as opposed to 2006 there is no dynasty.

Another thing to remember is that saying "THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN" when the subject is sports is incredibly stupid.

- Liverpool were 3 - 0 down at halftime in May 2005;
- The Boston Redsox were 3 games down in a best of seven series against the Yankees in October 2004;
- The Arizona Cardinals had not made the playoffs since the 1990 / 91 season coming into this year;
- Greece were priced as the least likely to win the 2004 European Championship by some bookmakers in May 2004;

If you keep trying and don't give up, amazing things can happen in sport. Liverpool winning a title under Benitez next season would not be any more amazing than some of the above examples of the unexpected.

whatawaster

deisedevil wrote: »

Fair enough. So Rafa is doing as much as he can with a team that are at best a 4th place league team. Therefore he's a decent manager and is doing a great job keeping Pool at that level.

Some Pool fans need to make their mind up, is Rafa doing the best he can with a club who are not good enough to win the league or is Rafa a poor manager not doing enough with a club who should be capable of winning the league?

Rafa is doing the best he can with a team that are challenging the top teams more than they ever have, and it remains to be seen if we're good enough to win the league.
In my opinion, our team isn't good enough to win the league (on paper anyway), there are still a couple of holes in the squad. Yet i have faith in Rafa to get the best out of our team and i'm confident we'll be there or thereabouts come may. That's all any reasonable Liverpool fan wants

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

eh, when?

01-02

Melion

ntlbell wrote: »

only if you start reading posts.

21 pints behind...not challening...

11 points behind...not challening...


i said if you finish again 11 points behind it's another year it's the same as last year = no progress....

see?

your point

you cut it down from 21 to 11 in a year..great...

now what happens this year if it's the same? no progress

so when is enough enough when do you decide to change?

how many more years does he get to progress?

3? 4?

if he comes with 4/5 points for the next 4 years your happy?

that's what liverpool are happy with now?

sounds like a serious lack of ambition

Wanna make sense for me?

ntlbell

Melion wrote: »

Wanna make sense for me?

i could make it all in caps?

Melion

ntlbell wrote: »

i could make it all in caps?

Just some sense will do please.

You think going from finishing 11 points behind to finishing on the same amount of points isnt progress.

deisedevil

eagle eye wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Yeah you know your history alright.

NOT

Oops, the shame. We were almost in the relegation zone when he came in and he brought us up to 11th. I always thought we were nearly relegated the season before and we finished 11th in his first season. Oh well i wasonly a year old so my memories of it are a bit cloudy, lol

Mr Alan

good to see you crawl out from under your bridge NTL

ntlbell

Melion wrote: »

Just some sense will do please.

You think going from finishing 11 points behind to finishing on the same amount of points isnt progress.

no i asked was it challening? and i dont consider it to be.

then i asked what if he lands in the same spot this year

10/11 points behind where's the progress

where will it be enough to say lets get someone new?

how many years do you give a man to keep coming 3/4th regardless of points for the biggest club in the world who hasn't won a title in 20 years?

whatawaster

deisedevil wrote: »

Oops, the shame. We were almost in the relegation zone when he came in and he brought us up to 11th. I always thought we were nearly relegated the season before and we finished 11th in his first season. Oh well i wasonly a year old so my memories of it are a bit cloudy, lol

bottom in November. Finished 11th. That sounds like something Harry Redknapp could get out of

Melion

So losing the title on goal difference isnt challenging?

ntlbell

Melion wrote: »

So losing the title on goal difference isnt challenging?

:rolleyes:

GuanYin

Guys if you want to contribute to the discussion post in this thread, if you don't want to contribute DON't POST. If you have a problem with posts, report the posts and we'll look at them.

If you spam or threadspoil, you'll be infracted, if you keep at it, you'll be banned and your posts deleted. Just because you don't like a topic, doesn't mean it can't be discussed. Stay civil and on-topic.

Melion

ntlbell wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Is it ok to ask for an explanation of this?

joe123

Benitez has his problems but hes still a good manager.

One of his failings is his transfer dealings. Buying robbie Keane + Dossena = 26 million....Robinho = 32 million.

Seeing as we had insua dont you think its Benitez job to know that instead of buying dossena we had a very promising left back sitting in the reserves?

Also some of his line ups/substitutions....lucas on against everton instead of mascherano?? Kuyt playing every week while babel/keane get about 10 minutes a week?

