Ken Shamrock - Just Let It Go?

Raze_them_all

rovert wrote: »

His last five fights he can’t withstand punches to the head without his body shutting down on him prematurely.

Exactly how many punches to the head should anybody be able to take before there body shuts down at the peoper time?

rovert

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Exactly how many punches to the head should anybody be able to take before there body shuts down at the peoper time?

Im speaking in the relative standards of the sport and Shamrock's entire career.

Keith C

been a follower of this sport for a few years, ive no mma experiance myself but enjoy talking about the sport & showing it to friends who have never seen it before esp the boxing fans
just wanted to make the point that every sport has fans/critics yet the impression i get from this forum is that unless you fight some kind of contact sport your opinion isnt worth 2 cent, let alone say anything negative bout a fighter cause you've never been in a cage??
Roverts posts, imho, seem factually based & why everyone getting so bitchy (the age comment is just sad) amazes me

ginoginelli

ken shamrocks m.o his past 10 fights:

Throws personal insults at his opponent pre fight

Claims to be in the best shape he has ever been.

gets beaten up in the cage and looks for the first opportunity to quit.

Claims a bad ref stoppage.



Dont be surprised if Ross Clifton beats him down. Nethertheless if the man wants to fight, let him. He doesnt have to worry about tarnishing his record. Hes already done that. The guy really is just embarrassing himself at this stage.

rovert

ginoginelli wrote: »

ken shamrocks m.o his past 10 fights:

Throws personal insults at his opponent pre fight

Claims to be in the best shape he has ever been.

gets beaten up in the cage and looks for the first opportunity to quit.

Claims a bad ref stoppage.

Well said.

All Ken has left is his mouth. He can talk up a fight like no ones business.

chopperbyrne

Ken is risking his long term mental health at this stage.

Yes, a knockout at any stage is bad and can potentially lead to serious health issues regardless of the fighters age or physical health.

Ken however, has been repeatedly knocked out in his past few fights and even before that was taking far too many shots to the head in his fights.

He is a legend and an inspiration to many, but do any of the people who defended his decision to continue fighting want to see their hero end up a stuttering mess?

It's time for him to give up competitive MMA and focus on training the next generation of fighters.

arybvtcw0eolkf

rovert wrote: »

He is facing brain damage from another first round KO or TKO.

I've had a few pints tonight, so I'm probably looking at a bit of brain damage too (or at least it will feel that way tomorrow).

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday this week I'll risk more joint damage training in a sport I love, and in a sport where I'll likely NEVER (at this stage) get to even national championship level.

But I love it, because inside I'm still fighting. I'm fighting against my opponents on the mat, I'm fighting against my doctors/physio's advice, I'm fighting agaist my families wishes and I'm even fighting against CowzerP's slagging.

When should I give it all up?.

When I was kickboxing I was never knocked out, but I've likely received thousends upon thousend of punches to the head, in my late thirties I found it harder and hard to make weight and I'd diet like a lunatic for weeks on end, risking my health... Should I have gave up then?.

Rovert, I don't think you understand why (regardless of style) we all do this and continue to love it.

Raze_them_all

Mairt wrote: »

I've had a few pints tonight, so I'm probably looking at a bit of brain damage too (or at least it will feel that way tomorrow).

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday this week I'll risk more joint damage training in a sport I love, and in a sport where I'll likely NEVER (at this stage) get to even national championship level.

But I love it, because inside I'm still fighting. I'm fighting against my opponents on the mat, I'm fighting against my doctors/physio's advice, I'm fighting agaist my families wishes and I'm even fighting against CowzerP's slagging.

When should I give it all up?.

When I was kickboxing I was never knocked out, but I've likely received thousends upon thousend of punches to the head, in my late thirties I found it harder and hard to make weight and I'd diet like a lunatic for weeks on end, risking my health... Should I have gave up then?.

Rovert, I don't think you understand why (regardless of style) we all do this and continue to love it.

I think it comes down to this one true fact. fans have one opinion and understanding

Those of us that have competed have a completely different opinion and understanding.

rovert

The last two posts are totally absurd and ignorant. You are making judgements about me without knowing anything about me and bypassing factual infomation whilst doing so.

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I think it comes down to this one true fact. fans have one opinion and understanding

Those of us that have competed have a completely different opinion and understanding.

Did you even read what I wrote in this thread? Other MMA fighters including one of his students thinks Shamrock shouldn’t be fighting. So to saw there is one opinion for fighters and another for fans is totally delusional.

