Boycotting Israeli Goods

munchester29

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Source? I do hope so, but the point is that someone within the Israeli power structure tried to have them banned.

Source:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129551

As for trying to have them banned: That’s politics for you, and the difference between a democratic country and non democratic countries – you can try to ban, but democracy won’t allow it.

By the way – Israel actually banned the Kahana party from participating in the elections because of their racist agenda. That was a Jewish party.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I have no time for Iran's intolerence (I know...) but to suggest it is not a democracy because it has the death penalty or is restrictive is false.

Also, its quite surreal to see defenders of Israel deriding other countries based on religious law.

Do you think that a country that executes gays can be considered democratic?
You don’t think it goes against the second principle I quoted - “that all members enjoy universally recognized freedoms and liberties”?

Israel is not based on religious law. The only area of life religious law has any say in is religion related - marriage and divorce between Jews, conversion to Judaism, etc

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Sanctions and boycotss helped and symbolically told the blacks in SA that they were not alone. I personally want to do my part, however small, to register my disgust at Isreal and its actions.

That’s your right, thank god for democracy.
I really wish that someone makes up a list of Israeli products that you can’t use anymore. I think you will find your life will get much more complicated…

munchester29

ionix5891 wrote: »

so who lives in them houses that are being built and occupied by non palestinians in the west bank?

Can you give examples from, lets say, the last 4 years?

ionix5891 wrote: »

for an "enlightened" people they sure like taking a kick out of killing people and using weapons with phosporous and depleted uranium in civilian populations

WP use is not illegal if used for smoke screens. There is no proof that Israel used them for anything else. Depleted uranium usage has also been discussed in the military forum enough times.

ionix5891 wrote: »

next you be saying that it was the palestinians who bombed the UN school where the UN chief recently made an address
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/jan/21/ban-ki-moon-gaza

They didn’t bomb it, but Hamas fired at Israel from next to it, showing their disregard to their own people lives yet again.
Hamas didn’t pull the trigger, but they sure tried their best to get Palestinians killed to support their PR war on Israel.

ionix5891 wrote: »

@munchester you shown time and time again that you are one cold hearted person, how much are the Israeli paying you? whats your beef in this??

I’m a realistic person, not cold hearted. I don’t let emotions rule over my logic, or at least I try.

My “beef” in this is very simple.
I hate terrorists and terrorist organizations – they are the bane of the free democratic world.
I’m also familiar enough with the area and the parties involved in the conflict to know that peace will never come to the area if people keep on supporting what Hamas is doing and keep on finding excuses to why their terrorist attacks on Israel are justified.

munchester29

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I know who he is, but someone living and working in Isreal might not be the most impartial observer....

Tutu - what say you?

Tutu is a very nice person, I'm not so sure as to what he actually knows about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Can you please supply a link to what he says?

ionix5891

concussion wrote: »

Hamas use phosphorus in their weapons aswell. And there are no substantiated evidence of depleted uranium use.

[citation needed]

i try to backup all my points with links and sources please do the same

OhNoYouDidn't

munchester29 wrote: »

Source:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129551

As for trying to have them banned: That’s politics for you, and the difference between a democratic country and non democratic countries – you can try to ban, but democracy won’t allow it.

By the way – Israel actually banned the Kahana party from participating in the elections because of their racist agenda. That was a Jewish party.

But its a fundamentally anti-democratic element of society to even have a body that gets to decided what parties can and cant run.

I don't think they should be banning Kahana either.

munchester29 wrote: »

Do you think that a country that executes gays can be considered democratic?
You don’t think it goes against the second principle I quoted - “that all members enjoy universally recognized freedoms and liberties”?

Israel is not based on religious law. The only area of life religious law has any say in is religion related - marriage and divorce between Jews, conversion to Judaism, etc

You quoted one line from an individuals definition of democracy. I don't think that the law of a land (which I oppose of course) is an arbitrator of whether the policical system is democratic or not.

Google Schumpterian Democracy for whats probably the best definition.

munchester29 wrote: »

That’s your right, thank god for democracy.
I really wish that someone makes up a list of Israeli products that you can’t use anymore. I think you will find your life will get much more complicated…

Other than not taking the Luas, there will be zero impact on me. I don't buy guns, so there aint much left.

munchester29

Nodin wrote: »

I'm sure in your own mind you did. However I've seen nothing to suggest that I'm wrong.

You never do.

Nodin wrote: »

...so by doing good and being a "democracy" you can build up Brownie points. Then when you do something bad, say for over 4 decades, you can cash them in against that.....This truly is a unique idea. I'm just amazed nobody here has come out with it when up for burgalry and the like......certainly it would help with overcrowding in the prisons.