Despite all this we are lucky to have a manager of benitez quality at our club.

Paparazzo

joe123 wrote: »

Seeing as we had insua dont you think its Benitez job to know that instead of buying dossena we had a very promising left back sitting in the reserves?

Rafa seems to buy 2 full backs every year. Possibly because he's not allowed to spend the money on his first choice, and ends up with someone not good enough. Hence his contract negotiations

Mr Alan

joe123 wrote: »

Also some of his line ups/substitutions....lucas on against everton instead of mascherano??

wat was wrong with that substitution? Lucas has been quite a bit better than Mascherano the last month. was that the reason Yossi commited a stupid foul and we dropped points?

joe123

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat was wrong with that substitution? Lucas has been quite a bit better than Mascherano the last month. was that the reason Yossi commited a stupid foul and we dropped points?

Ive seen Lucas play quite alot this season and he hasnt impressed me one bit. Stray passes/gives away fouls etc. And yossi isnt good enough for Liverpool.

Melion

joe123 wrote: »

Ive seen Lucas play quite alot this season and he hasnt impressed me one bit. Stray passes/gives away fouls etc. And yossi isnt good enough for Liverpool.

The same Lucas who was probably MOTM against Newcastle?

Mr Alan

again, Yossi has been quite excellent the last couple of months.

Lucas has impressed more than Mascherano the last while, Mascherano (who i love) has been quite poor this season.

i'm just pointing out that the substitution you thought was baffling and is the type **** people like to beat Rafa with, was actually quite straight forward, the only reason it becomes "baffling" is because of a foul commited by Yossi-hardly anything to do with Rafa.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

again, Yossi has been quite excellent the last couple of months.

Lucas has impressed more than Mascherano the last while, Mascherano (who i love) has been quite poor this season.

i'm just pointing out that the substitution you thought was baffling and is the type **** people like to beat Rafa with, was actually quite straight forward, the only reason it becomes "baffling" is because of a foul commited by Yossi-hardly anything to do with Rafa.

Nothing wrong with bringing Lucas on over Mascherano, but bringing a defensive midfielder on and having no strikers for the last 10 or so minutes of a derby match was a mistake IMO.

Mr Alan

was Kuyt not playing up front?

LuckyLloyd

Mr Alan wrote: »

was Kuyt not playing up front?

He was.

Mr Alan

ok, so we did have a striker playing up front for the last few minutes.

the same striker who played up front in our performance of the year a couple of weeks previous

SCREW YOU RAFA! SCREW YOU!

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

was Kuyt not playing up front?

I stand by what I said.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

I stand by what I said.

as do i

Mr Alan wrote: »

ok, so we did have a striker playing up front for the last few minutes.

the same striker who played up front in our performance of the year a couple of weeks previous

SCREW YOU RAFA! SCREW YOU!

Boggles

Personally I think he should have brought on Babel (I know) or one of the young pacey strikers.

Then again Lucas was only on the pitch a few seconds before the foul was committed so it wasn't his fault.

The marking of Cahil was where the fault was and thus the defense have to hold there hands up.

SantryRed

The problem with Rafa Benitez is that he doesn't like changing formation. I personally think letting Pennant go was a big mistake. If he had Riera and Pennant on the wings at home to the likes of Stoke and West Ham they would have won no bother.

Everyone makes mistakes in transfers. Who hasn't? Ferguson signing Veron. Mourinho signing Shevchenko(if it was his decision). No manager is perfect in the transfer window.

Highsider

joe123 wrote: »

Benitez has his problems but hes still a good manager.

One of his failings is his transfer dealings. Buying robbie Keane + Dossena = 26 million....Robinho = 32 million.

Seeing as we had insua dont you think its Benitez job to know that instead of buying dossena we had a very promising left back sitting in the reserves?

Also some of his line ups/substitutions....lucas on against everton instead of mascherano?? Kuyt playing every week while babel/keane get about 10 minutes a week?

Despite all this we are lucky to have a manager of benitez quality at our club.

Emmmm the same Robinho who is at home in Brazil in a strop because his mate did'nt join him at City?...No thanks.

PHB

I probably would have brought Lucas on 12 seconds earlier, it would have made the difference.

monkey9

deisedevil wrote: »

If Rafa had not won the CL would he still be manager now?

