Save me! for the love of God save me :/

Normster

My family have recently become extremely Christian. They go to bible study, church the works. One member of my family sat me down and asked me to say "I believe in Jesus" just so I wouldn't go to hell. My responce was "what if I was a really good person and never heard of Jesus, would I go to hell then?", she said "no, because you would have never had heard of Jesus, but you do now because I just told you". She just sent me to hell. The conversation ended with her in tears genuinely concerned about my trip to hell and her saying "just say it for me! just humour me please??"
How do you deal with this kind of thing? My mother has started reading the bible every night and now feels the need to read bits of it to me randomly. Its like horoscopes, its so vague and big you can relate it to everything. They keep telling me they are praying for me, which is nice and all, but I can't help feel that they are standing on pedi-stools looking down at me. I don't like the way they talk about other religions in a condescending way. Don't get me wrong I'm not comitting to being an atheist, I think its all more hassel than its worth, I'm just happy existing and trying my best at what I consider to be a good person, but I'm not closing off anything as a possibility, I know nothing for definite.

But I'm gonna crack, its like the people you love most think you are this silly little child that they must save. Its patronising and condescending, how am I supposed to respect them if they don't respect me??? Its like having Mormons round for tea constantly.

Anyone else experience this grief?

lostexpectation

what caused this change?

Normster

They always had some faith, but my Aunty started going to the bible studies and she has convienced the rest to go. For my mum I think its lack of anything else in her life, and being ill. There is a definite lack of love for life. She doesn't have a partner or a job at the moment so she has more time for it. Its making her happy, I'm delighted, but at the same time I wish it could make them happy without making the non-believers (including myself) look like devil worshipers! Its a bit harsh BELIEVE IN JESUS OR SPEND ETERNITY BEING BURNT ALIVE! its abit mean.

philologos

Normster wrote: »

My family have recently become extremely Christian. They go to bible study, church the works.

Great for them.

Normster wrote: »

One member of my family sat me down and asked me to say "I believe in Jesus" just so I wouldn't go to hell. My responce was "what if I was a really good person and never heard of Jesus, would I go to hell then?", she said "no, because you would have never had heard of Jesus, but you do now because I just told you". She just sent me to hell. The conversation ended with her in tears genuinely concerned about my trip to hell and her saying "just say it for me! just humour me please??"

Touch excessive. Merely saying that you believe in Jesus without genuinely believing in Him isn't valid anyway.

Normster wrote: »

How do you deal with this kind of thing? My mother has started reading the bible every night and now feels the need to read bits of it to me randomly.

Ask her not to, if you do not genuinely share those beliefs, or tell her if you want to read the Bible you will read it for yourself.

Normster wrote: »

They keep telling me they are praying for me, which is nice and all, but I can't help feel that they are standing on pedi-stools looking down at me.

They pray for you because they love you, not because they are "looking down" on you. I pray for my friends and family on a daily basis, I generally don't tell people unless they have requested me to.

Normster wrote: »

I don't like the way they talk about other religions in a condescending way. Don't get me wrong I'm not comitting to being an atheist, I think its all more hassel than its worth, I'm just happy existing and trying my best at what I consider to be a good person, but I'm not closing off anything as a possibility, I know nothing for definite.

I prefer to let other religions defend themselves. I believe there is a certain level of truth in all religions as is the view held by C.S Lewis in Mere Christianity, but Christianity is the ultimate truth.

Normster wrote: »

But I'm gonna crack, its like the people you love most think you are this silly little child that they must save. Its patronising and condescending, how am I supposed to respect them if they don't respect me??? Its like having Mormons round for tea constantly.

This is a misunderstanding, they want you to be saved because they love you, not because they think that you are a "silly little child". I'm friends with many atheists, and I respect them, but I disagree with their views of God and I hope that they do find Him some day. That's more the understanding.

If you are having problems with it though, talk to them one on one and tell them how you feel and let them explain themselves too.

Normster wrote: »

Anyone else experience this grief?

I can understand where you are coming from. I just think you need to be clear with them on where you stand on the God question. They should leave you with more freedom for you to consider it yourself.

I hope that they can understand.

Rb

Do you have the option to move out?

Fanatical cult members are something I would not want to live with anyway.

