"Islam: What the West needs to know"

Zascar

Wikipedia:

Islam: What the West Needs to Know is a documentary film produced by Quixotic Media. According to the producers, the film is an examination of Islam and its violence towards the non-muslims. It features discussions using passages from religious texts and includes commentaries by Robert Spencer, Serge Trifkovic, Bat Ye'or, Abdullah Al-Araby, and Walid Shoebat.

It argues that Islam is a violent religion bent on world domination. The documentary uses passages from the canonical texts of Islam as its source material

Google Video Link

I saw this film the other day and was pretty shocked by it.

I'm just wondering what people of the Islamic faith themselves think of this - do you disagree with message of the movie or what are you feelings?

c-note

i'm not religious but i think there are about 2 billion muslims in the world (thats 1 in 3 people in the world)

if their religion demanded they be violent and hate/kill non muslims i'm pretty sure we'd be f***ed already.

yes there are the minority but i think we should invent a new name for them to avoid confusing them with the vast vast majority of peacful people who are also muslims.

i havnt seen the documentary so i cant comment on whats in it. but remember christianity has a pretty brutal and bloody history.

CDfm

Its kinda obvious that Muslims have an intense dislike of the west. Its traditions have territorial conquests of others.

So whats wrong with acknowledging it.

,8,1

Its kinda obvious that Muslims have an intense dislike of the west. Its traditions have territorial conquests of others.

So whats wrong with acknowledging it.

Can that not apply to the West in the past and the present too, however?

"You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." - Matthew 7:5

CDfm

,8,1 wrote: »

Can that not apply to the West in the past and the present too, however?

"You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." - Matthew 7:5

The west isnt generic.

In Ireland we didnt exactly go out and conquer anyone?

The reality is they hate non-muslims.

The Mad Hatter

CDfm wrote: »

In Ireland we didnt exactly go out and conquer anyone?

Only because we spent centuries getting rid of people who'd conquered us.

panda100

It was quite an intresting documentary,if not a little sensationalist and focusing soley on negative aspects of a religion. If you went through the Old Testament or New Testament you could also cherry pic some quite horrific parables and teachings.

Also, it made me sick at the beginning watching the main perpetrators of Islamaphobia, Bush and Blair, talking of how much they 'respected' islam. I had a laugh at Bush when he said, "It (islam) is practisced by millions of people in countries that America counts as friends". So these 'friends' would be Saudia Arabia but not Palestine?

Personally I think people only turn to extreme acts of violence when they have nothing else to lose. Western countries have been exploiting the middle East,India and African countries for years so finally the people in these countries are rising up and rebelling. I think the acts of violence have little to do with islam and more to do with pure frustration from people who see the vast inequalities between those living in the West compared to the rest of the world.

shqipshume

We have vast majority of Muslims in some countries such as Asian and kosova and Turkish etc..... Who in majority do not wish any ill harm to non Muslims.As they are themselves more modern country and do not follow the Koran and its writings to extent of murder and terror.
The people they do use from Arab or majority Muslim lands are desperate and poor and are promised a good life for their families after they have given up their lives for Allah and ofc the to go to paradise.They have no value on life of anyone in the world.
They are brain washed.
Some one once said to me how are the doctors brain washed they are intelligent.It doesn't make a difference they are brought up with hate in their hearts most.Others caught at weak points in their lives and others just plain and simple are headcases who believe they are the right and everyone else is wrong.
Luckily they are stuck where they live and majority of them are only fighting with their neighbours.
Unfortunatly there is alot more of them then we know.

grizzly

Western media is driven by Christian, Jewish and secular forces. They always tend to misrepresent Muslims. The response from Muslims which tends to be hostility, which compounds the negative image of Muslims. The response that is given the limelight is not that of the majority, with more moderate views, but those with the more extreme views. It generates more drama for the press and sells more copy.

CDfm

panda100 wrote: »

Western countries have been exploiting the middle East,India and African countries for years so finally the people in these countries are rising up and rebelling. I think the acts of violence have little to do with islam and more to do with pure frustration from people who see the vast inequalities between those living in the West compared to the rest of the world.

You should say some western countries - and lots of the inequalities in living standards are down to their own economies.

