Dermot Ahern on Guantanamo

DeVore

We could tell them the drug pushers are selling E's with an imprint of Mohammed with a bomb as a turbin. Problem solved!

More seriously, this is obviously a political issue with barely even a tenuous link to Shooting, as it was posted.


I dont see why the US doesnt clean up its own mess. I dont have a huge issue with taking in our share of aslyum seekers but frankly, the US created this mess and should clean it up. I would think most of them will return home heros anyway rather then having anything to fear...

DeV.

Grudaire

shqipshume wrote: »

What possible power would Ireland have to stop them having it there and imprisoning them in first place?

I would think that letting planes through Shannon without any attempt to ensure that there wasn't rendition going down

shqipshume wrote: »

They are not political refugees and are not proven guilty so why cant they return to their own country? If they are guilty some of them how do we know?

I haven't gone though the details but as far as I understand it's to do with what will happen when the return to the countries, don't forget that many of the places they come from are war zones

We assume that America won't leave the guilty go free (they barely let the innocent:pac:)

lostexpectation

what ahern needs to do first is stop the policy of giving the usa a free reign to do whatever they want in our counry.

Nodin

1. Fifty-five percent (55%) of the detainees are not determined to have committed any
hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies.
2. Only 8% of the detainees were characterized as al Qaeda fighters. Of the remaining
detainees, 40% have no definitive connection with al Qaeda at all and 18% are have no definitive
affiliation with either al Qaeda or the Taliban.
3. The Government has detained numerous persons based on mere affiliations with a
large number of groups that in fact, are not on the Department of Homeland Security terrorist
watchlist. Moreover, the nexus between such a detainee and such organizations varies considerably.
Eight percent are detained because they are deemed “fighters for;” 30% considered “members of;” a
large majority – 60% -- are detained merely because they are “associated with” a group or groups the
Government asserts are terrorist organizations. For 2% of the prisoners their nexus to any terrorist
group is unidentified.
4. Only 5% of the detainees were captured by United States forces. 86% of the
detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States
custody.
This 86% of the detainees captured by Pakistan or the Northern Alliance were handed over to the
United States at a time in which the United States offered large bounties for capture of suspected
enemies.
5. Finally, the population of persons deemed not to be enemy combatants – mostly
Uighers – are in fact accused of more serious allegations than a great many persons still deemed to
be enemy combatants.

http://law.shu.edu/aaafinal.pdf

There yez go

shqipshume

Cliste wrote: »

I would think that letting planes through Shannon without any attempt to ensure that there wasn't rendition going down



I haven't gone though the details but as far as I understand it's to do with what will happen when the return to the countries, don't forget that many of the places they come from are war zones

We assume that America won't leave the guilty go free (they barely let the innocent:pac:)

And how does that make it Irish peoples problems to let them here they are from war torn country so are many other nationalities and we already have way to much.
They aren't going back because their own country doesn't want them from what i can see! What does that say to you?
There is no reason why they cant go back to their own country they should be there rebuilding their houses and communities not traveling here when we arent even sure if they aren't fricken murders and terrorists we have enough of our own and of other countries all ready!

I wish Irish would stop been the walk overs and get a back bone.
And then what about these guys wives and children or parents.
Ireland's politics is a ticking time bomb,economy ****ed common sense ****ed.
I have no problem with refugees here they aren refugees they are are political prisoners who are not proven nor dis-proven guilty or not.
I don't agree with how they were treated there either.
But lets face are we going to have more people come here and claim benefits and perhaps half hate us?

shqipshume

lostexpectation wrote: »

what ahern needs to do first is stop the policy of giving the usa a free reign to do whatever they want in our counry.

When i was small i remember hearing America wanted to move us all out of Ireland and use it as missile testing site :eek:

Totally agree he is trying to look like the goo die who helps these people and he is not thinking logically that this country is in a mess and e don't need anymore messes to clean.
I for one will not be paying my taxes out for these guys :mad:

Grudaire

shqipshume wrote: »

I wish Irish would stop been the walk overs and get a back bone.
And then what about these guys wives and children or parents.
Ireland's politics is a ticking time bomb,economy ****ed common sense ****ed.
I have no problem with refugees here they aren refugees they are are political prisoners who are not proven nor dis-proven guilty or not.
I don't agree with how they were treated there either.
But lets face are we going to have more people come here and claim benefits and perhaps half hate us?

