Beware : Interesting definition of "saleable condition" @ Debenhams

Liam Byrne

Tried to exchange a Christmas gift today in Debenhams for a different size, and was told that unless I had the original packaging, no way!

The excuse ? That the receipt said "in a saleable condition".

Forgive me, but I would have thought that that meant that it hadn't been worn, or stuff spilt on it, or whatever, in which case it would be perfectly reasonable.

Got loads of other crap about how they'll measure you so that these things don't happen, and that people would be expected to know their shirt size, and had to actually ask how that could possibly be relevant when it was a gift and I hadn't actually been in the shop! :mad:

Their loss, because it was my first time in there and I would have definitely browsed around and more than likely bought a few more things, but told them they had to be joking and it was the first and last time they'd see me in there!

So, according to Debenhams, the plastic bag that a shirt comes in is now an essential part of the return.

"Letter of the law", maybe......good customer service and PR ? Absolutely not!

Be warned!

Random

I'd agree with Debenhams here.

Why didn't you fold the shirt into the original packaging?

rameire

just an example but,

would you try a condom on and then bring it back because its too big.
and then expect them to take it back even though its not in it wrapper.

wmpdd3

No way, return it the way you got it end of story, I wouldn't buy your opened 1.

A significant saving can be made supplying goods in packaging rather than hanging so if you can't understand shirt sizing buy the more expensive 1.

Chonker

What is your definition of Saleable condition?

Mine is "the same condition as the rest of the goods they sell in the store" yours clearly was not.
A tip for next Xmas... find out your size before you open the packaging then match it up with the little label. Trust me it works almost all the time

Liam Byrne

Whatever about the fairly reasonable angle that Random took, the other two posts are pretty brain-dead!

Yes, not bringing in the plastic wrapper was my oversight (I didn't leave it somewhere handy when I opened it, and it went AWOL) but my point is that "goods in a saleable condition" does NOT stretch to a fecking plastic cover.

But the other posts......jeez! Firstly @ rameire, condoms and underwear are a given - ANYONE with a brain would know that. Even if something like that ISN'T in a wrapper, you can't return or exchange it. So the comparison is COMPLETELY invalid, and that post is completely pointless and off-topic.

Secondly, re wmp's post,

I wouldn't buy your opened 1

......you'd probably buy a shirt from a shop that could have been tried on - unknown to you - about 20 times, so I can't see what your issue is.

And as was clear from the original post, it was a gift, so

A significant saving can be made supplying goods in packaging rather than hanging so if you can't understand shirt sizing buy the more expensive 1

is also irrelevant, and the "if you can't understand shirt sizing" is patronising; what I understand or not is irrelevant when I'm not even in the shop!

And in fact, the problem was that it WAS one in packaging.....if it hadn't been then they'd have had no excuse.

Anyways, what's done is done; like I said, they've said no and therefore they're not getting my custom ever again, and that's their loss. I was only posting here to warn others that this pettyness is the way they operate.

Liam Byrne

Chonker wrote: »

What is your definition of Saleable condition?

Mine is "the same condition as the rest of the goods they sell in the store" yours clearly was not.

Already answered above, but I'll repeat - the GOODS were in EXACTLY the same condition.

How about this example : you get an appliance delivered by one of the companies that takes away the packaging on delivery, and then need to return it ? Is the packaging part of the appliance ? Would they say "nope, no way" ?

Random

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Already answered above, but I'll repeat - the GOODS were in EXACTLY the same condition.

How about this example : you get an appliance delivered by one of the companies that takes away the packaging on delivery, and then need to return it ? Is the packaging part of the appliance ? Would they say "nope, no way" ?

It's up to the company that sold you the appiance to decide if they want to take back the appliance without packaging if you simply changed your mind.

Chonker

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How about this example : you get an appliance delivered by one of the companies that takes away the packaging on delivery, and then need to return it ? Is the packaging part of the appliance ? Would they say "nope, no way" ?

I know your angry Liam but the simple answer is...You can not! I am in the electrical business and that is a clear fact.

