Why is the public sector so innefficient?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Ok you're going to have to start looking at the actions of the respective sectors in the context of their overall function.

If a private company fails to offer good customer service, it is quite probably because they don't need to do so in order to maintain profitability for their shareholders. Shareholders don't care how happy a company's customers are. They care about dividends and capital gains.

If the public sector fails to offer good service to the people of Ireland, it is failing in it's core function, to serve Ireland, which is inexcusable.

/edit: To clarify, what I am saying is that it is a lot worse for the public sector to fair in delivering to the general public than it is for the private sector

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

Ok you're going to have to start looking at the actions of the respective sectors in the context of their overall function.

If a private company fails to offer good customer service, it is quite probably because they don't need to do so in order to maintain profitability for their shareholders. Shareholders don't care how happy a company's customers are. They care about dividends and capital gains.

If the public sector fails to offer good service to the people of Ireland, it is failing in it's core function, to serve Ireland, which is inexcusable.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055468908&page=1 Read post number 13 illustrating how I was issued a passport in 2 & 1/2 hours. Any time I deal with my motor tax or my PAYE it's dealt with straight away.. Where is this "inexcusable failing in it's core function of serving the citizens" that you are talking about?

Most people I know get good service from the Public service (as many posters have even put in this here thread!) and moreso in fact than I ever see from a large corporation..

jim o doom

Sean_K wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if the directors of a private company were failing in their duties, the shareholders would be quick to oust them. In the public sector, there is no penalty for inefficency and thus it is rife.

Let's say the directors of this company (Ireland) are the ministers in power. Have they failed us. A lot of people would say "yes indeed they have". Are these same people in power. Yes. So we "get the government we deserve".

Thomas_S_Hunterson

jim o doom wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055468908&page=1 Read post number 13 illustrating how I was issued a passport in 2 & 1/2 hours. Any time I deal with my motor tax or my PAYE it's dealt with straight away.. Where is this "inexcusable failing in it's core function of serving the citizens" that you are talking about?

Most people I know get good service from the Public service (as many posters have even put in this here thread!) and moreso in fact than I ever see from a large corporation..

I have always had good experiences with the public sector as well. The poor service I am talking about is the horrendous value for money and inefficiency we get (maybe service was the wrong word) /edit: in not all parts of the public sector, naturally.

nesf

parsi wrote: »

Have to say hats off to the Revenue.

Submitted our details online last week for Medical expenses and got the cheques yesterday.

The Revenue in fairness to them have made excellent progress over the past decade. It's taken me four to six months to get cheques off them in the past but I blame that more on the volume of red tape than anything else to be honest.


The Public Sector is a real mixed bag. Some parts like the Revenue have embraced modern technology and communications and made the lives of citizens far easier. Other parts, deserve the public sector stigma from what I've seen of them (i.e. everything needing to be done in person during extremely awkward hours like 9.30-4 on weekdays etc).

dathi1

The Public Sector is a real mixed bag. Some parts like the Revenue have embraced modern technology and communications and made the lives of citizens far easier. Other parts, deserve the public sector stigma from what I've seen of them (i.e. everything needing to be done in person during extremely awkward hours like 9.30-4 on weekdays etc).

I think that sums it up. When it comes to the collection of Tax revenue and the implementation of tax law, the state is 99.9% effecient.

In my experience everything else is crap.

NewDubliner

Political interference, vanity projects, pressure to hire more people to fill offices in minister's own constituencies?

Earth Worm Jim

deisebabe wrote: »

the civil service wages are extremely good...particularly when you take into account the quality of their work. They hire in consultants to do the actual work that is then passed off as the work of five of them as they have no other way to account for their hours. True story is that in one department a guy took three months to compile a relatively simple 15 page document. I cannot IMAGINE how it took so long.
Also if you step into any of their IT depts it certainly isn't the civil service doing the work. Instead its contractors costing us 450 - 500 euros a day. PS is a joke in most cases. The problem is the legit hard workers that are in there are labelled alongside the fools that shuffle along in a job that they cannot be fired from.
Oh and the "normal" civil servants will actually agree. I feel sorry for them having to put up with the incompetence that is rife in the departments.
Another thing I dont understand is paying for civil servants to do college courses and then not use them in their qualified area.........