If he doesn't bring Liverpool to the PL title or a CL title this season do you think he should stay?

Just wondering.

If Alex Ferguson hadn't won the F.A Cup in 1990, would he still be manager now?? History can take some bizzare twists and turns.

The second question, yes. He should stay. Champions League is not a priority over a league challenge, but success would of course be most welcome.
A league title isn't a be all and end all for Rafa continuing in the job. Just to be up there with a chance come April and May and not being out of it by November. That shows progression compared to previous campaigns

monkey9

ntlbell wrote: »

why do people keep saying things like this

jose two prem titles back to back two cl semi's - gone.

grant cl final second in the leage - gone.

There are different expectations on both clubs considering the gulf in wealth between the two.
If that's what Roman was prepared to do, he can do it. But they ain't exactly looking invincible these days, are they??
And it's that kind of nonsense that your point makes about Abramovich's decision making that is what we are talking about when we back Rafa. We can see the progress he is making and getting rid of him and starting all over again is just back to square one, except square one is even further behind square two than ever

Jazzy

Boggles wrote: »

Their second.

they're second


mistake correcting seems to be todays theme boggles ya ? :pac:

eagle eye

joe123 wrote: »

Benitez has his problems but hes still a good manager.

One of his failings is his transfer dealings. Buying robbie Keane + Dossena = 26 million....Robinho = 32 million.

Its all so simple really, you are such a genius. Only 6 million in the difference. so clever, did you ever consider the wages might also be a factor?
Like that there could be anything up to 5 mill per year difference.

monkey9

Ardent wrote: »

Back to your original post. I agree with you that Benitez may need to be replaced, I too have run out of patience with the guy, but I think we should wait until the end of the season before judging him. He's still in with a shot of winning the title.

So you want Rafa gone, but you're gracious enough to let him stay on til the end of the season because you think that for the first time in nineteen years, he is in with a shot of winning the title?? With fans like you, hey??
Your statement above pretty much negates anything else you have to say

Ardent wrote: »

- Has not shown a capacity to adapt to the English league after almost 5 seasons in charge.

You're seriously saying this, yeah? The manager, who's team collected our biggest tally of points in a Premier League season, who have broken records for cleans sheet in a row, clean sheets over a season and who are now challenging for the title as we approach February??

Ardent wrote: »

As I said, we should wait until the end of the season. Benitez started this season saying that it was the first season where he had a squad resembling what he required. Unfortunately, we have been largely poor this season and, only for some fortuitous comebacks in the first quarter of the season, we would be out of the race already. If we do now continue in the same vein and fall away badly from the title race (which I predict we will) then the club should really call time.

Largely poor?? So have other clubs, we're still in challenging. And as for fortuitous comebacks, you still have to earn them. I could say the same thing about Utd. If they hadn't scored late against the likes of Sunderland, Bolton, Boro etc, they'd be out of the race.

Ardent wrote: »

As for prospective replacement managers, I would be happy with anyone from: Hiddink, Mourinho, O'Neill. You feel with O'Neill in particular - if he had our players at his disposal - that he would canter to the title. You just have to see how Villa are flying right now and how their players are loving their football. The same players start every week and there's an understanding between them that's sorely lacking at Liverpool. Not sure how he would do in Europe but I think he'd be fine.

The fact that you even mention prospective replacement managers considering we're level on points at the top, still in the F.A Cup and a last 16 meeting with Real Madrid in the Champions League is laughable.
And O' Neill would canter to the title with our players?? These are Rafa's players, his signings. People are slating Rafa's signings, you yourself has said his transfer dealings have been hit and miss, but yet you think he's assembled a title winning side who would romp to that title, it just needs O' Neill to be in charge?? :rolleyes:

You see, the problem i have with the likes of yourself and The Chessplayer is not necessarily your anti-Rafa stance (although i just can't comprehend it), but it's more the fact that you seem have made up your mind about him. That no matter what he does, you will find the negative. And whatever positives you may find, you still probably wouldn't credit him.

monkey9

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Skrtel injury was not a problem as we had Agger in cover, unlike last season when Agger got injured and Hyppia had to fill in. Torres was a huge loss, but pushing Gerrard up front made up for this.