I on the other hand think that many of the Irish need to take a collective chill pill and look at things from someone else's point of view for once. Backbone is not something in short supply in the country. Where is this assumption that they hate us? Just because [Controversial]you hate them don't mean they hate you[/Controversial]

shqipshume wrote: »

I for one will not be paying my taxes out for these guys :mad:

Grand use my taxes

Nodin

shqipshume wrote: »

I for one will not be paying my taxes out for these guys :mad:

Well, you've no choice in the matter. If its any consolation it was about 4 million Euro to guard Dubya on his 48 hour stint here, and none of us got to opt out of that one either.

shqipshume

Cliste wrote: »

I on the other hand think that many of the Irish need to take a collective chill pill and look at things from someone else's point of view for once. Backbone is not something in short supply in the country. Where is this assumption that they hate us? Just because [Controversial]you hate them don't mean they hate you[/Controversial]



Grand use my taxes

Face facts they aren't all innocent that are in there and they hate anyone who isn't Muslim.
I wasn't talking about Irish people i was talking about the government getting some back bone and not taking people on that there is no plausible reason why they should.Just cause they think it looks good is only reason and they are probably hoping they will get money for their fat pockets.

They have a country to go back to and they we rent refugees before they left so how are they now?

I dont hate them just cause i have an opinion that doesnt want them here doesnt mean i hate them,Who is making assumptions now you are!

They should be at home with their families and in their homes rebuilding it not running away from it.
And how do you know they are innocent? you dont know!

shqipshume

Nodin wrote: »

Well, you've no choice in the matter. If its any consolation it was about 4 million Euro to guard Dubya on his 48 hour stint here, and none of us got to opt out of that one either.

It did? :eek:

Grudaire

shqipshume wrote: »

Face facts they aren't all innocent that are in there and they hate anyone who isn't Muslim

...

And how do you know they are innocent? you dont know!

do you?

Nodin

shqipshume wrote: »

It did? :eek:

O it did indeed.....

Security bill for 18-hour Bush visit tops €4m

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/security-bill-for-18hour-bush-visit-tops-4m-140423.html

Serenity Now!

lostexpectation wrote: »

what ahern needs to do first is stop the policy of giving the usa a free reign to do whatever they want in our counry.

No govt does anything for nothing.

hellboy99

Our government can't even house our own people that are in need and have been on housing lists for months/years and Ahern wants to offer homes to prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.
That's our government all over, help and handouts to foreigners first and screw the Irish :mad:

shqipshume

hellboy99 wrote: »

Our government can't even house our own people that are in need and have been on housing lists for months/years and Ahern wants to offer homes to prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.
That's our government all over, help and handouts to foreigners first and screw the Irish :mad:

Exactly :mad: Thank god someone sees it

Grudaire

shqipshume wrote: »

Exactly :mad: Thank god someone sees it

By the by, I would assume that the Americans would be paying for their upkeep to be fair.

dlofnep

We will NOT house these people, a large portion of which have committed no crime.

Grudaire

dlofnep wrote: »

We will NOT house these people, a large portion of which have committed no crime.

Is this a fact?

I must ask for sources :pac:

shqipshume

Cliste wrote: »

By the by, I would assume that the Americans would be paying for their upkeep to be fair.