Well, let me surprise you, the concept is actually practiced in courts and prisons - you know, stuff like a 1/3 off for good behaviour, amnesty petitions, reduced sentencing because of special circumstances and considerations, etc. People even get off because of insanity claims, so Israel can always claim the Palestinians made it go crazy:D

OhNoYouDidn't

munchester29 wrote: »

My “beef” in this is very simple.
I hate terrorists and terrorist organizations – they are the bane of the free democratic world.
I’m also familiar enough with the area and the parties involved in the conflict to know that peace will never come to the area if people keep on supporting what Hamas is doing and keep on finding excuses to why their terrorist attacks on Israel are justified.

Can you see where left leaning people like me are coming from here, just out of interest?

OhNoYouDidn't

munchester29 wrote: »

Tutu is a very nice person, I'm not so sure as to what he actually knows about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Can you please supply a link to what he says?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm

ionix5891

Ironically I am after getting an email from an Israeli company from Herzlia asking for my business

Dear <snip>,

My name is Eliel <snip>, Account Manager at <snip>, a subsidiary of <snip> Digital.

I have recently been going through our partners in the <snip> system, and I was particularly impressed by your account. I wanted to discuss the possibility of adding our sister company, <snip>, as one of your <snip> advertisers

...

what to do what to do

Nodin

munchester29 wrote: »

You never do.
Well, let me surprise you, the concept is actually practiced in courts and prisons - you know, stuff like a 1/3 off for good behaviour, amnesty petitions, reduced sentencing because of special circumstances and considerations, etc. People even get off because of insanity claims, so Israel can always claim the Palestinians made it go crazy:D

Indeed, which is why we call for a boycott and sanctions, rather than for the place to be bombed into the dust, or some such nonsense.

munchester29

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Can you see where left leaning people like me are coming from here, just out of interest?

Sure. I think it is only natural and human to identify with people who are suffering, and to push for their suffering to end.

It's also human nature to identify with the underdog, but it's not always the right or just thing to do.

I think that many people identify with the Palestinians in this conflict purely because they are the ones who suffer the most. In 1948 & 1967 (even in 1973) people identified with Israel for the same reason, and now the wheels have turned.

ionix5891

@ munchester29

thanks for answering my question, i would agree to some extent that terrorists are usually not a nice bunch are Hamas are fairly extreme, but you have to remember that the Terrorist word was misused alot in the last few years, and we see pictures and videos of dead children who can not possibly be Hammas, or bombed out UN compounds and one has to ask where their deaths necessary and the how can anyone justify these murders


maybe one day theyll realise that killing people wont help, and sit down and negotiation, hell it worked here in Ireland

OhNoYouDidn't

You know this is probably the most civilised debate on this topic in the history of the internet.

No-one has called anyone an anti-semite or a babykiller or anything. Well done all, keep up the good work!

OhNoYouDidn't

munchester29 wrote: »

I think that many people identify with the Palestinians in this conflict purely because they are the ones who suffer the most. In 1948 & 1967 (even in 1973) people identified with Israel for the same reason, and now the wheels have turned.

Why do you think that is? Where did the sympathy go?

munchester29

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm

Thanks for the link.

munchester29

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Why do you think that is? Where did the sympathy go?

It's just human nature - you see someone suffering and your immediate response would be to identify with them (assuming you don’t have a chunk of ice for a heart).

I'll give you an example from a nature film – when people see a lion hunting down a gazelle, most of them would feel sorry for the gazelle, and will identify to a degree with its pain. Does it make the hunting lion wrong or unjust?

It doesn’t – the lion hunts to survive. But it is in our nature to feel pity for the gazelle because of its suffering and dying.

OhNoYouDidn't

munchester29 wrote: »

It's just human nature - you see someone suffering and your immediate response would be to identify with them (assuming you don’t have a chunk of ice for a heart).

I'll give you an example from a nature film – when people see a lion hunting down a gazelle, most of them would feel sorry for the gazelle, and will identify to a degree with its pain. Does it make the hunting lion wrong or unjust?

It doesn’t – the lion hunts to survive. But it is in our nature to feel pity for the gazelle because of its suffering and dying.

Or maybe people see the occupation and theft of land as repugnant and immoral and feel that the Palestinians are being made suffer for the crimes of others?

concussion

ionix5891 wrote: »

[citation needed]

i try to backup all my points with links and sources please do the same

This was already discussed in the other thread so I brought it up as a gentle reminder.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3656311,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055561.html


A Norweigan doctor reported that some of the wounded had been injured by depleted uranium - that was at the start of January and there has been no mention since. Compounding that is the fact that you would need a laboratory to confirm the presence of uranium - there was no analysis mentioned in the article and I imagine such detailed work would be difficult to do in Gaza.

oscarBravo

I'm having trouble seeing the point of this thread. It's basically a rehash of the other one. Can anyone give me a compelling reason to leave it open?