I have also been in the rag trade, lets say it was a €200 designer shirt and you un packaged it, why would you expect the store to sell it on at a loss just because you didnt understand the size?? If infact it was wrongly sized you may have a point although I doubt you do.

taram

K, not sure what people are saying above in the thread, but I'd put money on it that this is the merchandising problem that Debenhams refused you under:

the display shows that particular shirt in the package, so without the packing they have to either find a random stand to put the shirt on (which any class of shop above pennys/dunnes wouldn't have due to management wanting leaders, classics and such on display, not a misc rack), or keep it until sale time, neither of which is deseirable. Therefore, it's techincally saleable, but saleable condition does often extend to the packaging, whether it's a shoe box, shirt pack or the tags on it. Unfortunatly it should have been told to your gift giver on the day that there's no returns without packing.

Without sounding like a defendant of Debenhams, it is a common practise in retail, though I admit it's a sh!tty one.

Liam Byrne

Random wrote: »

It's up to the company that sold you the appiance to decide if they want to take back the appliance without packaging if you simply changed your mind.

Which is along the lines of what I said above about the "letter of the law".......

While there's a difference in the analogy because of "changed your mind" (because I didn't, but it's unlikely that someone would just buy you something like an appliance as a gift without checking all the details with you first) I was saying it because it's a far more relevant analogy than the stupid condom one above, and it highlighted the "packaging does not equal goods" aspect.

And if they did refuse I'd be the same and not deal with them again.

Please remember, I didn't say Debenham's were completely "in the wrong"; I actually conceded they might have "letter of the law" in the original post, despite my complete disagreement that a crappy plastic sleeve is part of a product.

What I said was to beware of their interesting definition, because it's not something I've come across in other shops, and it's also VERY narrow-minded on their part, because they lost additional sales, and a customer.

First and last time in there.

ilovecars

they could have just took the plastic wrapping from the shirt they were swapping the original with..

Doctor DooM

There's nothing wrong with the goods, Debenhams don't even have to talk to you about it technically.

Unfortunately OP, they're doing nothing wrong, accepting your return would cost them money.

Liam Byrne

Chonker wrote: »

why would you expect the store to sell it on at a loss just because you didnt understand the size??

OK, what part of "I wasn't in the shop and therefore it's nothing to do with me not understanding the size" isn't coming across ?

I know there's always scope for a difference between what a company does and what it "has to" do; I previously called in to O2 with a faulty SatNav for them to check it and they said it had to go back and they'd replace it...... but they might need the box to return it.....that's a proper, printed, product box, not a plastic sleeve.

But they then said they'd use the box from the replacement...

THAT'S cop-on and good customer service. And I'll go back there to O2. But not to Debenhams because if I ever had to replace something they might say that the price tag was on it when it was sold and I'd removed that to give it as a gift, so it wasn't in "saleable condition", the same as everything else on the shelf.

Chonker

Maybe we will just beg to differ on this one buddy.

Ps. they make it so you can see the size through the packaging.:P I know I'm going to be sorry I said that.:D

Doctor DooM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK, what part of "I wasn't in the shop and therefore it's nothing to do with me not understanding the size" isn't coming across ?

I know there's always scope for a difference between what a company does and what it "has to" do; I previously called in to O2 with a faulty SatNav for them to check it and they said it had to go back and they'd replace it...... but they might need the box to return it.....that's a proper, printed, product box, not a plastic sleeve.

But they then said they'd use the box from the replacement...

THAT'S cop-on and good customer service. And I'll go back there to O2. But not to Debenhams because if I ever had to replace something they might say that the price tag was on it when it was sold and I'd removed that to give it as a gift, so it wasn't in "saleable condition", the same as everything else on the shelf.

Sadly, just because you think it doesn't matter does not in fact mean it doesn't. The laws the law.

Knowing O2's proceedures, there are times you can help with things like that and times you can't.