MatthewVII

If you want to affirm whatever it is you believe, you should let the family members that you feel are pressuring you that you believe that you will find god or not your own way. I reckon the best thing to do is assure them that if jesus is real you will inevitably find your way to him or he will reveal himself to you. If they are as religious as you say they are, they should be confident in their deity's ability to improve lives/draw people to them, so this might assuage their convictions.

Maybe you should just let your mother know that you're still figuring it out for yourself and that you want to come around to a proper understanding of the metaphysical nature of things (or not) in your own way so that your faith (or not) will be mature, well-placed and firmly rooted in what you believe.

Marcus.Aurelius

You could always point them to Ecclesiastes 9:4-6) .*.*.

For as respects whoever is joined to all the living there exists confidence, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5*For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6*Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.

Use the bible to show them up as being in breach of a few scriptures so they become a bit less gung ho about it at least.

philologos

That wouldn't really show them as being in breach at all. Of course the dead body isn't going to be conscious. The dead are no longer the same after death, they gain a spiritual nature rather than a corporal one. Is consciousness not attributed to the brain?

This wouldn't pose any inherent difficulty: See 1 Corinthians 15 on Christian belief on the afterlife and Resurrection of the dead http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=99926003

Húrin

MatthewVII wrote: »

If you want to affirm whatever it is you believe, you should let the family members that you feel are pressuring you that you believe that you will find god or not your own way. I reckon the best thing to do is assure them that if jesus is real you will inevitably find your way to him or he will reveal himself to you. If they are as religious as you say they are, they should be confident in their deity's ability to improve lives/draw people to them, so this might assuage their convictions.

Maybe you should just let your mother know that you're still figuring it out for yourself and that you want to come around to a proper understanding of the metaphysical nature of things (or not) in your own way so that your faith (or not) will be mature, well-placed and firmly rooted in what you believe.

Good advice. I would also point out to them that Jesus asked his disciples to proclaim the good news, not to convert people. Few people find the door that leads to life, which means that a lot of people will not be converted. So it's pointless to act as if everyone can be.

Marcus.Aurelius

Jakkass wrote: »

That wouldn't really show them as being in breach at all. Of course the dead body isn't going to be conscious. The dead are no longer the same after death, they gain a spiritual nature rather than a corporal one. Is consciousness not attributed to the brain?

This wouldn't pose any inherent difficulty: See 1 Corinthians 15 on Christian belief on the afterlife and Resurrection of the dead http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=99926003

And what of Lazarus, whom Jesus was supposed to have described as sleeping.

Not frolicking in clouds or suffering endlessly in a hell allowed by a nice kind God.

Consciousness in the Hebrew text in the Eccl reference refers to self awareness, not outright consciousness. The dead are dead, not in heaven or hell.

Just because 1 Cor 15 speaks of a resurrection, doesn't mean that it is ongoing or has happened yet. Don't forget Rev 21: 3&4, which clearly points to a future resurrection.

philologos

House wrote: »

And what of Lazarus, whom Jesus was supposed to have described as sleeping.

Not frolicking in clouds or suffering endlessly in a hell allowed by a nice kind God.

Consciousness in the Hebrew text in the Eccl reference refers to self awareness, not outright consciousness. The dead are dead, not in heaven or hell.

Just because 1 Cor 15 speaks of a resurrection, doesn't mean that it is ongoing or has happened yet. Don't forget Rev 21: 3&4, which clearly points to a future resurrection.

Lazarus and Jairus' (leader the synagogue's) daughter who Jesus described as sleeping, and the rest of the people laughed at him, but were stunned after the event happened.

Anyhow, I think that's irrelevant, as there are so many different questions concerning judgement within the Christian community. Such as:
Does judgement happen immediately or are we all left in a passive mode until Jesus raises us again at the Final Judgement?

This would indicate that your post could suggest that Lazarus and Jairus' daughter were left in a passive mode until their judgement, also being coherent with the Ecclesiastes reference.

One would also take into account that the afterlife didn't appear in Hebrew thought until further revelation also. It is discussed in Old Testament book such as Daniel in particular.

I would however like you to find the Hebrew word that is used for conscious if you can in Strongs or something, because that is quite a claim to make without backing it up with the actual text.

