Dermot Ahern on Guantanamo

Sikamick

Ahern comes under fire on Guantanamo

Herald.ie WebSearch By Cormac Looney


Thursday January 22 2009

Under fire Justice Minister Dermot Ahern now wants to offer homes to prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.

The Minister who was told "to get off his backside" and do something about the Dublin crime crisis by a respected ex garda has now turned his attention to an American problem.

In yesterday's Herald, former Detective Inspector Brian Sherry said Ahern was not doing enough about the explosion in gang violence so far this year.

It's also been revealed within the force that overtime cutbacks have led to a curtailment of armed patrols in the city.

At the same time, many seasoned murder detectives are being tied up on painstaking media leak inquiries.

Now the Justice Minister is busying himself with the idea of taking in inmates the US suspected of being al-Qaida members from Guantanamo.

The Government may be willing to resettle some of the remaining 245 detainees, Minister Ahern said.

"While all countries will have to have regard to difficult security issues which arise, Ireland would, of course, be prepared to play its full part," said Ahern.

Herald columnist Gerry O'Carroll meanwhile said Ahern was increasingly seen as a bumbling "right on" incumbent in the Justice Department.

"First, he makes representations for Real IRA chief Mickey McKevitt, now he wants to take foreign terror suspects in here.

"He made this decision without any recourse to Dail debate or public debate on the matter.

"Why does he want to import an American problem? "It seems strange that in a week when our home grown drugs terrorists declared war on the State in Tallaght and Finglas, that Ahern is more concerned with offering B&B to Middle Eastern terror suspects.

"He'd be better occupied getting his own house in order. Criminals are killing almost at will on our streets," he said.

ANDREW LYNCH, PAGE 14

- Cormac Looney

Sparks

Nothing to do with shooting in this, moving to politics.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Nothing to do with shooting in this, moving to politics.

Sparks it has everything to do with shooting if you read the posting it mentions the killings and shooting, the killings and shooting that are casting a shadow on our sport in the eyes of Minister Ahern, and giving him an excuse to take them off us.


Sikamick

Sparks

I read it Sika. So did the other three shooting Mods, and the opinion was unanimous - there's no mention in there of upcoming firearms legislation even in passing, nor is there any of his usual guff blaming legal firearms ownership for the spike in gun crime. It's just got nothing to do with shooting sports and shouldn't be in the Shooting forums.

oscarBravo

It's in Politics now, and I agree with Sparks' take on it. If you're not interested in discussing it from a Politics perspective, let me know and I'll lock the thread.

Sikamick

Sparks point taking but not agreed with.

In Sport


Sikamick

Sikamick

This is very relevant to people in the shooting sports, Minister Ahern is the person that will have the last word on whether we keep our pistol or not.

If you read the article and criticisms from much more eminent people than I re some of his decisions i.e. people being allowed to come to Ireland who have been in Guantanamo possible terrorist, he states this on one hand and on the other he want to penalise law abiding citizens of this country who are legitimate Licensed Firearms Holders.


Sikamick

Sparks

Yes, and if it was cited in that way, it might have been relevant as a footnote in a post on the thread in Shooting on the proposed handgun ban. It wasn't worth starting a thread on it's own, because it has no new information in it and all we could have done is to sit around and go "yeah, he's a right eejit, he is". And frankly, that'd be pushing on an open door by this stage with anyone who has a firearms licence.

lostexpectation

wow the latest news on what two herald loudmouths say

TheNog

I get the feeling the Irish Government are getting in there first to be close to Obama in the hope that Ireland will not suffer the withdrawal of American companies and the inevitable job losses.

It shouldnt have come from Ahern though. Maybe he still feels he can have a sayon Foreign Affairs issues?

PJ Hunter

TheNog wrote: »

I get the feeling the Irish Government are getting in there first to be close to Obama in the hope that Ireland will not suffer the withdrawal of American companies and the inevitable job losses.