Yeah, very true.. I have experience of this, I worked in a couple of departments as a contractor for a few contracts (IT) and I have to say its a fecking disgrace that they pay private firms thousands a week to complete work thats actualy the civil servants role/responsibility..

Though in saying that, they are just people and some very nice ones, I think its as said before, they are in a click, handy number, job for life etc and the don't need to work to deadlines or have to worry bout bosses, sacking etc. But one thing I did notice was they all look(most) tired/bored/fed up and not many are happy.. I think its the fact many are counting the days till their retirement...

Also there are many very good civil servants, who actualy get stick for working, well doing their jobs....

NewDubliner

Earth Worm Jim wrote: »

Yeah, very true.. I have experience of this, I worked in a couple of departments as a contractor for a few contracts (IT) and I have to say its a fecking disgrace that they pay private firms thousands a week to complete work thats actualy the civil servants role/responsibility..

Civil service IT staff had their morale demolished some years ago by the abolition of the distinction between IT and non IT jobs and the lack of an IT career path, further reinforced then by PMDS which favours people with generic rather than specialist skills.

Internal politics mean that CS business managers would rather splurge on consultants spouting the latest TLA's and Magic Quadrants rather than ceding any authority or repsonsibility to their own colleagues. I've seen crazy money thrown at consultants/contractors to do things that could have been done by internal staff member, if only they were allowed.

That said, the outside contractors are needed to build new systems. But, the problem is that once they're in the door, it can be difficult to get them to hand over a finished product to be maintained by internal staff. Recurring revenue streams come from maintenance and support work on programs that can only be understood by the contractor's people.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

That said, the outside contractors are needed to build new systems. But, the problem is that once they're in the door, it can be difficult to get them to hand over a finished product to be maintained by internal staff. Recurring revenue streams come from maintenance and support work on programs that can only be understood by the contractor's people.

Whose fault is that? The government's no doubt for not putting their own people in place to take over and learn but instead keep on doing what they've done. Contractors don't all just lock up the code and systems and shoot any CS who comes near it - it's up to the departments to try and get their people in and familiar with the systems.

NewDubliner

ixoy wrote: »

Whose fault is that? The government's no doubt for not putting their own people in place to take over and learn but instead keep on doing what they've done.

The government does not want specialist grades in the Civil Service as it makes pay more complicated. You're supposed to be able to switch from dog-catcher one day to database administrator the next.

ixoy wrote: »

Contractors don't all just lock up the code and systems and shoot any CS who comes near it - it's up to the departments to try and get their people in and familiar with the systems.

You don't know the game of high-end IT business consultancies and 'Professional Services' divisions of the major software vendors. It's not in their interest to play nice.

Victor

WxfrdJay wrote: »

I have a sister in law working in the Passport office and she started on €26k! That's rediculous money,If you compare it to a full-time bartender whom would take home only 30k for working 5 or 50 times harder, it seems grossly unfair.

But the bar-tender gets free drink after work and gets tips from customers. Do you really want your sister in law getting a free passport at the end of the day and direct payments from passport applicants? :eek:

What is the pay scale for someone in the passport office?

gazzer

NewDubliner wrote: »

Civil service IT staff had their morale demolished some years ago by the abolition of the distinction between IT and non IT jobs and the lack of an IT career path, further reinforced then by PMDS which favours people with generic rather than specialist skills.

Internal politics mean that CS business managers would rather splurge on consultants spouting the latest TLA's and Magic Quadrants rather than ceding any authority or repsonsibility to their own colleagues. I've seen crazy money thrown at consultants/contractors to do things that could have been done by internal staff member, if only they were allowed.

That said, the outside contractors are needed to build new systems. But, the problem is that once they're in the door, it can be difficult to get them to hand over a finished product to be maintained by internal staff. Recurring revenue streams come from maintenance and support work on programs that can only be understood by the contractor's people.

