Reloading. Is it going to be allowed?

bunny shooter

Reading a comment by IWM in another thread got me thinking ................

Are we going to be allowed to legally reload anytime soon ?

Discuss..................

My local firearms dealers reckons not a hope as Justice are worried over insurance complications to do with powder storage :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Doubtful at best..Nanny Aherne doesnt want us kiddies to get into reloading.Sure the CIRA might nick it all to make nasty bombs!
Seeing that now all of a sudden handguns are being nicked almost IMO too conviently after it being proved that they were the least stolen firearms.After all doesnt that "prove " to the powers that be that no one of the "mere civillians" can be trusted with firearms storage?[Excluding of course Gardai whose duty firearms are nicked as well]

Seeing that he is now inviting suspected terrorists who are big into infidel shooting to come and live in Ireland after their Club Gitmo holidays,and forwarding letters for convicted terrorists of the same lot who are busily nicking guns around the land.You would wonderWTF is going on at all???
Reloading will stay as secret as the dark arts to us gunowners here for a long while yet.

It wasn't me!

I've heard, unofficially, that there will be clear and distinct procedure with regard to reloading by next winter. It's neither simple nor convenient though, in the outline given to me, so hopefully there's a change somewhere along the way and they concede that we're not all lunatics and can be trusted to do the things our neighbours in every civilised country in the world take for granted.

Sparks

Can't see Aherne being too much of a supporter of it - because I can't see him doing anything that won't help him keep his seat. The DoJ themselves, however, I can see being amenable to it, if not willing to just say "off you go lads, have fun".

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Can't see Aherne being too much of a supporter of it - because I can't see him doing anything that won't help him keep his seat. The DoJ themselves, however, I can see being amenable to it, if not willing to just say "off you go lads, have fun".

I'd be perfectly happy to install secure storage for powder and primers, within reason. If a similar system to that in Britain were in place, I think it'd be great. It's accessible to everyone and we all end up better shooters (;)) as a result, so here's hoping. If it gets put in place, there may well be a place for a 6BR in my cabinet somewhere.

Sparks

The secure storage would only be one third of it though IWM - you'd also need a suitable workspace (though frankly, that's your health and safter so it's just a good idea ), and the other third would be being certified and taking courses in reloading. Put all three together and I could see the DoJ being sympathetic - but I don't honestly think the Minister would care one way or the other.

It wasn't me!

I know a good and secure workspace I can use, completely ventilated and well designed for the purpose, so that's not an issue.

With regard to certification, I have absolutely no issue with that, as long as it's all clearly above board and legitimate and there's direction from the Department as to how to go about certification and such. I'd do it anyway were it not a requirement.

Trojan911

bunny shooter wrote: »

Are we going to be allowed to legally reload anytime soon ?

Don't know the answer but, from my shooting days in London my buddy used to reload all his 9mm and sell some to me & the lads.

I wasn't a fan of reloads as I found them smokier and dirtier for my hand gun and quite a few misfired. Factory loads were the best, albeit a bit more expensive.

It wasn't me!

Trojan911 wrote: »

Don't know the answer but, from my shooting days in London my buddy used to reload all his 9mm and sell some to me & the lads.

I wasn't a fan of reloads as I found them smokier and dirtier for my hand gun and quite a few misfired. Factory loads were the best, albeit a bit more expensive.

Don't mean to criticise your friend, but perhaps it was his skill that caused problems? It's widely accepted that the best is gotten out of a centrefire rifle only by reloading, and I've heard pistol shooters say the same of their own ammo. Of course, part of the problem could be that his load didn't suit your gun, but misfires and such sound more like dodgy primers and components.

ivanthehunter

Well if they're going to take away pistols under the premise that all pistols are bad and you (the public) only have a genuine need for rifles, then let them please include all auxiliaries to this sport as suitable to the modern rifle shooter./

Its only laughable to assume that P&P will be used by Republican groups at this stage.. but be sure of this if a formula is ironed out to allow Johny punch-clock to reload it will be a long winded affair that will only serve to inflate some minsters ego to the Nth degree.