It shouldnt have come from Ahern though. Maybe he still feels he can have a sayon Foreign Affairs issues?

TheNog, if the minister is going off on a solo run and not consulting the cabinet it does cause worry. Getting in there first will also get us closer to
Obama but also closer to.......:eek:

"In yesterday's Herald, former Detective Inspector Brian Sherry said Ahern was not doing enough about the explosion in gang violence so far this year.

It's also been revealed within the force that overtime cutbacks have led to a curtailment of armed patrols in the city.

At the same time, many seasoned murder detectives are being tied up on painstaking media leak inquiries." [Ouote Hearld]

If Garda response times are increased, are we, as a result going to have more shooting incendendants. If an Garda are not able to respond fast enough to intercepted gun crime been committed, the result will be more of usual calls to ban licensed hand guns. Indirectly cutbacks, are going to have an effect.:(

Darragh29

We should offer to swop all 245 of the Guantanamo detainees for entire Dail & Seanad membership.

old boy

Darragh29 wrote: »

We should offer to swop all 245 of the Guantanamo detainees for entire Dail & Seanad membership.

i can imagne their views on some bankers and construction guys, plus they may not take long to sort out the drug wars.

Breezer

My gut instinct when I heard this was to ask what the hell Dermot Ahern is thinking. Having since engaged my logical brain, I've come up with pretty much the same question, but phrased more politely: what exactly is Dermot Ahern planning on doing with these people when they come here?

I also doubt cosying up to Obama, if that is what he is at, will have any effect on US multinationals here. The companies will do what's best for their shareholders. Obama will do what's best for America, and if anything that will mean passing legislation making it more advantageous for them to create jobs in America.

PJ Hunter

Breezer wrote: »

My gut instinct when I heard this was to ask what the hell Dermot Ahern is thinking. Having since engaged my logical brain, I've come up with pretty much the same question, but phrased more politely: what exactly is Dermot Ahern planning on doing with these people when they come here?

I also doubt cosying up to Obama, if that is what he is at, will have any effect on US multinationals here. The companies will do what's best for their shareholders. Obama will do what's best for America, and if anything that will mean passing legislation making it more advantageous for them to create jobs in America.

Well Breezer, Getting your colours hoisted first, sends out a strong signal.
These people who have been detained I suspect, will be greatful to
Ireland. This gesture, confirms who we (roi) are naturally inclined to support politically, especially when it comes to politics in the middle east.
Did we not take political people from the middle east several years ago
as part of an UN solution, similar to what is being proposed now.
The Uk is in the process of securing investment / loans from countries
in this region who have gorged, until recently, on $150 per barrel of oil.
I would not be surprised if we (roi) will be knocking on the very same doors.

MoominPapa

Haven't those people suffered enough?

Breezer

PJ Hunter wrote: »

Well Breezer, Getting your colours hoisted first, sends out a strong signal.

Not quite sure what you're referring to here, sorry. Am I hoisting my colours or is Dermot Ahern hoisting his/Ireland's?

These people who have been detained I suspect, will be greatful to
Ireland.

Possibly. Possibly not. I know nothing about them, none of us do, because the US simply shut them up and tortured them, rather than allowing them a fair trial. Are they extremists? If they weren't before, has Guantanamo made them into extremists?

This gesture, confirms who we (roi) are naturally inclined to support politically, especially when it comes to politics in the middle east.

Do we really want to support America's policies in the Middle East (not that we haven't been for years, whether we said we did or not)? I realise Obama is cut from a different cloth than Bush, and so far he has been talking the talk. I just don't think we should suddenly assume that everything is great about America again and make ourselves into its lapdogs. Rather a 'wait and see' approach might be more prudent.

Did we not take political people from the middle east several years ago
as part of an UN solution, similar to what is being proposed now.

Did we? (Genuine question). I honestly don't know much about this, hence my question earlier as to what exactly Ahern is planning.