Roper

Keith C wrote: »

just wanted to make the point that every sport has fans/critics yet the impression i get from this forum is that unless you fight some kind of contact sport your opinion isnt worth 2 cent, let alone say anything negative bout a fighter cause you've never been in a cage??
Roverts posts, imho, seem factually based & why everyone getting so bitchy (the age comment is just sad) amazes me

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to back it up with sources and facts. Rovert has said that if he gets KOed r TKOed one more time he'll get brain damage. That sounds like a medical opinion to me so maybe he has access to Ken's MRI scans? If so he should post or stfu.

rovert

Roper wrote: »

Rovert has said that if he gets KOed r TKOed one more time he'll get brain damage.

I didnt say that Roper, I said:

How many times to I have to say this he was TKO or KO in his last 5 fights in one sided affairs. He is risking brain damage. He cant withstand punches to the head.

and

In relation to the consequences of him fighting again:

He is facing brain damage from another first round KO or TKO.

I never said "one more time he'll get brain damage."

Keith C

Mairt wrote: »

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday this week I'll risk more joint damage training in a sport I love, and in a sport where I'll likely NEVER (at this stage) get to even national championship level.

But I love it, because inside I'm still fighting. I'm fighting against my opponents on the mat, I'm fighting against my doctors/physio's advice, I'm fighting agaist my families wishes and I'm even fighting against CowzerP's slagging.

so what your saying (or my interpetation) is you'll never compete at national level so its a hobby you love doing yet doctors family etc are advicing to give it up. so youre being given profesional advice to "retire" yet you continue to ignore everyone
you say "inside im still fighting" are you trying to prove something to someone??
Hope you don't reply proving "to myself" or some muck like that, realise your age (forty odd) & don't put your health at risk, as you said yourself a decent level of competition is beyond you.

agardiner22

imagine the pain you will cause your family if anything happens, you can still love something and change the way u do it

ginoginelli

Keith C wrote: »

been a follower of this sport for a few years, ive no mma experiance myself but enjoy talking about the sport & showing it to friends who have never seen it before esp the boxing fans
just wanted to make the point that every sport has fans/critics yet the impression i get from this forum is that unless you fight some kind of contact sport your opinion isnt worth 2 cent, let alone say anything negative bout a fighter cause you've never been in a cage??

I had been reading on this forum for some time before I posted and I've noticed this too. We have some posters here who have been training for some time, or have x amount of posts, that refuse to listen to reason and seem to think their words are infallible..

The other side of the coin is we get some really informed poster too, that obviously have a high knowledge of the sport, but dont shove it down your throat..

Try not to take it to heart anyway, its still a decent forum!

Mikel

Mairt wrote: »

I've had a few pints tonight, so I'm probably looking at a bit of brain damage too (or at least it will feel that way tomorrow).

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday this week I'll risk more joint damage training in a sport I love, and in a sport where I'll likely NEVER (at this stage) get to even national championship level.

But I love it, because inside I'm still fighting. I'm fighting against my opponents on the mat, I'm fighting against my doctors/physio's advice, I'm fighting agaist my families wishes and I'm even fighting against CowzerP's slagging.

When should I give it all up?.

When I was kickboxing I was never knocked out, but I've likely received thousends upon thousend of punches to the head, in my late thirties I found it harder and hard to make weight and I'd diet like a lunatic for weeks on end, risking my health... Should I have gave up then?.

Rovert, I don't think you understand why (regardless of style) we all do this and continue to love it.

That's an interesting post and explains some of why Couture and guys like him are so popular, even Coleman after last week.
I think some people relate a little to what these guys do and admire their longevity, and i take my hat off to Ken for still having the drive to keep going.

I certainly don't think he should listen to keyboard warriors writing him off, some of these same people gave Randy no chance against Tito and look what happened.
There are many athletes who were considered past it who came back and showed otherwise.

That said however, there is a legitimate question sometimes of fighters not knowing when to quit.
I'm not saying it is the case here, but for example did Ali go on too long?
All of Mairts post above could be applied to him too, but few would argue he quit too soon.
He must have been medically cleared though.

Who wants to see Wayne Mc Cullough fight again? When the subject comes up on the boxing forum everyone wants him to quit.
But I'll bet he could get medical clearance to fight.

Fighters can be too brave sometimes

Nothingcompares

Mikel wrote: »

Who wants to see Wayne Mc Cullough fight again? When the subject comes up on the boxing forum everyone wants him to quit.
But I'll bet he could get medical clearance to fight.

Fighters can be too brave sometimes

I think it's because a lot of fans don't want to see these guys fight again because they will lose or only beat guys that are a significant step down in quality. If WMcC and KS were beating the crap out of good guys people wouldn't be asking them to hang up the gloves due to some unconfirmed medical issues.