Using the West as a generic term is what they do.You cant include Ireland or Poland or Switzerland or even the USA as colonial powers.

You cant blame a person for doing business with whoever is in government. Is the West responsible for Zimbabwe.So its their own intermnal governments they should blame.

BuffyBot

The west isnt generic.

Yet billions of Muslims, dispersed across the globe, somehow are generic? That seems to be what you are implying.

CDfm

BuffyBot wrote: »

Yet billions of Muslims, dispersed across the globe, somehow are generic? That seems to be what you are implying.

i am not really. But of course the communities here done very little to explain their ethos.

wes

Its a pro War on Terror propaganda film. It has about as much value as the rantings of Osama, saying the "West" is evil and that kind of nonsense.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Its kinda obvious that Muslims have an intense dislike of the west. Its traditions have territorial conquests of others.

As many countries with muslim populations have been the subject of colonisation at the hands of Western 'Empires', its hardly suprising that some harbour resentment towards their former oppressors. And considering that the West still occassionally interferes to take advantage of their resources (Iran, Iraq) its not suprising it remains somewhat of an open wound.

Zascar wrote:

Islam: What the West Needs to Know is a documentary film produced by Quixotic Media

.....which, had it been about Jews, would have been blown out of the water. It concentrates on the worst possible reading of Islam and its scriptures. A disgusting piece of trash, created by cranks, bigots and frauds.

Spencer has made a 30 year career out of fear-mongering about Islam.

Bat Y'eor is - much like Spencer - a cherry picker of history. Though her bigotry is perhaps the result of some personal experiences, this shouldn't excuse its extent -

Johann Hari, a British journalist, argues that "There are intellectuals on the British right who are propagating a conspiracy theory about Muslims that teeters very close to being a 21st century Protocols of the Elders of Mecca" and that Bat Ye'or is a "scholar" who argues that Europe is on the brink of being transformed into a conquered continent called "Eurabia".[44]
Israeli peace activist Adam Keller, in a letter of protest sent on June 2, 2008 to the Israeli publisher of Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, wrote:

In 1886 the French antisemite Edouard Drumont published 'La France Juive' (Jewish France), creating the false nightmarish image of a France dominated by Jews, and sowing the poisonous seeds which came to fruit when Vichy French officials collaborated in the mass muder of French Jewry. [...] 'Bat Ye'or' follows in notorious footsteps indeed by creating the false nightmarish image of a Europe dominated by Arabs and Muslims.[45]

According to David Aaronovitch:

[Eurabia] is a concept created by a writer called Bat Ye’or who, according to the publicity for her most recent book, "chronicles Arab determination to subdue Europe as a cultural appendage to the Muslim world — and Europe's willingness to be so subjugated". This, as students of conspiracy theories will recognise, is the addition of the Sad Dupes thesis to the Enemy Within idea.

Were it not for the need for the American right to create 'intellectual' justification for its aggression, this stuff would be safely unknown and on the fringes, with the Jew-bashing and 'Black' hating crap.
Shoebat....Dear o dear....Pops up on WorldNetDaily the odd time, which is a sure sign theres something wrong....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat

Serge Trifkovic. A true moral champion. Former spokesman for Radovan Karadzic, who is now up on War Crimes charges. Denier of most of Serb crimes in the Yugoslav conflict, including Srebrenicia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Trifkovic#cite_note-0
Obviously the kind of man whose opinion on Muslims you'd trust.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

As many countries with muslim populations have been the subject of colonisation at the hands of Western 'Empires', its hardly suprising that some harbour resentment towards their former oppressors. And considering that the West still occassionally interferes to take advantage of their resources (Iran, Iraq) its not suprising it remains somewhat of an open wound.



.....which, had it been about Jews, would have been blown out of the water. It concentrates on the worst possible reading of Islam and its scriptures. A disgusting piece of trash, created by cranks, bigots and frauds.

but this is double standards - lots of muslim extremists use the same language - and why should we suffer physically or economically for it.

we too have rights as do lots of other countries who didnt have colonies or were themselves colonies

they should cut us some slack

the attack on holiday making aussies proved what other then the attacks are indiscriminate

wes

CDfm wrote: »

the attack on holiday making aussies proved what other then the attacks are indiscriminate

No, it wasn't. They were attacking what they would see as a symbol "Western decadence". They were attacking a symbol more than anything else. Also, the group that carried it was a local Indonesian group, that has there own aim's and problems with there government.