Here's the thing- Debenhams definition of saleable condition is 100% correct. I know you are angry, but your thread titles a bit misleading.


Now for some advice.

Once again, retails stores are a business, all they care about is profit. "Customer care" is simply a tool used to generate more profit.

Send their head office a mail saying that you are disappointed and you will tell all your friends not to shop in Debenhams in future as the policy is very off putting. Money talks, everything else walks in this kind of situation.

Guy:Incognito

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Already answered above, but I'll repeat - the GOODS were in EXACTLY the same condition.

How about this example : you get an appliance delivered by one of the companies that takes away the packaging on delivery, and then need to return it ? Is the packaging part of the appliance ? Would they say "nope, no way" ?

If you go to buy a tv and they hand you the tv and the remote not in a box and just say to you "ah it's grand, this is one someone brought back" , would you be happy enough with that?

ilovecars wrote: »

they could have just took the plastic wrapping from the shirt they were swapping the original with..

If you go to buy a shirt and one of the pile of shirts has obviously been opened, are you going to buy that one?

wmpdd3

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK, what part of "I wasn't in the shop and therefore it's nothing to do with me not understanding the size" isn't coming across ?

I know there's always scope for a difference between what a company does and what it "has to" do; I previously called in to O2 with a faulty SatNav for them to check it and they said it had to go back and they'd replace it...... but they might need the box to return it.....that's a proper, printed, product box, not a plastic sleeve.

But they then said they'd use the box from the replacement...

THAT'S cop-on and good customer service. And I'll go back there to O2. But not to Debenhams because if I ever had to replace something they might say that the price tag was on it when it was sold and I'd removed that to give it as a gift, so it wasn't in "saleable condition", the same as everything else on the shelf.

The message is still not getting through.

Why can't people understand the difference between returning a faulty item and and item they have just changed their mind about?

Kensington

It's gas - the customers who complain about stores not accepting returns on goods because they've been opened, are the very first ones to complain loudly if a store tried to hand them out a product that had been previously opened.

Liam Byrne

SDooM wrote: »

Here's the thing- Debenhams definition of saleable condition is 100% correct. I know you are angry, but your thread titles a bit misleading.

It's the only shop I've hit a brick wall with this issue; like I said, O2 helped out even though - in that case - the box WAS at home and it was "proper" packaging, but they offered to save me the round trip home.

I deliberately phrased the title as a warning, and I think it's fair enough; I admitted from the first post re "the letter of the law" probably being on their side, but it is the only shop that I've encountered this in and therefore my warning to others stands - not an earth-shattering issue (I didn't once accuse them of being "in the wrong", but it's definitely one to consider when choosing a shop to buy stuff in; one that's stubborn and inflexible and picky, or one that will do their best to look after the customer.....and that leads me to your next point....

SDooM wrote: »

"Customer care" is simply a tool used to generate more profit.

Yup - and I'm living proof of that now, because if they'd had an ounce of cop-on or customer care, they'd have been about €150 richer this evening because I'd have bought a few things in addition to the intended exchange - like I said, first time in there and it looked like there was a few things I could've bought.

But after that episode - no way! Would be far too wary of the possible outcome if anything had to be returned (personally) and would DEFINITELY never buy a gift there.

I've already mentioned this to a few people - some of whom have worked in retail outlets - and they've said that post-Christmas is usually flexible because returned gifts can be wrong sizes or have no receipts and they'd never heard of this level of inflexibility and pettyness.

So there's no huge argument about "rights" (never mentioned any); please note that I never asked "can they do this?" or whatever, or suggested they were "wrong"......my opinion vs theirs differ, but that's not a legal standpoint, so all I was saying in the thread - title and post is to beware of their petty and inflexible stance. So I'll stand over that.

Also, thanks for the understanding, at least from some of you......I'm annoyed and stunned (and I'm normally pretty reasonable but this hammered my faith in customer service, big-time), and I hope that's understandable.

Guess now that we're in a recession, we're back to the old adage of "buyer beware"......it's short-sighted, because I'd take the opposite view.....look after a customer and they'll come back (repeat business and referrals being essential in a downturn, no?) ....