Seriously wouldn't have a problem with it but we cant be sure can we that they aren't what they say they are and also not like Ireland is in much fit state to be taking on anymore here right now.
Also the government wont let half the ones we have here already work so instead of them making their own way they bring them in and stick them in houses in clumps and ghettos are forming already in some areas.Just from what i have seen its not working.
We don't always have to be politically correct to be not racist We know we arent most of world knows we arent and they wont think bad of us if we dont take them in.
I doubt america has the money either for paying for upkeep of asylum seekers here in Ireland

OhNoYouDidn't

shqipshume wrote: »

I doubt america has the money either for paying for upkeep of asylum seekers here in Ireland

They are not asylum seekers. They are guys who have been unjustly detained by the US military. The new President has decided to release them and it is considered unsafe to send some of them home. As a result the US is giving them a new start and we have offered to help out, either for brownie points or because we are complicit.

jimmy-jazz

Sikamick wrote: »

I also would like to ask who is going to foot the bill for housing and social services for these people if and when the arrive. We cant keep the people in the country in work or look after the one's that are living on the streets in freezing cold conditions.

the same people who helped in getting them there.

did you miss your tax that went to subsidisng the US military landings in shannon? thought not.

jimmy-jazz

shqipshume wrote: »

I for one will not be paying my taxes out for these guys :mad:

you already paid taxes to send them to guantanamo ye ****in narrow minded ****. why not let them come and thank you.

SeanW

did you miss your tax that went to subsidisng the US military landings in shannon? thought not.

Actually it's the other way around - Shannon Airport has been a millstone around Ireland's neck since it opened, in particular, with the Western professional victims lobby out to screw Dublin (and it's airport) at every turn for the past 60 years. Check out the history of the Shannon Stopover and Dublin Airport's main runway (Deliberately the lowest spec of any main runway of any main airport of any capital city in Europe, intended to force traffic to Shannon) for more details.

The U.S. military provides Shannon Airport with a large amount of its revenue - and plugging a big hole in the airports finances. Were they not doing so, and were Shannon's finances as far in the red as they would be without them, the Western whingers lobby would be out baying for (more of) Dublin's blood (yet again). These revenues and the increased use of the airport by Ryanair just wallpaper over the fact that putting your nations largest and highest specification airport in a boggy estuary far away from the main population centres and transportation grid is a stupid idea that should never have happened.

shqipshume wrote: »

And how do you know they are innocent? you dont know!

How do you know they were guilty? That's the whole problem, and something that you might be overlooking - these people have been held for years without charge, have had no opportunity to face their accuser or get a fair hearing, most probably tortured, stuck in a legal limbo of "Enemy combatant" status, where they had neither the rights of a civil criminal suspect nor of a Prisoner of War.

There are only 245 of these individuals still in Gitmo. Some of them, to be sure, are guilty. Some are innocent. Some no doubt were innocent when they went in, but became bitter and hateful having lost up to 7 years of their lives to torture and isolation.

Ideally I think that if a prosecutor in the U.S. government thinks there is a case against any of these individuals, they should have a fair trial in a civil court under normal U.S. law, now. The rest IMHO should be released ASAP.

Pro rata, Ireland's share of these detainees would be very small, no more than 20. Even though I'm not a huge fan of (Islamic) immigration, this is a genuine case. It's an absolute mess and I have no objection to Ireland helping clean it up where the U.S. and/or detainee home countries cannot.
All the same I'd feel a lot better if the intellegence services kept an eye on these guys as and when they move here.

Grudaire

shqipshume wrote: »

I doubt america has the money either for paying for upkeep of asylum seekers here in Ireland

They've kept them in accommodation in the lovely resort in the Gulf of Mexico for how many years, with how many people taking care of them!? I think that they can take some from the 500bn that they plan to revive their economy with and still have enough:rolleyes:


And fcuk the rest of the world, who cares what they think of us, I'd not be doing this for them:)

shqipshume

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

They are not asylum seekers. They are guys who have been unjustly detained by the US military. The new President has decided to release them and it is considered unsafe to send some of them home. As a result the US is giving them a new start and we have offered to help out, either for brownie points or because we are complicit.

Then what grounds are they getting to come here,Not like the Irish government is going to let them work! And how do you know they have been unjustly anything? You dont know!
Then let America have them all they are big enough let them clean their own mess!;)
Question why is it considered unsafe to send them home,they would be heros either way in their own country.

shqipshume

jimmy-jazz wrote: »

you already paid taxes to send them to guantanamo ye ****in narrow minded ****. why not let them come and thank you.