There are many different groups that are doing what they are doing for many different reasons, some purely religous, some due to nationalism mixed with religion and many other reasons. Among the extremists groups on there own, there are huge differences between them, some are violent, some try to engage with a polticial process and everything in between. These groups are not one group, they are many groups and need to be looked at indiviudally to get any meaningful understanding of them.

Now, to say that the actions of a Indonesian groups proves anything (in a general sense) is riduculous. They are one group that are representative of only themselves, they aren't even representative of extremists in general, as they come in many flavours.

**EDIT**
Having said that, these groups do sometimes have similarities. These can't be denied, but the similarties in some cases, does not make them one group.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

but this is double standards - lots of muslim extremists use the same language - and why should we suffer physically or economically for it.

I have no idea what you mean. Please explain.

CDfm wrote: »

we too have rights as do lots of other countries who didnt have colonies or were themselves colonies.

Indeed we do. However I don't see what that has to do with the vilification of Muslims, usually in order to justify the sequestering of their nations resources.

CDfm wrote: »

they should cut us some slack

the attack on holiday making aussies proved what other then the attacks are indiscriminate

Small groups in Indonesia and elsewhere are hardly indicative of Islam as a whole.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

I have no idea what you mean. Please explain.



Indeed we do. However I don't see what that has to do with the vilification of Muslims, usually in order to justify the sequestering of their nations resources.



Small groups in Indonesia and elsewhere are hardly indicative of Islam as a whole.

what i mean is that the muslim organisations and right wing western politicians use similar language.

i dont see why it should not influence us -especially when you have the level of integration in the Uk. Indonesia and then Ireland -why not by your logic.

the_syco

panda100 wrote: »

I think the acts of violence have little to do with islam

Didn't see it, but if it's the film I'm thinking of, this is the point of the film: to rename the people using islam to wage war on people to something else.

Most of the west see's Islam as the terrorist religon, instead of one of peace, and not one twisted by fanitics to brainwash people into following their lead.

The prophet dude was a warrior, but he was kind to those he captured. Not like the fanitics* who'll chop your head off on TV.

*I think I'm using the wrong phrase here

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

what i mean is that the muslim organisations and right wing western politicians use similar language..

So a minority muslim group(s) happens to hold some views that coincide with that of the (presumably far) Right in Europe....So what, exactly? Bin Laden was a big Arsenal fan. Apart from comedy value, what relevance does that have? And seeing as such groups are a minority, how therefore can this rather nasty film have any real grounds for castigating Islam as a whole?

CDfm wrote: »

i dont see why it should not influence us -especially when you have the level of integration in the Uk. Indonesia and then Ireland -why not by your logic.

Indonesia is a predominantly muslim country, so I fail to see how "integration" figures into anything there. Your point is far from clear.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

So a minority muslim group(s) happens to hold some views that coincide with that of the (presumably far) Right in Europe....So what, exactly? Bin Laden was a big Arsenal fan. Apart from comedy value, what relevance does that have? And seeing as such groups are a minority, how therefore can this rather nasty film have any real grounds for castigating Islam as a whole?



Indonesia is a predominantly muslim country, so I fail to see how "integration" figures into anything there. Your point is far from clear.

like it or not this and the bombing in Madrid carried messages to the world.

and they have affected law abiding muslims.

In the Case of Indonesia it ruined their tourist industry and in the case of Madrid and Edinburgh it made life more difficult for their muslim populations.

Living in London in the late 80s and early 90s was no fun if you were Irish -so the bombers are prepared to inflict collateral damage on their fellow muslims.Thats not my responsibility its a decision the bombers made and what you may define as racist others might define as prudent.

studiorat

Nodin wrote: »

Indonesia is a predominantly muslim country, so I fail to see how "integration" figures into anything there.

It should be noted that Islam in Indonesia is quite different from Islam as we see it in the Middle East.