But piss them off and they won't.

Liam Byrne

wmpdd3 wrote: »

The message is still not getting through.

Why can't people understand the difference between returning a faulty item and and item they have just changed their mind about?

The message is still not getting through.

You can't "change your mind" about something given to you as a gift. :rolleyes:

Kensington wrote: »

It's gas - the customers who complain about stores not accepting returns on goods because they've been opened, are the very first ones to complain loudly if a store tried to hand them out a product that had been previously opened.

Doesn't apply in my case, sorry! And if it were some item where bits could be lost (e.g. a jigsaw puzzle), fair enough. As I said above, clothes in shops might have been tried on before, so it's not exactly the same. Someone could easily open the plastic wrapper in the shop (resealable tape) to see the shirt in full, and then put it back in. Absolutely no difference.

Doctor DooM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's the only shop I've hit a brick wall with this issue; like I said, O2 helped out even though - in that case - the box WAS at home and it was "proper" packaging, but they offered to save me the round trip home.

I deliberately phrased the title as a warning, and I think it's fair enough; I admitted from the first post re "the letter of the law" probably being on their side, but it is the only shop that I've encountered this in and therefore my warning to others stands - not an earth-shattering issue (I didn't once accuse them of being "in the wrong", but it's definitely one to consider when choosing a shop to buy stuff in; one that's stubborn and inflexible and picky, or one that will do their best to look after the customer.....and that leads me to your next point....



Yup - and I'm living proof of that now, because if they'd had an ounce of cop-on or customer care, they'd have been about €150 richer this evening because I'd have bought a few things in addition to the intended exchange - like I said, first time in there and it looked like there was a few things I could've bought.

But after that episode - no way! Would be far too wary of the possible outcome if anything had to be returned (personally) and would DEFINITELY never buy a gift there.

I've already mentioned this to a few people - some of whom have worked in retail outlets - and they've said that post-Christmas is usually flexible because returned gifts can be wrong sizes or have no receipts and they'd never heard of this level of inflexibility and pettyness.

So there's no huge argument about "rights" (never mentioned any); please note that I never asked "can they do this?" or whatever, or suggested they were "wrong"......my opinion vs theirs differ, but that's not a legal standpoint, so all I was saying in the thread - title and post is to beware of their petty and inflexible stance. So I'll stand over that.

Also, thanks for the understanding, at least from some of you......I'm annoyed and stunned (and I'm normally pretty reasonable but this hammered my faith in customer service, big-time), and I hope that's understandable.

Guess now that we're in a recession, we're back to the old adage of "buyer beware"......it's short-sighted, because I'd take the opposite view.....look after a customer and they'll come back (repeat business and referrals being essential in a downturn, no?) ....

But piss them off and they won't.

See the thing is, not going to argue with that. But unless you tell Debenhams what happened, and that they lost alot of money because of it, nothing will change... because how do they know which sales they have failed to make?

Gordon

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Got loads of other crap about how they'll measure you so that these things don't happen

Yeah? I'll need to go there some time.

Liam Byrne

Gordon wrote: »

Yeah? I'll need to go there some time.

Just make sure you're the exact same size as the person you're buying the gift for!

SDooM wrote: »

See the thing is, not going to argue with that. But unless you tell Debenhams what happened, and that they lost alot of money because of it, nothing will change... because how do they know which sales they have failed to make?

You've me kicking myself now, because if I'd known in advance I would have picked out the other stuff that I was considering buying, brought the lot up to the counter (including the exchange) and then when this transpired they would have known exactly at least ONE occurrence of what sales they had failed to make. Damn!

Ah well, in hindsight, lesson learned, and some other shop that has better service will be getting my cash.

Chonker

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah well, in hindsight, lesson learned, and some other shop that has better service will be getting my cash.

Now count to ten.

Re your post title, were you warning of your interesting definition?