DinoBot

Normster wrote: »

They always had some faith, but my Aunty started going to the bible studies and she has convienced the rest to go. For my mum I think its lack of anything else in her life, and being ill. There is a definite lack of love for life. She doesn't have a partner or a job at the moment so she has more time for it. Its making her happy, I'm delighted, but at the same time I wish it could make them happy without making the non-believers (including myself) look like devil worshipers! Its a bit harsh BELIEVE IN JESUS OR SPEND ETERNITY BEING BURNT ALIVE! its abit mean.

Im no expert but I do have experience of people joining a new faith. In my opinion a new faith causes people to project their fears onto others. In this case you. Nobody can have 100% faith especially when they are just learning a new faith. You represent their own fear. You are not accepting the faith and are therefore offering a focus point for their fears. Im not sure how old you are, so moving out my not be an option. So unless you have the interest in the religion and good knowledge of the bible I think you would find it very difficult to ague against them in that way. You must remember if they are attending bible study class the people giving the class are well experienced with people finding "faults" in the bible, and of course will have answers (most of which are good).

So, from my experience you can approach it two ways: (1) if you want some breathing space you should say so to your Mother. If she is sick, why argue. Tell her you don't have a real objection to her new found faith, but right now you are not as into it as she is. But in the future you would be interested in joining with her. (2) Look into what you actually do believe in, and why. This will help you to organise your thoughts better and be dragged into the "fear" aspect of religion. If you dont know what you actually believe in its very difficult to tell your family that their faith is not for you.

Any family conflict can be difficult. Good luck

Dades

House & Jakkass.

Take any bible contradiction discussions to the Christianity forum.
The OP has a specific question, so any more off topic stuff will be deleted.

TIA.

Flamed Diving

It sounds like the OP might be a teenager, I might be wrong but I sensed a kind of helplessness that only a trapped teenager can feel.

I dunno, dude. You could actually use reading the bible to your advantage. Because I'm sure if a person even badly reads the bible they would find that acceptance of Jesus isn't a mere utterance of words, but takes place within your heart. Therefore, your mother can't do a thing about it, even if she holds a gun to your head and forces you. So if you are that young, and have no way out, read the book to please her, and show her why she is wrong at the same time. Two birds, one stone.

Zillah

Oh just say it. She clearly doesn´t care or grasp the difference between it being false or not, just say those words to make her think her baby isn´t going to burn forever.

Or move out. As Rb said, I wouldn´t live with a group of crazy cultists.

studiorat

The Bible studies group looks not unlike just something for your mother to do, a bit of time out of the house of whatever. It sounds to me like she's just got nothing better to do.

You could try find something else that you can do together that doesn't involve the bible and suggest that to her. I don't want to comment on your personal circumstances, but, if she's ill you should be spending some time hanging out anyway, not just when you are both in the house either. Even if you went shopping or to the cinema it will give her an afternoon or evening not worrying about being sick, alone, unemployed etc. and not transferring that worry into reading the bible all the time like so many do.

I'd agree with Zillah though, if it makes her happy just say it. You'll thank yourself for it one day.

Best of luck with it anyway.

the_syco

Normster wrote: »

For my mum I think its lack of anything else in her life, and being ill. There is a definite lack of love for life. She doesn't have a partner or a job at the moment so she has more time for it.

Sounds like she has found a group of nice people. Once they don't try to fleece her for every penny (I trust no cult, no matter how long they have been on this earth), leave her be. You may find another social circle, but apart from these wacky religous nuts, many societies don't have the members best interests at heart, but rather to have a good time. From my interaction with a born-again group (presbyterian group, I think, in Lucan), many are happy care free people. If your mother likes it, let her go. Goto one of the study groups, and suss them out. If they are nice, talkative, leave her be. If they mention money, mention going to hell too much, get her out. There are many church groups around, and most are ran by priests, or whatever the hell their religon holds as a priest-type person.

In short, I don't believe in most of the horse crap. True, I'd like to die kicking the crap out of the enemy* and end up in Valhalla, but jumping around in clouds may not be all bad. But if someone believes, I say let them. They've a good chance of finding peace (of mind) in this organisation, once they're not being scammed, so let them. I don't see the point in projecting my religous views on those who want to believe. Saying that, if try to press their religon on me, I'll fight them on here

*and no, I don't know who the enemy are yet

philologos

studiorat wrote: »

The Bible studies group looks not unlike just something for your mother to do, a bit of time out of the house of whatever. It sounds to me like she's just got nothing better to do.