No i am not i am honest about how i see it and i am right and even Americans agree with me on the subject.We do not have to constantly be politically correct country we can say no when its not in our favour to help out.What are they going to bring to the country? They wont be allowed work here so why bring a load of people in from another country and leave them rot away on welfare just to look good in eyes of the world?
Cop on i am very open minded about whole thing.You are coming across as the closed minded one.

Serenity Now!

shqipshume wrote: »

Question why is it considered unsafe to send them home,they would be heros either way in their own country.

I know this is away from the subject of the thread but lets use Pakistan as an example. Would a Pakistani individual who has been in Gitmo, be they innocent or guilty, be treated like a hero? Not for a second. They'd be gulped up by the ISI before you can say 'Shannon Airport'. How about Afghanistan? Jordan? Saudi Arabia?

shqipshume

SeanW wrote: »

Actually it's the other way around - Shannon Airport has been a millstone around Ireland's neck since it opened, in particular, with the Western professional victims lobby out to screw Dublin (and it's airport) at every turn for the past 60 years. Check out the history of the Shannon Stopover and Dublin Airport's main runway (Deliberately the lowest spec of any main runway of any main airport of any capital city in Europe, intended to force traffic to Shannon) for more details.

The U.S. military provides Shannon Airport with a large amount of its revenue - and plugging a big hole in the airports finances. Were they not doing so, and were Shannon's finances as far in the red as they would be without them, the Western whingers lobby would be out baying for (more of) Dublin's blood (yet again). These revenues and the increased use of the airport by Ryanair just wallpaper over the fact that putting your nations largest and highest specification airport in a boggy estuary far away from the main population centres and transportation grid is a stupid idea that should never have happened.

How do you know they were guilty? That's the whole problem, and something that you might be overlooking - these people have been held for years without charge, have had no opportunity to face their accuser or get a fair hearing, most probably tortured, stuck in a legal limbo of "Enemy combatant" status, where they had neither the rights of a civil criminal suspect nor of a Prisoner of War.

There are only 245 of these individuals still in Gitmo. Some of them, to be sure, are guilty. Some are innocent. Some no doubt were innocent when they went in, but became bitter and hateful having lost up to 7 years of their lives to torture and isolation.

Ideally I think that if a prosecutor in the U.S. government thinks there is a case against any of these individuals, they should have a fair trial in a civil court under normal U.S. law, now. The rest IMHO should be released ASAP.

Pro rata, Ireland's share of these detainees would be very small, no more than 20. Even though I'm not a huge fan of (Islamic) immigration, this is a genuine case. It's an absolute mess and I have no objection to Ireland helping clean it up where the U.S. and/or detainee home countries cannot.
All the same I'd feel a lot better if the intellegence services kept an eye on these guys as and when they move here.

You see i have no problem with immigration from anyone if they have desire to come here and are allowed to work and make a life here.Bringing in people from that prison although is a very bad choice in my opinion.
Have their trials then before they are allowed in anywhere.
Its not like they have even asked them if they wanna come maybe they want to go home to their families.Remember then what happens to their families at home are they going to bring them over to?
If not it wil be just a matter of them coming here and sending money there from their welfare checks.Same old thing all over again money going out of the country and contry in a shambles.
There is so many degrees and levels from where this all scales back to,and so many reasons why they shouldnt be brought here.

shqipshume

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I know this is away from the subject of the thread but lets use Pakistan as an example. Would a Pakistani individual who has been in Gitmo, be they innocent or guilty, be treated like a hero? Not for a second. They'd be gulped up by the ISI before you can say 'Shannon Airport'. How about Afghanistan? Jordan? Saudi Arabia?

How do you know? Do you know anyone from there.I do

shqipshume

Cliste wrote: »

They've kept them in accommodation in the lovely resort in the Gulf of Mexico for how many years, with how many people taking care of them!? I think that they can take some from the 500bn that they plan to revive their economy with and still have enough:rolleyes:


And fcuk the rest of the world, who cares what they think of us, I'd not be doing this for them:)

I have not said i agreed with the way things were handled over there and do not agree with them been held for so many years without trial.Again not Irish peoples fault.Thats the Americans who should be held accountable on that.And therefore they should be given homes in America if they have no desire to return home.

Who would you be doing it for?