I got promoted to an IT Analyst position 5 years ago. I find it bizzare that I get the exact same pay as somebody on the same grade but who does admin work. Im not saying I should be getting loads more money but there should be at least some difference in pay to reflect the totally different types of work. I dont know why Management insist on using contractors when they have qualified CS staff to do the work. I use COBOL, SQL and UNIX in my department but I am willing and eager to learn more.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

The government does not want specialist grades in the Civil Service as it makes pay more complicated. You're supposed to be able to switch from dog-catcher one day to database administrator the next.

I'd believe that but is that not a fault of the unions? They want a nice, clean pay scale grade that is not merit or competency based. The structure of CO/EO/SO doesn't clearly allow technical skills (or more pointedly, reward them).

You don't know the game of high-end IT business consultancies and 'Professional Services' divisions of the major software vendors. It's not in their interest to play nice.

Not of all of them, but I do of some and it's not true in all cases. The government could actively try and train up its own people but it's easier for many reasons of its own, not to.

gazzer wrote:

I got promoted to an IT Analyst position 5 years ago. I find it bizzare that I get the exact same pay as somebody on the same grade but who does admin work. Im not saying I should be getting loads more money but there should be at least some difference in pay to reflect the totally different types of work. I dont know why Management insist on using contractors when they have qualified CS staff to do the work. I use COBOL, SQL and UNIX in my department but I am willing and eager to learn more.

I'd fully support a move to try and create such a position but the fact that there isn't one is surely a flaw in the way the government (and perhaps the unions) operate? I know of people who are at the same level who are at the same grade (lets say SO) - one is a paper pusher, for want of a better term, and the other an IT specialist. The former gets paid far more than the latter based on the way pay grades are rewarded by year of service and not due to skill. I don't believe it's fair and I don't believe there's the right opportunities there but I do honestly believe it's a flaw in the CS/PS service which doesn't always reward based on merit or provide good opportunities for hard workers.

Kimbot

gazzer wrote: »

I got promoted to an IT Analyst position 5 years ago. I find it bizzare that I get the exact same pay as somebody on the same grade but who does admin work. Im not saying I should be getting loads more money but there should be at least some difference in pay to reflect the totally different types of work. I dont know why Management insist on using contractors when they have qualified CS staff to do the work. I use COBOL, SQL and UNIX in my department but I am willing and eager to learn more.

I take it you work for Revenue Gazzer??
I was in there doing the exact same as you and I found it hilarious that our pay was the same as a similer named grade in the service!!

NewDubliner

ixoy wrote: »

I'd believe that but is that not a fault of the unions? They want a nice, clean pay scale grade that is not merit or competency based.

You can't absolve government. Let's remember their attack on Dublin-based IT staff as part of the 'decentralisation' swindle. But the unions are part of the problem as the majority of the members don't work in IT and quite happily went along with government proposals to strip away the IT grade status. The IT staff can't get separate representation.

ixoy wrote: »

Not of all of them, but I do of some and it's not true in all cases.

Any that don't are probably not making big money.

ixoy wrote: »

I do honestly believe it's a flaw in the CS/PS service which doesn't always reward based on merit or provide good opportunities for hard workers.

To do that you'd have to find a way to measure more than just numbers of papers pushed or 'lines of code written'.

Godge

Why do these debates always descend into arguments between public servants and private sector employees. I have worked in both and have seen efficiencies and inefficiencies in both.

However, my recent experiences have convinced me that the public sector is more efficient. I was renewing my car tax and insurance.

Five minutes online and my car tax was renewed. No quibble from me with the amount to pay as it was clearly set out on the website the basis for the charge based on the category of car, emissions, etc.. Tax disc arrived in two days.

What a difference with the insurance company. First I rang them to query the quotation as the increase seemed to have no basis. Over the phone they agreed a new amount but I wanted to see it before paying. Couldn't send by email, waited a week for post. Tried then to pay online to discover that the online payment system could only handle round euro and not cent while my quotation was an uneven amount. Took another half hour on the phone to make payment and a week for disc to arrive.

DublinWriter

Godge wrote: »

However, my recent experiences have convinced me that the public sector is more efficient. I was renewing my car tax and insurance.

Good IT is rather like a co-worker having good personal hygene - you don't notice it if it's done well and if it fails it creates a hell of a stink.