The Uk is in the process of securing investment / loans from countries
in this region who have gorged, until recently, on $150 per barrel of oil.
I would not be surprised if we (roi) will be knocking on the very same doors.

Perhaps. I have absolutely no idea what our Government is doing regarding the economy any more, nor do most people, because it hasn't told us anything.

I'm openly admitting that I'm not particularly well informed on this issue, and I intend finding out more about it. It just seemed that Ahern rushed into this in an effort to look good before Obama, and I'd like to know the details of his plan.

EDIT: Having looked into this a little further, it appears what he actually said was that if the EU were to adopt a common position, Ireland would be part of it. Frankly I still think this was an effort to look good, and that it would have made more sense to see what the EU position might be before deciding if Ireland will be a part of it. I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea by the way, I just think he's rushing the whole thing.

PJ Hunter

August 07, 2008 Palestinian Jihadist claims assassination attempt


Sources in Ireland,claim Israeli agents attempted to shoot Jihad Jaara, one of most wanted men sent to exile following siege on Church of Nativity in 2002
Palestinian sources have accused Israel of trying to assassinate Jihad Jaara, one of the Palestinian sent to exile following the siege on the Church of the Nativity in 2002, who now resides in Ireland. (One of three)

According to the sources, Jaara escaped an assassination attempt and the Irish police arrested two suspects – a Palestinian from Gaza who has a European citizenship and a Moroccan with a French citizenship.

---

"has Guantanamo made them into extremists? [/quote Breezer] Very possibly the experience will have but this remains to be seen. One reason it is claimed to re-settle and to offer accommodation is that they will be Tortured for sure,possibly executed if they get sent back home!

This is very relevant to people in the shooting sports, Minister Ahern is the person that will have the last word on whether we keep our pistol or not.
[quote, sikamick]

Sikamick

Breezer wrote: »

Possibly. Possibly not. I know nothing about them, none of us do, because the US simply shut them up and tortured them, rather than allowing them a fair trial. Are they extremists? If they weren't before, has Guantanamo made them into extremists?

_________________________________________________________________

Really breezer, do you think they were locked up for selling ice cream on the battlefield.

We have our own home grown terrorist, do you honestly believe that these people from Guantanamo wont be communicating with them or that the criminals/drug dealers wont take advantage of trained assassins.


Re the Title please look at link :http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3163877.stm


Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

Really breezer, do you think they were locked up for selling ice cream on the battlefield.

Actually, it's been found that most of them weren't on battlefields, and damn few of them have anything like the kind of backgrounds the US claim. There are a lot of people in there who are there because their next-door neighbours shopped them for financial rewards to the local US forces with made-up stories of suspicious activities. End result, one neighbour in Guantanamo Bay for several years and another who takes the reward and is exonerated from the debt he owed the first neighbour, and he goes and takes over his neighbour's shop in the meantime. And there are similar tales for the majority of the people being held there.

Guantanamo was run on the assumption that they were capturing enemy combatants in the field thanks to superior military intelligence. That'd be the same military intelligence that said there were WMDs in Iraq...

We have our own home grown terrorist, do you honestly believe that these people from Guantanamo wont be communicating with them or that the criminals/drug dealers wont take advantage of trained assassins.

You have to admit, the kid caught when he was twelve and detained in Guantanamo for six and a half years must have a lot to teach the IRA splinter groups allright...

wes

Sikamick wrote: »

Really breezer, do you think they were locked up for selling ice cream on the battlefield.

You do know who handed these guys over right?

On the one hand we have the Pakistani police, who are as corrupt as they come. They probably handed over a few local trouble makers along with real suspects, hell wouldn't surprise if some of the guys handed over for looking at someones sister the wrong way. Then there is the simple greed element as the US was offering cold hard cash and the police there aren't very well paid.

Then there are the Afghan war lords who would do all of the above as well.