IRISH RAIL

Indeed as a DU shell is mainly used for anti tank anti armour purposes
yhere is very limited usage for them in operation Cast Lead

as for the poster who says the tram system is for Jews only
I would love to see your sources for that oh wait let me guess wehateisrael.org

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Indeed as a DU shell is mainly used for anti tank anti armour purposes
yhere is very limited usage for them in operation Cast Lead

as for the poster who says the tram system is for Jews only
I would love to see your sources for that oh wait let me guess wehateisrael.org

tut tut tut. a simple google search would have found you plenty on it.

http://www.labournet.net/world/0608/tram1.html

I assume you will retract the claim that I hate Israel?

ionix5891

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm having trouble seeing the point of this thread. It's basically a rehash of the other one. Can anyone give me a compelling reason to leave it open?

Its shorter? so far...

+ Boards Ltd makes more revenue due to increased advertising pageviews :P (profiting from the I/P conflict?)

tallaght01

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

two entirely different debates.

I agree with you on seat goods, but thats not whats being talked about here.

The BIG campaign is specifically to target the economy of an apartheid state that recently slaughtered 300 children via a boycott campaign and lobby for economic sanctions.

I was just curious about the value system that applies greater worth to Palestinian life than those in Sub-Sharan Africa. Or thinking that a short sharp boycott of Israeli exports (for which they don't rely on for a lot of the funding for their arms) would be more effective than a long term boycott of sweat shop goods (who are solely dependent on us buying).

In principle I think boycotts can work, on a large scale. My parents were boycotting goods from SA before most to help end apartheid.

I was just curious about how you assign value to life.

But, go ahead and knock yourself out.

tallaght01

It should be left open as it's a politics forum, and someone is suggesting one of the methods of political activism that has actually worked in the past.

IRISH RAIL

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

tut tut tut. a simple google search would have found you plenty on it.

http://www.labournet.net/world/0608/tram1.html

I assume you will retract the claim that I hate Israel?

first of all show me where I said you hate Israel ?

secondly do you honostly expect anyone to believe the joke of a link you provided just look at the list of "authours" if that is the correct term also there is nothing that states Jews only in those articles did you even read the link yourself ?
and the false claims by the IPSC that they stopped driver training what a joke its only suspended not stoped

oscarBravo

tallaght01 wrote: »

It should be left open as it's a politics forum, and someone is suggesting one of the methods of political activism that has actually worked in the past.

Sure, but beyond the OP there has been relatively little discussion of a boycott, and lots of rehashing of the debate over who's the real bad guy.

I could demand that the thread stay on-topic, but that's predicated on the assumption that a boycott is warranted, which would require that I take that side in the debate.

Alternatively, the thread could be allowed to debate whether or not a boycott is warranted - in which case it's a rehash of the other thread.

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

first of all show me where I said you hate Israel ?

secondly do you honostly expect anyone to believe the joke of a link you provided just look at the list of "authours" if that is the correct term

you asked me did I get the story from "wehateisrael.org". I selected a story from the hundreds google threw up via a simple search with an Irish interest. Specifically Irish tram drivers refusing to train drivers of a route that non-settlers would be prohibited from using.

This debate was cordial and interesting, so far you are the only person who has resorted to this kind of nonsense.

IRISH RAIL

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm having trouble seeing the point of this thread. It's basically a rehash of the other one. Can anyone give me a compelling reason to leave it open?

no none at all there was even plenty of mentions of boycotting in the other thread.

tallaght01

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sure, but beyond the OP there has been relatively little discussion of a boycott, and lots of rehashing of the debate over who's the real bad guy..

I'm begining to agree with you, actually.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I could demand that the thread stay on-topic, but that's predicated on the assumption that a boycott is warranted, which would require that I take that side in the debate.

Alternatively, the thread could be allowed to debate whether or not a boycott is warranted - in which case it's a rehash of the other thread.

surely a boycott thread being left open doesn't imply that you agree with it?

OhNoYouDidn't

tallaght01 wrote: »

I was just curious about the value system that applies greater worth to Palestinian life than those in Sub-Sharan Africa. Or thinking that a short sharp boycott of Israeli exports (for which they don't rely on for a lot of the funding for their arms) would be more effective than a long term boycott of sweat shop goods (who are solely dependent on us buying).

In principle I think boycotts can work, on a large scale. My parents were boycotting goods from SA before most to help end apartheid.

I was just curious about how you assign value to life.

But, go ahead and knock yourself out.

You are making an assumption that me supporting a boycott of Israel means I don't boycott other things, in this case sweat goods. Its not zero sum, why can't I do both?

Boycotting sweat shop products is a stand against the idea of mass manufacturing in harsh conditions for peanuts wherever they are.

This campaign is specific to a trading partner of Ireland whose behaviour has crossed a line for many. The last time a country treated its citizens in such a manner was South Africa, and the idea is to try and repeat the co-ordinated objections to that.