In a way it's like how the media criticised the IT profession after Y2K when the planned disasters didn't happen.

One of the things I'd highly commend Revenue for is ROS. The number of high profile IT failures that UK's Inland Revenue have had are numerous and legend.

Sadly, Revenue are the exception in IT terms within the broader public sector.

K-9

DublinWriter wrote: »

Good IT is rather like a co-worker having good personal hygene - you don't notice it if it's done well and if it fails it creates a hell of a stink.

In a way it's like how the media criticised the IT profession after Y2K when the planned disasters didn't happen.

One of the things I'd highly commend Revenue for is ROS. The number of high profile IT failures that UK's Inland Revenue have had are numerous and legend.

Sadly, Revenue are the exception in IT terms within the broader public sector.

YEP, Revenue, B-, More integration with SW needed.

SW, D+

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I can only judge on personal experience (anything else is heresay) and I don't work in the Public sector. I recently made a Tax return and it was sorted in double jig time. My motor tax renewal at the local offices was smooth and quick. I had a query with the County Council about stray dogs last month and it was all cleared up in less than a week. My daughter lost her passport last year and amid the panic the Passport Office were very helpful, polite and efficient - re-issuing a passport immediately to her. Great service and very efficient all round.
Lasy June a local furniture company promised delivery in August. After many phonecalls, lost dispatch papers, and visits to the store delivery was made in late December. Ryanair problems last Summer. Local supermarket branch can't seem to have stock of certain basic products available every week. Then there are Sky terms, conditions, and procedures that defy belief. Poor service certainly but also indicative of an underlying inefficiency.

DadaKopf

Yes. Before people jump to ill-informed opinions about the source of our economic problems, it's worth getting things into perspective. Irish business is highly inefficient and wasteful, too.

It's true that certain bodies within the broader 'public service' - the HSE being a case in point - require massive reform to use existing resources more effectively. Centralised command-and-control management structures are important to change, as are incentive mechanisms and performance-related promotions/firings to improve morale and innovation within the service. Also, public servants must be transferrable across the broader public service (e.g a HSE manager could be redeployed to a local agency, etc.).

However, report after report has revealed how badly managed private enterprises are in comparison to those in mainland Europe. Part of it is down to lack of ability on part of business-owners, executives and managers. Part is down to businesses simply inflating prices out of greed. Everyone hurts under this scenario. It's disingenuous to say the least that IBEC and ISME would preach the government mantra of public sector reform while themselves concealing their own ineptitude.

carlowguy32

i work in the public sector, i thought it would be a good job to have, why are people so jealous of that, the test to get in was advertised in the national papers so anyone with the leaving could do the test, i work hard and try my best to earn money to pay the bills, why do people like the op have a problem with that

Thomas_S_Hunterson

carlowguy32 wrote: »

i work in the public sector, i thought it would be a good job to have, why are people so jealous of that, the test to get in was advertised in the national papers so anyone with the leaving could do the test, i work hard and try my best to earn money to pay the bills, why do people like the op have a problem with that

People have an issue when people who are entirelly superfluous to requirement are employed and do little more than push paper around a desk.

I don't think anyone has an issue with people doing an honest days work.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Sean_K wrote: »

People have an issue when people who are entirelly superfluous to requirement are employed and do little more than push paper around a desk.

I don't think anyone has an issue with people doing an honest days work.

This thread is just going around in circles (very inefficient really).

There you go again presuming people you don't know are any more surplus to requirements in one sector over another. How do you know somebody just pushes paper around?
How many Private sector workers spend half the day on the internet at work. How many are bullshting on messsageboards right now?

DadaKopf

Sean_K wrote: »

People have an issue when people who are entirelly superfluous to requirement are employed and do little more than push paper around a desk.

I don't think anyone has an issue with people doing an honest days work.

Yet so many people labour under the belief that all public sector workers earn crazy amounts of money. Most don't.

Many people simply aren't thinking logically. They are concerned for their job insecurity within the private sector and are angry with those who don't seem to have such concerns. But think it through: if public sector workers were let go en masse and the public sector 'streamlined' and privatised, where would the bus route or hospital bed be for those living in 'unprofitable' areas of the country? Would the services be there for when people need them? How much more would it cost?