There is every reason that some of the guys in Guantanamo, are innocent of any wrong doing.

Nodin

Sikamick wrote: »

Really breezer, do you think they were locked up for selling ice cream on the battlefield.

The vast majority weren't taken on the "battlefield". In addition a $2000 bounty was paid to any prisoners given over. Hardly an incentive to honesty.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, it's been found that most of them weren't on battlefields, and damn few of them have anything like the kind of backgrounds the US claim. There are a lot of people in there who are there because their next-door neighbours shopped them for financial rewards to the local US forces with made-up stories of suspicious activities. End result, one neighbour in Guantanamo Bay for several years and another who takes the reward and is exonerated from the debt he owed the first neighbour, and he goes and takes over his neighbour's shop in the meantime. And there are similar tales for the majority of the people being held there.

Guantanamo was run on the assumption that they were capturing enemy combatants in the field thanks to superior military intelligence. That'd be the same military intelligence that said there were WMDs in Iraq...
You have to admit, the kid caught when he was twelve and detained in Guantanamo for six and a half years must have a lot to teach the IRA splinter groups allright...

_________________________________________________________________

Sparks I don't want to sound disrespectful but get real on this one, we all know that in civilian prisons and military prisons there will be an element of innocence people unjustly locked up.

But are you trying to tell me all of the 250 or so from Guantanamo are innocent and can the Minister guarantee we will get the one's that have been hard done by?


Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick, I am being as real as I know how to be. The fact is that the majority of those held in Guantanamo have been held there without just cause, and all have been held without due process. It's been the modern equivalent of the internment camps used by the US for their citizens of japanese descent during WW2. It's simply ignoring the evidence gathered to date on the practises employed with regard to Guantanamo to say that the majority of those imprisoned there are hardened, trained terrorists. Noone is saying they are all innocent - but nearly everyone who has looked into this in depth says that the majority of them are.

As to the Minister, well, I think most of us are fairly much in agreement with regard to assessments of his competence, and if the scuttlebutt reported in the media is to be believed, the majority of those who actually work in the DoJ are also in agreement with us.

PJ Hunter

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

Sparks I don't want to sound disrespectful but get real on this one, we all know that in civilian prisons and military prisons there will be an element of innocence people unjustly locked up.

But are you trying to tell me all of the 250 or so from Guantanamo are innocent and can the Minister guarantee we will get the one's that have been hard done by?


Sikamick

Saudi Wahabbists or followers of Wahabbism most certainly cause consern. If they are included with some of the 250 prisoners I think we should err on the side of caution. The americans treated american born Japanese / japanese very badly but nothing as to how allied prisoner of war were tortured by the Japanese military, forced to build railways till they turned skeletal, deseased ridden, starved often executed on a whim. One nights bombing raid over Germany /Japan / London, during the second world war often resulted in thousands incinerated. The world can be very cruel.

http://www.amislam.com/hypocrisy.htm

Sparks

PJ Hunter wrote: »

SThe americans treated american born Japanese / japanese very badly but nothing as to how allied prisoner of war were tortured by the Japanese military, forced to build railways till they turned skeletal, deseased ridden, starved often executed on a whim.

You do realise that the american born Japanese were actually not Japanese, but American, right? And that the US government not only acknowleged that internment was a mistake and officially apologised, but that they eventually paid $1.8 billion in reparations to them and their descendants?

As to the world being cruel, the main reason the world is cruel is that those living in it choose to be cruel, and it's been pretty much proven (in the stanford and milgram experiments for example) that that choice has little to do with ideology, ethnicity, religion or culture. So, for example, if you're a muslim child who's illegally kidnapped and flown to Guantanamo for "interrogation" and held there without rights or due process for nearly seven years, you're as likely to be cruel to someone as if you were an Irish fella sitting on his couch saying that that same child was a dangerous terrorist who shouldn't be afforded food or shelter while his return to his family is arranged.

sfakiaman

I think this is just Ahearn seeking publicity for himself (and possibly making sure of a green card for himself after the next election). The chances of Europe agreeing to take in prisoners, a percentage of whom will be terrorists, is pretty slim so he is safe to make the offer.