Dunno if the West needs to know that or not but there you are...

philologos

I think this documentary has a clear agenda, and if this were a documentary on Christianity rather than Islam I think I would be rather opposed to a documentary featuring solely those who oppose it. Figures such as Walid Shoebat are clear figures who have converted on Islam. It would be fair if the other side had more of a say in the actual discourse and discussion of the film. As I say I think it is up to Islam to defend itself, and up to Christianity to defend itself as well as all other traditions, but I'm not sure of unfair attacks.

Perhaps I am wrong, I have only watched a small part of this on Youtube. If so I'm willing to accept corrections.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

like it or not this and the bombing in Madrid carried messages to the world.

and they have affected law abiding muslims.

In the Case of Indonesia it ruined their tourist industry and in the case of Madrid and Edinburgh it made life more difficult for their muslim populations.

Living in London in the late 80s and early 90s was no fun if you were Irish -so the bombers are prepared to inflict collateral damage on their fellow muslims.Thats not my responsibility its a decision the bombers made and what you may define as racist others might define as prudent.

Again, I'm rather confused as to what point you are making - A minority act in a certain way so its ok to blame not only the rest of the population there but the religon they claim to follow, and to make generalised films that feature people who have (a) been using Islam as an excuse for US policy (b) making money and (c)to justify and by turns deny ethnic cleansing in the Balkans - is that it?

Nodin

studiorat wrote: »

It should be noted that Islam in Indonesia is quite different from Islam as we see it in the Middle East.

Dunno if the West needs to know that or not but there you are...

I'm sure it is. Islam is not monolithic by any standard. Not that you'd know it from that movie. They might as well have just put out a compilation of Herbert Loms clips...
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=3rCG5-7E7Ao

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

Again, I'm rather confused as to what point you are making - A minority act in a certain way so its ok to blame not only the rest of the population there but the religon they claim to follow, and to make generalised films that feature people who have (a) been using Islam as an excuse for US policy (b) making money and (c)to justify and by turns deny ethnic cleansing in the Balkans - is that it?

I am really glad I am not an arab muslim living in the West right now. Intellectually we can discount stuff like terrorist acts in Western Europe but it does have the effect of polarising opinions and that is what it does.It is probably an objective of the terrorists and part of the propaganda which is used by both sides.

I am not blaming anyone other then the terrorists.

What I am saying is that it helps promote a stereotype of muslims as fundamentalists as those are the ones whose actions we see in the media. You know bombings terrorism chop chop square and all that.

I am also saying that it makes people wary of making social cultural and business links with muslims or going on holiday in muslim countries because people are cautious. So it has economic and other costs to muslims.

I am not excusing US policy or the actions of the Balkan states which the UN intervened to stop but I understand them and racism which is different from condoning them.

studiorat

Nodin wrote: »

They might as well have just put out a compilation of Herbert Loms clips...
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=3rCG5-7E7Ao

LoL

ChocolateSauce

I take the line I take with all religion: Blame the idea, not the people.

fitz0

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I take the line I take with all religion: Blame the idea, not the people.

Too true!

I wonder if the riots in Denmark and other parts over the cartoons are part of this message that most of Islam is peaceful, or the threats made to Salman Rushdie, the attacks on people relating to Rushdie's book, or the current suppression of free speech and criticism of Islam in the EU and UN.

Makes you wonder why all these peaceful muslims are so quiet when the violent ones can be so loud. Surely if the peaceful ones spoke out they could only raise the opinion of Islam in the "West."

Húrin

Ridiculous. It's as if you took "Jesus Camp" and claimed that it represented Christianity.

CDfm wrote: »

Using the West as a generic term is what they do.You cant include Ireland or Poland or Switzerland or even the USA as colonial powers.

How is the USA not a colonial power? They conquered half of North America. For most of the last century they have controlled the world economy with all its dreadful suffering in the service of enriching the west.

fitz0

Húrin wrote: »

How is the USA not a colonial power? They conquered half of North America. For most of the last century they have controlled the world economy with all its dreadful suffering in the service of enriching the west.

The economy isnt a colony and North America is the USA's homeland therefore not a colony either. This kind of rules out colonial power. Thats not to say they are not an overbearing superpower but colonial power they are not.