People who are in difficult times as well as those who are just seeking something in life want to find how God can relate to them and if there is meaning in their lives. I really don't think this for most people if not all who go to Bible studies is true.

studiorat wrote: »

You could try find something else that you can do together that doesn't involve the bible and suggest that to her. I don't want to comment on your personal circumstances, but, if she's ill you should be spending some time hanging out anyway, not just when you are both in the house either. Even if you went shopping or to the cinema it will give her an afternoon or evening not worrying about being sick, alone, unemployed etc. and not transferring that worry into reading the bible all the time like so many do.

I think this is good advice however, balance is key, and I think that it would be good for the OP to do something with there family. Even from a Christian perspective I think that enjoying life is also what God has put us here for as well as thinking about what He wants for us.

All in all, brilliant post.

Normster

I'm not a teenager trapped in a desperate situation. I left home long ago and live in a different country from my family. The time I get to spend with my family is few and far between and I don't want to waste it bickering about religion or politics. I think I'm gonna go with the advice of keeping them happy. I'm open minded enough to say I know no truth for definite, and in this repect I can say that yes religion was a great idea and possibly Jesus did exist. The part where I think humans have made a mess of it ever since by analysing and arguing over it to the extent of bloodshed, I'll keep that bit under my tounge. I'll try my best not to mention the decades of child abuse preformed by priests of the Church my aunty gives ridiculous amounts of money to on a weekly basis.

Maybe I'm coming off like a teenager because I feel like I'm the only one seeing things as they are and no one listens to me

Anything for peace sake. I'm gonna tell them that I do agree that there is a possibility that they may be right, but I don't agree with organised religion or speaking about your beliefs. Hopefully that will do the job.

Thanks for the replies

AtomicHorror

Buy Dawkins for everyone?

To be honest, it sounds rather like they're failing to grasp a lot of what they're swallowing uncritically. Don't think any of the denominations take the "I believe in/on Jesus Christ" thing as a literal get out of jail free card. Though the Bible seems to suggest it is.

Normster

Thanks for recommending Dawkins, I'd totally forgotten evolution as a point of reality. I do think it is amazing how religion was created, it was an extrememly intelligent idea to bring out the best in humanity, but has possibly done the opposite. I'm going to get that book.

Just as a point to add, I noticed on the Darwin website that the book is banned in Turkey. I came across a physiology book that was banned in the USA due to evolution being mentioned in it. Now THAT is crazy.

I really have to learn how to hold my opinion back. I just don't understand how they think this world is merely an intermediate.

The Mad Hatter

Um, you mean the Dawkins website?

AtomicHorror

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Um, you mean the Dawkins website?

There should be a Darwin website. He should have a blog. It's his birthday. And it's On the Origin of Species' birthday too!

The Mad Hatter

AtomicHorror wrote: »

There should be a Darwin website. He should have a blog. It's his birthday. And it's On the Origin of Species' birthday too!

Gawd, imagine if the Voyage of the Beagle was blogged.

Edit: Also, it's Mendelssohn's birthday too!

AtomicHorror

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Gawd, imagine if the Voyage of the Beagle was blogged.

Would be a great idea, if the journals are in the public domain in some sort of printed or digital format.

Normster

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Um, you mean the Dawkins website?

Yeah, sorry, I was reading stuff on the Dawkins site about Darwin, I mean't to say Dawkins

philologos

Normster wrote: »

Thanks for recommending Dawkins, I'd totally forgotten evolution as a point of reality. I do think it is amazing how religion was created, it was an extrememly intelligent idea to bring out the best in humanity, but has possibly done the opposite. I'm going to get that book.

One thing I will ask of you is this, if you are to read material, keep an open mind, and ask Christians about some of the theological objections that Dawkin's raises. Some of them aren't quite as accurate as he makes them out to be in the book.

Normster wrote: »

Just as a point to add, I noticed on the Darwin website that the book is banned in Turkey. I came across a physiology book that was banned in the USA due to evolution being mentioned in it. Now THAT is crazy.