Why should the prisoners not be repatriated to their own countries. If they have good reason to fear returning to their own countries, they should explain that to the courts in America before being sent anywhere.

Members of the EU have a right to know about people being granted asylum here and our politicians have a duty to protect us from potential terriorists.

I have great sympathy for anyone falsely imprisoned but would not trust Ahearn to be the arbiter of who may be allowed residence here.

PJ Hunter

Sparks wrote: »

You do realise that the american born Japanese were actually not Japanese, but American, right? And that the US government not only acknowleged that internment was a mistake and officially apologised, but that they eventually paid $1.8 billion in reparations to them and their descendants?

As to the world being cruel, the main reason the world is cruel is that those living in it choose to be cruel, and it's been pretty much proven (in the stanford and milgram experiments for example) that that choice has little to do with ideology, ethnicity, religion or culture. So, for example, if you're a muslim child who's illegally kidnapped and flown to Guantanamo for "interrogation" and held there without rights or due process for nearly seven years, you're as likely to be cruel to someone as if you were an Irish fella sitting on his couch saying that that same child was a dangerous terrorist who shouldn't be afforded food or shelter while his return to his family is arranged.

You do realise that the american born Japanese were actually not Japanese, but American, right? Irish-American, African -
American, Asian-American. Very cosmopolitan country indeed.
Yes.Japan has paid some reparations but on the scale of things if you account for the actual attack on pearl harbour,the large scale of prisoner abuse these are of higher magnitude in
my opinion.

It was claimed 160 of the prisoners are Arab wahabbists. Best to wait
on the UN to report on all the facts releating to who is in Guantanamo.
Do you have these figures.

Individual cases of child abuse . Totally aggree

One should not be a couch pato when it comes to consearned for child rights anywhere!, I have seen punishement clips that would make you sick and this was not Guantanamo bay fottage or any abuse carried out by westeners.

Sikamick

I am sure most of us would like to be able to solve the problems of the world, but my original post was to do with the problems facing our shooting community, specifically Minister Ahern's decision on Licensed pistols.

I started the Evening Herald Thread to draw peoples attention to how much off the mark Ahern is and raise debate among the shooting community, unfortunately it was moved to the politics forum where a lot of shooters may not get to see it.

Below from one of my previous post's.

This is very relevant to people in the shooting sports, Minister Ahern is the person that will have the last word on whether we keep our pistol or not.

If you read the article and criticisms from much more eminent people than I re some of his decisions i.e. people being allowed to come to Ireland who have been in Guantanamo possible terrorist, he states this on one hand and on the other he wants to penalise law abiding citizens of this country who are Legitimate Licensed Firearms Holders.

I also would like to ask who is going to foot the bill for housing and social services for these people if and when the arrive. We cant keep the people in the country in work or look after the one's that are living on the streets in freezing cold conditions.

Sikamick

Grudaire

Sikamick wrote: »

I also would like to ask who is going to foot the bill for housing and social services for these people if and when the arrive. We cant keep the people in the country in work or look after the one's that are living on the streets in freezing cold conditions.

The State of course, and rightly in my opinion. Why shouldn't Ireland at least accept an element of cleaning up Guantanemo Bay, they didn't do enough to stop it in the first place.


And firearm ownership has sweet fcek all to do with it. Hell why not give out about artists grants while you're at it.

shqipshume

What possible power would Ireland have to stop them having it there and imprisoning them in first place?
UN nor Europe did anything and they are are far more influential countries in them than Ireland.
How does it become Irish peoples problem?
You people who think this is the humanitarian thing to do need to wake up and say no!
They are not political refugees and are not proven guilty so why cant they return to their own country? If they are guilty some of them how do we know?