Educational courses about reloading!!! Dont make me laugh, firstly they'd be better of to hold courses for general firearm use. And TBH they'd get better value in running courses on how not to burn petrol....


I for one would like to think that this will bring the sport to a new level of sporting maturity.. Heres to a bright future Lads

Trojan911

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Don't mean to criticise your friend, but perhaps it was his skill that caused problems?

You could be right, but he knew his stuff & was well experienced. He won many pistol competitions & his two handguns were valued at around £8k-£10k each. They were tailor made to suit his hand. He also had a civilian version of the MP5 (semi auto) with a laser sighting at the time. What a little cracker that was.

cavan shooter

I' love to see it but honestly dont think it would happen,:( cans of propellent floating around with and access to primers etc. Its not what you can do with it legitimately but what can be done by others who dont want to up hold the law.

On a weekly basis we here of pipe bombs etc been found, viable devices so I cant see the state making it easier to access the various components required by a icriminal. Now I know that viable explosives can be easily made with readily accessible domestic and horticultural products, but litterally with propellents it does exactly what it says on the tin.

By the way dont store propellents in safes (not a good idea) if your house went on fire.

Sparks

Thing is, propellants do exactly what is says on the tin - ie, propell. They're not high explosives. Frankly, any engineering or chemistry student (and about half the brighter leaving cert chemistry students, as the ceiling of every chemistry lab in Ireland can attest) can put together something far more dangerous than propellant powder.

Grizzly 45

Very true about the chemistry lab ceilings in colleges Sparks:D
However,while technically a propellant they can explode when confined in a suitable container,like a pice of end threaded pipe.and knowing the idiots and criminals out there ,they have a tendancy to abuse everything ligit to their nefarious ends here in ol Ireland.Hence the total fear and paranoia in the Republic of anything that goes Bang or fizz.:rolleyes:

Reloading and misfires.
My cousin does alot of reloading for hunting.I asked him about the ecnomics of reloading 9mm ammo.Looking from a European peerspective,he said you would be nuts to do so,when you can buy somthing like 10K of rounds for somthing like 300 Euros,"at Frankonias rippoff prices".Pointed out to him the rippoff prices of a box here of 9mm.
In his opinion you would want to be punching around 10k worth of ammo per three months,and have nothing better to do with your life than reload ammo for it to justify the ecnomics in it on that scale.Or be flogging reloads to others.Which opens another can of worms on product liability.
IEven he said after 10 plus years reloading now that given a choice your factory ammo is always going to be better,in quality control,components etc.Reloading only justifies the expense,if you are working up loads for specific rifles and calibres[usually obscure ,or old units,or total precision units].But for mass firing in pistol or clay competitions not really.

cavan shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Thing is, propellants do exactly what is says on the tin - ie, propell. They're not high explosives. Frankly, any engineering or chemistry student (and about half the brighter leaving cert chemistry students, as the ceiling of every chemistry lab in Ireland can attest) can put together something far more dangerous than propellant powder.

In a way your right in that they produce gas volume to propel, Propellents can still be classed as explosives depending on what was used to manufacture them. And you shouldnt think because its a propellent its safer than HE

Check any Safety Data Sheet from Hodgdons etc and you will see that some of the popular powders which are used for reloading are manufactured from explosive products including NG.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Winchester%20Smokeless%20MSDS.pdf
and here
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/ADI-H4227-Varget-Retumbo.pdf


Others can be classed as pyrotechnic compositions but do not let that fool you into thinking its safer.

I have used high explosives, pyrotechnic charges, and deflagrating compounds such as black powder in my career and the most frightening to use was black powder

You dont need high explosive to cause damage (High explosive is about shock and shattering effect) an you need (an other HE to set it off), deflagrating agents such as gun powders and propellents have a high gas volume and unfortunately heat and a flame can set them off. Again look at the SDS sheets and see there sensitivity.