One of the uk guys said it best "records are for DJs". Fundamentally I think everyone should be supportive of KS if he wants to fight and he should fight at a level he's competitive at. TBH all this medical stuff is nonsense, it's not substantiated anywhere, it's just people making stuff up on the internet. But if fighters do have a medical issue (Wayne) the procedures are in place to prevent them from competing.

cowzerp

Keith C wrote: »

so what your saying (or my interpetation) is you'll never compete at national level so its a hobby you love doing yet doctors family etc are advicing to give it up. so youre being given profesional advice to "retire" yet you continue to ignore everyone
you say "inside im still fighting" are you trying to prove something to someone??
Hope you don't reply proving "to myself" or some muck like that, realise your age (forty odd) & don't put your health at risk, as you said yourself a decent level of competition is beyond you.

Mairt is just stating that all people who are past competition level are wrote off, yes even by doctors-but this is even when there in good shape-Doctors dont recommend combat sports to anyone anyway.

Mairt will stop when his body tells him to stop or else he'll just continue and focus on the technical ends of it, he knows his body better than any physio or doctor, Ken is physically fine to fight on and should be allowed if he is medically fit.

Personally if i was him(ken) i'd retire from competition and focus on training up and comers. but he'll do that when he feels he has nothing left to offer, i dont fear brain damage for him at all, some boxers have took more punches to the head in 1 fight than Ken has in his own career.

Ageism lives on, and Mairt-that does not mean im going to lay of you!

rovert

Nothingcompares wrote: »

If WMcC and KS were beating the crap out of good guys people wouldn't be asking them to hang up the gloves due to some unconfirmed medical issues.

As that would involve Ken actually being able to defend himself in fights and not getting KO'd early. It would be difficult to ask someone who was "beating the crap out of good guys" to hang up the gloves as the toll of fights on their bodies most likely wouldn’t be as apparent compared to say a person who has knocked out early in his last 5 fights.

Nothingcompares wrote: »

TBH all this medical stuff is nonsense, it's not substantiated anywhere, it's just people making stuff up on the internet.

Ok so his last 5 fights are inventions of the internet along with the comments by his colleagues saying he can no longer take punches to the head and should stop fighting. How can this be described as nonsense exactly?

cowzerp wrote: »

i dont fear brain damage for him at all, some boxers have took more punches to the head in 1 fight than Ken has in his own career.

Ken has had a succession of knock outs late in his career and you dont fear brain damage? Ok then.

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

Ken has had a succession of knock outs late in his career and you dont fear brain damage? Ok then.

Technical Knock outs, that is not the same thing as been knocked unconscious, Ken shows no signs of mental deteriotion.

Pride Fighter

cowzerp wrote: »

Technical Knock outs, that is not the same thing as been knocked unconscious, Ken shows no signs of mental deteriotion.

QFT, TKO's involve the ref stopping the fight, in no way was Ken KO'd. I suppose the people saying Ken should hang up his gloves should say Fedor should hang up his too for being TKO'd by Tsuyoshi Kohsaka:rolleyes:

ginoginelli

cowzerp wrote: »

Ken shows no signs of mental deteriotion.

This made me laugh..:D

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

Technical Knock outs, that is not the same thing as been knocked unconscious.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

QFT, TKO's involve the ref stopping the fight, in no way was Ken KO'd.:

Sorry if during my reiterating my points for the nth time that I dropped this distinction in my more recent posts.

cowzerp wrote: »

Ken shows no signs of mental deteriotion.

Except for his inability to take punches to the head. I could get into anecdotal accounts of Ken but they are just anecdotal even though there is a far amount of them.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I suppose the people saying Ken should hang up his gloves should say Fedor should hang up his too for being TKO'd by Tsuyoshi Kohsaka:rolleyes:

No they wouldn’t as it was Fedor's only loss ever and Fedor was only 24 at the time. Ridiclous point here.

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

No they wouldn’t as it was Fedor's only loss ever and Fedor was only 24 at the time. Ridiclous point here.

That was not my point so why did you qoute me for it?
Getting tko#d just proves that ken is not as good as he once was, nothing else. if he was getting KO'D then i'd look at it different.

Mellor

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Sure look at Dan Severn, he is in his 50's and still fights, enjoying wins in the recent past over the likes of Forrest Griffin and Colin Robinson. Should he retire. No he is a legend and is doing the sport he loves and helped pioneer.

Dan Severn has an impressive record. I imagine he is in great shape at 50. But your above post is a little misleading imo. His win over Griffin wasn't recent, it was 7 or 8 years ago. He wasn't in his 50s then either, he was about 43 I'd say. He has a huge weight advantage over Griffin, and it was Griffins first ever pro fight. I'm just trying to put your comments into some sort of perspective.