Only kidding:D

I'm guessing they could have gone above and beyond as you were obviously pretty unhappy about the store policy. Should have asked to see the manager he-she may have been able to over rule store policy. If you really are that unhappy contact the store manager.

Liam Byrne

Chonker wrote: »

I'm guessing they could have gone above and beyond as you were obviously pretty unhappy about the store policy. Should have asked to see the manager he-she may have been able to over rule store policy. If you really are that unhappy contact the store manager.

It was the manager!

Not gonna lose sleep over it; like I said, their loss.....a potential new customer who'll never darken their doors again.

bigpinkelephant

OP, to be honest, this is completely petty.
Debenhams had no legal obligation to let you return that shirt, there was nothing wrong with it. It's not their fault or the manufacturer's fault that whoever nought it for you picked the wrong size.
They might have taken it back as a gesture of goodwill if it had been in it's original packaging, but it wasn't.

You can put your hoops back down now, Debenhams aren't going to jump through them for you.

Liam Byrne

Who's being petty ?

I just said that I'd never buy there after this because if I bought a gift I wouldn't be convinced that someone could return it.

Perfectly logical stance after yesterday's events.

Other stores are more reasonable. I'll support them.

Again, perfectly logical.

penexpers

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Other stores are more reasonable. I'll support them.

Most other stores have a returns policy that states that any goods returned that are not faultly have to be in saleable condition. To me, this means all packaging and tags etc.. I certainly wouldn't except any shop to take back an opened shirt.

The return to O2 was different in that the goods were faulty. O2 probably just wanted to protect the item when it was being sent back, nothing to do with saleable condition.

Sam Vimes

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Already answered above, but I'll repeat - the GOODS were in EXACTLY the same condition.

they gave it to you in packaging. it's sold in a packaging. if yo udidn't give it back in packaging then i'm afraid it was not in EXACTLY the same condition. if you had decided you didn't like the style and brought it back unopened it would have been fine because then it would have been in EXACTLY the same condition. But you didn't, you opened it and they're under no obligation whatsoever to do anything for you since it being the wrong size is not their problem

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Which is along the lines of what I said above about the "letter of the law".......

While there's a difference in the analogy because of "changed your mind" (because I didn't, but it's unlikely that someone would just buy you something like an appliance as a gift without checking all the details with you first) I was saying it because it's a far more relevant analogy than the stupid condom one above, and it highlighted the "packaging does not equal goods" aspect.

And if they did refuse I'd be the same and not deal with them again.

Please remember, I didn't say Debenham's were completely "in the wrong"; I actually conceded they might have "letter of the law" in the original post, despite my complete disagreement that a crappy plastic sleeve is part of a product.

What I said was to beware of their interesting definition, because it's not something I've come across in other shops, and it's also VERY narrow-minded on their part, because they lost additional sales, and a customer.

First and last time in there.

there is no law here. the shirt is not faulty, the person who bought it for you made a mistake, they don't have to take it back even if it is in the packaging. they just normally do out of good customer service

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK, what part of "I wasn't in the shop and therefore it's nothing to do with me not understanding the size" isn't coming across ?

but did you not get the shirt on christmas day or whatever, look at it in the packaging and then open the packaging?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Who's being petty ?

I just said that I'd never buy there after this because if I bought a gift I wouldn't be convinced that someone could return it.

Perfectly logical stance after yesterday's events.

Other stores are more reasonable. I'll support them.

Again, perfectly logical.

no i'm afraid it's not perfectly logical. you want a shop to take the loss every single time a customer makes a mistake. such a business does not exist because any business that did that is no longer in business. to you "good customer care" means takes it up the ass from people who don't make sure the size is right before opening the packaging on their new present. why should they take a loss for you?

if you buy someone a gift from there they can return it as long as it's in a saleable condition. you just have to change your definition of saleable condition to a more sensible one

Sam Vimes

ilovecars wrote: »

they could have just took the plastic wrapping from the shirt they were swapping the original with..

the packaging would have been for a different size and would have been labelled and bar coded as such