Hence its important as I stated in the post never store propellents in a confined safe. Its one thing bringing in reloading and I suppose it is by all accounts easy to set up to do it right, but I suggest these powders should be treated with a little bit more respect than they get...

civdef

I was at a conference last year that the DoJ explosives section were represented at, the vibes I heard towards reloading were not positive at all.

Red Renard

cavan shooter wrote: »

In a way your right in that they produce gas volume to propel, Propellents can still be classed as explosives depending on what was used to manufacture them. And you shouldnt think because its a propellent its safer than HE

Check any Safety Data Sheet from Hodgdons etc and you will see that some of the popular powders which are used for reloading are manufactured from explosive products including NG.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Winchester%20Smokeless%20MSDS.pdf
and here
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/ADI-H4227-Varget-Retumbo.pdf


Others can be classed as pyrotechnic compositions but do not let that fool you into thinking its safer.

I have used high explosives, pyrotechnic charges, and deflagrating compounds such as black powder in my career and the most frightening to use was black powder

You dont need high explosive to cause damage (High explosive is about shock and shattering effect) an you need (an other HE to set it off), deflagrating agents such as gun powders and propellents have a high gas volume and unfortunately heat and a flame can set them off. Again look at the SDS sheets and see there sensitivity.

Hence its important as I stated in the post never store propellents in a confined safe. Its one thing bringing in reloading and I suppose it is by all accounts easy to set up to do it right, but I suggest these powders should be treated with a little bit more respect than they get...

Cavan shooter. Do you know what power, propellent, active ingredient is in the average firework. Rocket / Banger (sold outside the ROI.)

ancienthunter

why worry about gun powder its basicly the same as surphur but doesnt corrode your gun. There may be some difference ? but....same thing as far as things you should'nt be doing are concerned its the same.

Why even make it easier for them yer basicly giving the an excuse to not licence reloading.

My answer is no it would not make a pick of difference if they allowed people who they knew to reload not a pick unless they also ban a load of other household stuff and commom day to day stuff and we end up like north korea without any internet.

Red Renard

ancienthunter wrote: »

why worry about gun powder its basicly the same as surphur but doesnt corrode your gun. There may be some difference ? but....same thing as far as things you should'nt be doing are concerned its the same.

Why even make it easier for them yer basicly giving the an excuse to not licence reloading.

My answer is no it would not make a pick of difference if they allowed people who they knew to reload not a pick unless they also ban a load of other household stuff and commom day to day stuff and we end up like north korea without any internet.

Gun power (BP) is found in fireworks, this I believe, is what's commonly used to make illegal devices, in different parts of the world, by criminals.

ancienthunter

yes gun powder or black powder is used in fireworks unlike modern nitrocellulose which is used in modern ammo.

Black powder is a blend of three natural materials.

Nitrocellulose is a syntetic type of material

The difference is that black powder is prone to going off due to friction or static etc... the chances still are slim.


nitrocellulose needs heat or a blast like from a mercury fumulminate primer in a case.

The advantages of nitrocellulose over black powder or another material is that it

- doesnt corrode your gun

- it has less smoke

- better burn

- safer to use

- more accuate loads are possible

This is why we use modern nitrocellulose for rounds.
the above reasons does not pose additional threat to the public based on the ease of availablity of other materials, therefore it should be licenced.

Sikamick

Re reloading: Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.(Joke)

Re Licensed Pistols: In Greece (Ireland) wise men speak and fools decide.

Re the Anti's: American, Activist Quotes : Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort facts or even lie. Sarah Brady

Sikamick

Sparks

I'm open to correction here ah, but I'm pretty sure that we don't use nitrocellulose, or black powder, or even cordite (excepting in some oddball loads) any more. Actual mixes seem to not only be trade secrets, but also seem to be varied on the day of manufacture by some makes (like eley tenex) in an effort to be more consistent; and I don't think mercury fulminate is used anymore either since it's pretty nasty stuff.

ancienthunter

smokeless powder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

ancienthunter

ah yes I see it is not just nitrocellulose.....there is more

Dvs

Red Renard wrote: »

Gun power (BP) is found in fireworks, this I believe, is what's commonly used to make illegal devices, in different parts of the world, by criminals.