Pride Fighter

Mellor wrote: »

Dan Severn has an impressive record. I imagine he is in great shape at 50. But your above post is a little misleading imo. His win over Griffin wasn't recent, it was 7 or 8 years ago. He wasn't in his 50s then either, he was about 43 I'd say. He has a huge weight advantage over Griffin, and it was Griffins first ever pro fight. I'm just trying to put your comments into some sort of perspective.

He is nearly 55 now, 7 or 8 years ago he would have still been older than Couture. He is ancient, should he retire? No. Should Ken retire, no.

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

That was not my point so why did you qoute me for it?

My apologies, see edit.

cowzerp wrote: »

Getting tko#d just proves that ken is not as good as he once was, nothing else. if he was getting KO'D then i'd look at it different.

So you'd look at it different if the referee(s) were less cautious about letting Ken continue? If it was an isolated KO'd Id agree with you but it isn’t in this case.

Mellor wrote: »

Dan Severn has an impressive record. I imagine he is in great shape at 50. But your above post is a little misleading imo. His win over Griffin wasn't recent, it was 7 or 8 years ago. He wasn't in his 50s then either, he was about 43 I'd say. He has a huge weight advantage over Griffin, and it was Griffins first ever pro fight. I'm just trying to put your comments into some sort of perspective.

Recently enough Dan had a fight canceled on him by the State Commission due the fact his opponent as not as experienced as Dan was (who is ) and to the best of my knowledge that opponent had more experience than Griffin did when he fought Dan.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

He is nearly 55 now, 7 or 8 years ago he would have still been older than Couture. He is ancient, should he retire? No. Should Ken retire, no.

This isnt primarily an age issue. Ive said this already in this thread. Matter of fact I said this in reply to one of your posts:

rovert wrote: »

In my opinion Severn shouldn’t retire as he still has successful and competitive fights without putting his health in jeopardy relatively speaking. I don’t think the question of should someone retire should be answered by "No he is a legend and is doing the sport he loves and helped pioneer."

JayX

You know, fighting is a dangerous business. Anytime you step into a ring/cage and engage in full-contact combat there is always going to be a risk of sustaining serious injury.

Ken Shamrock, as far as I'm concerned has nothing to prove to anybody. People talking about him "tarnishing" his record by losing is disappointing. He's getting out there and competing because it's what he loves to do. How many people can honestly say that they get paid really well for doing something that they really love to do? If you are man enough to step into the ring/cage and lay it all out there in front of the world, whether you win or lose, you deserve respect, period.

As far as him fighting again goes, that's up to him to decide (assuming he's medically fit). If he's doing it because it's what he wants then people should respect that and leave him to it.

Watching his last fight against Robert Berry, he got caught with good punch and hit the ground and the ref stepped in before he took any serious punishment, but he certainly was not knocked out cold, nor have I ever seen him knocked out cold. I can't say the same for Chuck Liddell, Rampage Jackson, Nate Quarry, Wanderlai Silva, Matt Lindland, or Andre Arlovski... should we tell those guys not to fight anymore too?

I think as long as he's involved with reputable promotions, where fighter safety is paramount, and he's doing it because he wants to and not because he feels like he needs to prove something to the world, there is no reason why he shouldn't carry on. Good luck to him.

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

So you'd look at it different if the referee(s) were less cautious about letting Ken continue? If it was an isolated KO'd Id agree with you but it isn’t in this case.

My point is nothing to do with the refs, its to do with been knocked unconscious regularly would be a sign that he is risking his health, been tko'd shows he's not as good as he once was, its no indicator of his health, the refs are there to look after him and have been doing that and can continue to do it also..

Been TKO'D cant be compared to been knocked out in a health point of view..most tko's just mean he was not defending himself properly.

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

My point is nothing to do with the refs, its to do with been knocked unconscious regularly would be a sign that he is risking his health, been tko'd shows he's not as good as he once was, its no indicator of his health, the refs are there to look after him and have been doing that and can continue to do it also.

Been TKO'D cant be compared to been knocked out in a health point of view..most tko's just mean he was not defending himself properly.

I dont want to repeat myself but the fact that he has been TKO'd four out of his last five fights due to his inability to defend himself and to take punches to his head early in fights would to me indicate an underlying health problem.

Roper

At this stage I'm going to have to ask to see your PhD. You could scan it in and put it up as a jpeg of you like. Also I have this mole on my back that's changed colour that I'd like you to have a look at.