As I said, it's not like the private sector itself is doing much better.

It's important to keep public finances under control, accountable and well-spent. But let's face reality: reducing pay across the public sector isn't going to fix the problem because it's been caused by terrible government policy.

Tell a VEC teacher in a YouthReach centre in Drimnagh who earns €20,000 a year to take a 10% pay cut. Does this make sense?

Please don't food yourselves about what this pay cut business is about. It's the oldest trick in the book. Inflation can be kept under control by creating massive unemployment. That's not politically feasible outside of developing countries these days, so the next best thing is to get us all to take a nice reduction in income. Except, of course, all things not being equal, those at the top won't have to pay their due, pay anything in fact, while the majority of hardworking people do their 'patriotic duty'.

Thanks, Bertie.

NewDubliner

DadaKopf wrote: »

Tell a VEC teacher in a YouthReach centre in Drimnagh who earns €20,000 a year to take a 10% pay cut. Does this make sense?.

Agreed.

There have been some kites flown about limiting the cuts to people earning more than €xx,xxx euro. It's a nice 'quick-fix' idea, but what if someone earns €xx,xxx -1? You'd then have higher earners getting less than lower earners. For example, Joe earns €29,999 and Mary earns €30,001. After cuts, Joe earns €29,999 an Mary earns €27,000.90.

Goes to show how much tosh is being pushed around in the media.

K4t

Too many people on this board reading the Indo, and even worse, believing the tripe in it.

There are a few bloated sectors within the Public Sector (HSE being a prime example) but for the most part the Irish public service is efficient and full of hard, dedicated workers. Stop believing in everything you read and generalising.

Saintly

K4t wrote: »

Too many people on this board reading the Indo, and even worse, believing the tripe in it.

There are a few bloated sectors within the Public Sector (HSE being a prime example) but for the most part the Irish public service is efficient and full of hard, dedicated workers. Stop believing in everything you read and generalising.

I'm a public servant in the health system and I disagree. Individuals within the public service may work hard, be dedicated but the key issue is incentive. I can do as much or as little as I like without fear of regular review/performance indicators/performance related increments. The system is designed to foster apathy and laziness among workers. The sheer scale of wastage and inefficiency - not to mention a complete lack of planning or logic is staggering - and ultimately defies any effort to change it.
I say that as a well paid member of the HSE. I'm all for reform...

ixoy

Nice to see someone within the PS/CS agree on that point - the whole pay model structure does not reward the hard worker. There's no merit-based element to it, and you can coast along and get the pay increases with a minimum of effort or really put yourself out and ... still get the same pay increase. It means that I see people who literally spend large chunks of the day on the Metro crossword and lunch and know they're getting paid far more than the guy who goes out of his way to help me.

There's also the fact certain skills aren't recognised (as gazzer and jonny24ie have pointed out). I'll take a pertinent example in this: I have, on a few occasions, wanted to show faith in the CS guys I work with and let them show initiative and assume they know certain things because I figure they're smart and capable. Instead you meet resistance often from some - "this isn't what we do, we never do this" and there's no chance for people within there to grow (sorry for being so vague on it, but it's in my own interest). It's one of the reasons I don't want to join the CS/PS - this obstinate view, held by some, that's holding back skill being recognised and not rewarding based on merit.

Firetrap

I used to be in the public service (not now) and it gets my goat when I see the old clichés being trotted out. The public service is a broad church and it's a lazy stereotype to assume that there are people paid to push paper around their desks all day (what sort of job is that anyway ). Yes, the system can be a slow-moving behemoth and there are wasters in its ranks but it's grossly unfair to assume that everyone sits around drinking coffee and doing sudoku all day. Where I worked, there was pressure in the job and we had deadlines to meet. As for promotion, it wasn't on seniority but on merit.

The OP says €26,000 is a rediculous(sic) amount of money for someone to be earning in the passport office. I would like to know what he/she thinks someone working in such a position should be earning? €26,000 isn't a salary to write home about, is it? The average industrial wage in Ireland is €39,000. Try getting a mortgage on twenty six grand and see how far it'll get you. Or even renting in Dublin or Cork.