Indeed, I think free speech should be paramount in terms of literature.

Normster wrote: »

I really have to learn how to hold my opinion back. I just don't understand how they think this world is merely an intermediate.

Don't hold your opinion back. However, be willing to be open to your family as well. You never know they mightn't always be automatically wrong.

jim o doom

Jakkass wrote: »

Don't hold your opinion back. However, be willing to be open to your family as well. You never know they mightn't always be automatically wrong.

that' a fair point & I agree that you should be willing to argue for what you believe in; but jakkas; it's pointless to argue with religion, because the believer simply believes - that's what makes it faith..

and to say that they mightnt always be wrong, to a person who certainly doesn't believe in organised religion & doesn't believe any of the bible; a believers arguments are going to inevitably return to the bible itself & belief in god - to a person who thinks both things are fallacies, that makes any argument inherently wrong.

I'm not saying religious people are inherently wrong, but any argument that is based on something that the person you are talking to doesn't believe in can't hold any water..

e.g. but the bible says this, or this occurrance at this point from the bible concurs with this real life happening or god could have created evolution or anything like that - to the person you are speaking reads as "but this big book you have no belief says" or "this entity you don't believe in at all could have.." etc.

philologos

jim o doom wrote: »

that' a fair point & I agree that you should be willing to argue for what you believe in; but jakkas; it's pointless to argue with religion, because the believer simply believes - that's what makes it faith..

Speaking as a believer, I don't think that's a reasonable claim. Many people have researched to see if Biblical claims have basis, that's why we have theology amongst other things. However you are probably correct in saying that many people who believe in God don't look to this too often.

jim o doom wrote: »

and to say that they mightnt always be wrong, to a person who certainly doesn't believe in organised religion & doesn't believe any of the bible; a believers arguments are going to inevitably return to the bible itself & belief in god - to a person who thinks both things are fallacies, that makes any argument inherently wrong.

Is the Bible always wrong? In relation to social and personal ethics amongst other things I think the atheist might even disagree with this point. The Bible certainly isn't "inherently wrong". Just because you don't believe in something doesn't discount it as being wrong.

jim o doom wrote: »

I'm not saying religious people are inherently wrong, but any argument that is based on something that the person you are talking to doesn't believe in can't hold any water..

However, you are arguing that the Biblical text is inherently wrong. Yes I agree with you if you are discussing something that people don't believe in it mightn't for them, however this certainly doesn't dictate truth value. I'm suggesting that Normster not be swayed by the way that people might want him to think and to try and make his own objective judgement on the Bible and on Christianity for himself.

jim o doom wrote: »

e.g. but the bible says this, or this occurrance at this point from the bible concurs with this real life happening or god could have created evolution or anything like that - to the person you are speaking reads as "but this big book you have no belief says" or "this entity you don't believe in at all could have.." etc.

Yes, although one mightn't see something as being true doesn't mean that it is any less true. I understand where you are coming from though.

Goduznt Xzst

Normster wrote: »

I really have to learn how to hold my opinion back. I just don't understand how they think this world is merely an intermediate.

Don't. Let them know how you feel and be confident about it. If you where gay would you feel obliged to act heterosexual around them?

You needn't be argumentative, rather you merely just have to passively refuse to partake in their praying, church going... etc. If they push the issue, use some simple tautology, I find that works best to diffuse most arguments, something like "I am what I am" or "live and let live"

You'll be better for it and you won't be giving your family the false hope that you'll eventually "come around" to believing their brand of mental laxative.

My family knows I'm an Atheist and they now accept me for it. Sure there was a period where they imagined that a life without their religion would lead to drug abuse, alcoholism and std's out the ying yang. But after they realizedI was able to be educated, considerate and now happily married they came around to seeing that people can be normal without their God and teachings.

My relationship with my parents is now better than it ever was in the religion, I guess because I'm now acutely aware of their mortality and they, I guess, are aware with their beliefs, that if they do get into an afterlife, I won't be following them.

WooPeeA

About 2-3 years ago my father became strong Christian, church every Sunday, reading religious books, watching religious movies etc. He was getting mad sometimes that he's the only Christian in the house and nobody's following him.

After couple of months he left religious books for other kind of books, like Paulo Cohelo for example, and week after week became less and less religious until he finally back to normal..