:rolleyes:

It's almost like your suggesting that Rafa has bought good players, put together a decent squad and can make tactical decisions when required. But that can't be right, can it? For surely Rafa is a clueless clown who hasn't one iota of footballing knowledge and is running the club into the ground after the heady heights of Houllier's last season which Rafa was lucky enough to pick up the pieces from!!

monkey9

ntlbell wrote: »

no, you'll end up 4th again.

another year with nothing.

same as you were..

So this is your response to Melion's example that Liverpool, finishing level on points with the eventual champions and the other two, but finishing 4th on goal difference is not progression compared to finishing fourth about 11, 12 or twenty points behind the Champions?

jesus_thats_gre

monkey9 wrote: »

So this is your response to Melion's example that Liverpool, finishing level on points with the eventual champions and the other two, but finishing 4th on goal difference is not progression compared to finishing fourth about 11, 12 or twenty points behind the Champions?

It is strange. I have read quite a few posts by ntlbell on other forums and he seems surprisingly reasonable but when it comes to football, he seems to loose all ability to have a reasonable discussion.

Boggles

2 give an answer on your 2 main points Chessplayer.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Benitez's pig-headedness in contract wranglings are really p!ssing me off. I would not be happy to have him 100% in control of the transfer budget. If he walks, then so be it.

It's clear that some board members do not trust Rafa in the transfer market, and that is fair enough he has bought a large quantity of turkeys, but to be fair to him he has the knack of recouping the money for said turkeys and selling them on at equivilant or not huge loss amounts.

There was so much made out of the Barry affair that it is hard to tell the wood from the trees. I think Rafa wanted Barry badly, so much so he was willing to sell Alonso, noone came in for Alonso and the board would not stump up the rest of the cash for Barry, add the 20 million of Keane and the stories behind that and you can see why Benitiez might want greater leverage when it comes to the transfers he wants.

In hindsight selling Alonso would have been a bad idea.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Who would replace him?
They say MO'N wouldn't be interested, and I'm not sure we could get Mourinho...

Mourinho would be a definate No, No. He has a proven track record of being out the door when he doesn't get his own way, and the lack of harmony in the Liverpool boardroom would keep him away.

As for Martin O'Neill, Liverpool could do alot worse, then again they could do alot worse than Benitez, Ramos comes to mind.

Warper

There are a number of problems wrong with Benitez along with a number of positives.

The guy is tactically brilliant for the "big matches" which he has shown on numerous occasions especially in the CL and this year in the Premier League.

Unfortunately he is stubbornly naive, especially at home, playing the lesser teams. He cant seem to grasp that lesser teams will play ultra-defensive at Anfield and he cant seem to figure out a way to overcome this.

It is debatable whether Liverpool are improving - Chelsea, Utd., Arsenal are not playing as well this year as previously so this is obviously a major factor why Liverpool are at the top of the table as they are still having a number of shocking results especially at Anfield.

He buys an awful lot of average players, players that simply will not improve the team. He also seems to be still unsure of what his best team is? I mean what manager excludes a centre-half for the Champions League and then proceed to play him in every match even when he has a full squad to choose from? Ya im talking about you Sami. So all in all is he really the man to guide Liverpool to the Premiership - I think not.

citytillidie

Why are you guys feeding ntlbell?

joe123

Highsider wrote: »

Emmmm the same Robinho who is at home in Brazil in a strop because his mate did'nt join him at City?...No thanks.

You wouldnt like robinho at Liverpool?? For ****s sake...:cool:

True maybe your right about lucas against newcastle he had a good game but seriously one game hasnt made him. Watch him next time, his passing at times is woeful.

And having no strikers left on (kuyt would striker more fear into a brick wall than he would any centre backs) was bascially giving Everton the incentive to just come at us.

As much as I like Benitez and dont want him out of the club I do take off my rose tinted glasses at times and ask myself "Rafa what the **** are you at".

And if you havent asked yourself this then your lying to yourself.

The only reason were so close to the top in years is quite simply Chelsea and United are under performing.

monkey9

Warper wrote: »

He buys an awful lot of average players, players that simply will not improve the team. He also seems to be still unsure of what his best team is? I mean what manager excludes a centre-half for the Champions League and then proceed to play him in every match even when he has a full squad to choose from? Ya im talking about you Sami. So all in all is he really the man to guide Liverpool to the Premiership - I think not.

He was excluded because of the foreigner rule in the Champions League and it's not like it has cost us now, is it?
He's played a lot of games due to Skrtels injury and to deal with the Stokes and Boltons