Red Renard,
What factual information do you base this belief on ?


Criminals/Terrorists do not use either black powder or reloading propellent to make pipe bombs or IED's.

They use commercial explosives, semtex plastic explosive,
and homemade explosives made using many common products,
that in themselves are harmless,
and usually a combination of the above,
with shrapnel made from nails, nuts and bolts,
or any other available metal item.

Criminals and Terrorists using anything to create explosions,
to kill and injure people, is driven by the intent and willingness on their part to do so, not the available means.

This is the same intent and willingness that is exercised by them,
when they use illegal firearms to murder people.

Dvs.

Grizzly 45

Dvs wrote: »

Red Renard,

What factual information do you base this belief on ?

David Copeland,the London nailbomber,used fireworks BP for his pipebombs.
The Stockton school idiots Harris& Kleebold ,had made up BP pipebombs
A pipebomb found in Dublin last year loaded with shotgun powder.

NI loyalists pipebombings in around Drumcree time. etc,etc


If you can get it ,seeing that Semtex isnt made commerically anymore since the late 80s.Ireland proably has the last largest illegal store of it.
Still unaccounted for despite the peace process and decomissioning.

and homemade explosives made using many common products,
that in themselves are harmless,

If you can get it in the right % mixes or solutions that bring it up to explosive levels.Not as easy as it once was anymore.

Criminals and Terrorists using anything to create explosions,
to kill and injure people, is driven by the intent and willingness on their part to do so, not the available means.

So why would they be adverse then to using smokeless or BP,or even match heads ???

This is the same intent and willingness that is exercised by them,
when they use illegal firearms to murder people.

Well,I've yet to hear of a Terrorist organisation being so snobby to turn their noses up at anything that shoots.Baader Meinhoff started off with .22LR "Landmann" semi auto rifles.As at the time in the 1970s 22lr was still a free calibre in Germany. The IRA started off with hunting rifles or any old yoke[inc homemade] that would go bang.A terrorist will use anything to terrorise,wether it is legally available or not.

Sikamick

Some what of a coincidence when one looks at the debate going on here.

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/106-01.html

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/109-01.html

Sikamick

Vegeta

This will never happen

Lads they don't even trust us to move with loaded pistols ffs.

Simply put the DoJ or Minister don't get it.

We can all see that there is no difference between having 500 rounds of ammo and having the the components to make 500 rounds.

What's that you say, the powder for 500 rounds is in a convenient tub for them to steal. Well what the **** do you think is in the assembled 500 rounds? Pepper

If a terrorist organisation or gang are intent on making an IED from propellent then they will just pull the heads off the 500 rounds if they have to.

Not allowing reloading from a "making it harder for terrorists" point of view is bullsh1t.
A) IF a gang/terrorist wants powder they can get it in the North (where reloading is allowed)
or just steal ammo (which can be got here) and spend 20 minutes with a kinetic hammer

ancienthunter

If there were a bomber we all just better hope he's crap and uses the soft stuff. we'd be rightly fecked if he goes to the supermarket instead of planning a robbery and pulling it off and risking everything to get propellent !

ancienthunter

I believe the baddies are looking for the smallest most powerfull device and high explosive is the only thing that will fit this criteria

Having said that they will use anything handy but simply put that is why it will not be easily available to them and it would require more effort to aquire a propellent that to make a high explosive.

I think we are starting off with the wrong attitude. Yes we know what they think, but we all have to know what we're talking about without accidently scaremongering the un-enformed.
The answer among all the shooting fraternaty should be that reloading is a nessasary component of shooting and without having to re-illiterate what we as shooters allready know that gun powder goes bang.

It doesnt even come into it to debate whether propellent is classed as an explosive or what or to explain that bp or smokeless powder could be used as pipe bombs etc..

ancienthunter

If anyone has seen this man please contact your local garda station. He has been robbing everyones powder. He is currently being questioned by gardai. Please if anyone knows anything COME FORWARD !!