Beware : Interesting definition of "saleable condition" @ Debenhams

razorblunt

Sam Vimes wrote: »

the packaging would have been for a different size and would have been labelled and bar coded as such

Plus they would have refolded the item and without the proper packaging this couldnt be done.

I've worked in retail long enough (leaving next month, thank God ) and this happens all the time, people dont buy shirts that are opened yet some bring it back that way and think they are perfectly entitled to a refund.

For future reference OP, check the present against the size of your current shirts if they're the same and it fits differently then you have a case for return. Did you bring back any packaging with the shirt?

rubadub

ilovecars wrote: »

they could have just took the plastic wrapping from the shirt they were swapping the original with..

That is possible.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

the packaging would have been for a different size and would have been labelled and bar coded as such

Usually I see a second label, easily peelable, so it could be removed, the size is missing but visible through the plastic. But the folding & collar etc would be hard to do again.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah well, in hindsight, lesson learned, and some other shop that has better service will be getting my cash.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Other stores are more reasonable. I'll support them.

Which stores are these? I expect most would have this policy.

The real lesson to be learned is not to open gifts if you think might be unsuitable. I am guessing you saw the size was probably not right in the first place.

Now if it said a 16" neck and was really only 14" I am not sure where you would stand on the packaging, they would probably still expect it back.

Max Power1

bigpinkelephant wrote: »

Debenhams had no legal obligation to let you return that shirt, there was nothing wrong with it.They might have taken it back as a gesture of goodwill if it had been in it's original packaging, but it wasn't.

Exactly. They (or any store/supplier etc) are legally obliged to accept exchanges when the goods purchased are shown to be faulty or not fit for purpose. Any other exchanges/refunds are completely at the discretion of the retailer.
All the same they could have given you a store credit or something - thats what most other retailers seem to do, in my personal experience anyway

Lollipops23

as someone who works in retail, if we took back an item that had none of the original packaging we'd have to sell it on as "damaged" stock. so, as another poster said, they don't even have to entertain you as it's not damaged. you really should have checked the size on the label before taking it out of the bag OR had the sense to hang on to the bag.

Cabaal

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Already answered above, but I'll repeat - the GOODS were in EXACTLY the same condition.

How about this example : you get an appliance delivered by one of the companies that takes away the packaging on delivery, and then need to return it ? Is the packaging part of the appliance ? Would they say "nope, no way" ?

Clearly they were not, they didn't have the original packaging and as such are not EXACTLY the same condition as they were when bought.

Sure Debenhams could have allowed you to return it as goodwill but they don't have to under any law.

We get it that the item was a gift and shops generally have no problems accepting gift items back as long as they are still can be sold without issues but yours is not as its missing the packaging. As such they don't have to help you in anyway.

Personally given your rantings on here (and I'm sure in the shop as well) if I was running a business I'd rather not deal with you in anyway...makes for an easier life if you didn't darken my door again.

Liam you can complain all you want but your still in the wrong

Good Luck,
Cabaal

Liam Byrne

rubadub wrote: »

I am guessing you saw the size was probably not right in the first place.

Haven't a notion what you're getting at here; you can guess or imply what you want, but I wouldn't have opened it if I knew for definite that it wasn't right!

There is aways scope for about 1 size variation depending on the cut/style/brand, and that's what happened here.

Look, I said I'd live and learn from this, and I NEVER ONCE said they were "WRONG"; I didn't say "INCORRECT DEFINITION", I didn't say "IS THIS LEGAL", I merely warned that they're inflexible and it was poor service as other shops are more understandable in terms of Christmas gifts.

My point is that the phrase "GOODS IN A SALEABLE CONDITION" refers to "GOODS", not to "PACKAGING", and to be aware of that.

If you buy a CD, or some electronic goods, then on the shelf it has a security tag, but if you return it it doesn't.....this needs to be re-attached if it's returned, so if you follow the logic that "it can't be put back on the shelf immediately", then you'd never be able to return those.

And despite Cabaal's patronising accusations of a rant and him/her second-guessing via "I'm sure in the shop as well" (obviously, unless you were there you haven't a clue, so you can't say "I'm sure" in relation to ANYTHING)........FFS, I'm not unreasonable, and if there were ACTUAL PRINTED PACKAGING I could completely understand; in the O2 example above, once I found out it wasn't a quick-fix and had to be returned, I would have headed home for the packaging, no prob....

And yes, there's a part of me that overlooked this and is therefore "in the wrong", in the sense that I could have avoided this if I'd thought ahead; I KNOW that! But the fact that a transparent plastic sleeve was seen as an essential part of a return stunned me - THAT'S "petty". Yes, I was more angry yesterday, and will write this off to experience, but I will also choose to deal with shops that have a little more cop-on - especially when it comes to gifts.

rubadub

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How about this example : you get an appliance delivered by one of the companies that takes away the packaging on delivery, and then need to return it ? Is the packaging part of the appliance ? Would they say "nope, no way" ?

They might well say no way. I got a pair of runners in lifestyle sports and asked if they would take the box, they said yes fine but I would not be able to return them and asked was I sure I was happy with them.

Now I am not sure what happens if they fall to bits after 2 weeks, but that is a warranty issue and I have never been asked for boxes when bringing stuff back in warranty, if they fell to bits they are not able to be resold anyway.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

takes away the packaging on delivery, and then need to return it ?

Return for what reason? because you now found out it doesn't fit in the kitchen? in which case it is not faulty and just like the shirt I would certainly expect them to want the packaging.

BuddhaJoe

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If you buy a CD, or some electronic goods, then on the shelf it has a security tag, but if you return it it doesn't.....this needs to be re-attached if it's returned, so if you follow the logic that "it can't be put back on the shelf immediately", then you'd never be able to return those.

The security tag is not part of the product you are purchasing. The packaging is.

jor el

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I just said that I'd never buy there after this because if I bought a gift I wouldn't be convinced that someone could return it.

If it was returned in it's original packaging, then there wouldn't be a problem. No shop will accept returns (that are not damaged) without the packaging, not just Debenhams, so it's not their interesting take on the definition either.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Other stores are more reasonable. I'll support them.

Which ones? Dunnes have the same policy, as do Argos, Next , PC World and others that I've returned goods to.

It isn't Debenhams problem that you received a gift and didn't check it was OK before disposing of the packaging, so, as there is nothing wrong with it (except it doesn't fit you) it's effectively a change of mind situation. There is also no "letter of the law" as you put it, because legally they don't have to entertain returns at all, regardless of packaging or not.

This is their policy, and IMO, a reasonable one. I also don't believe it's any different to any other store's policy, in this regard.

rubadub

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Haven't a notion what you're getting at here; you can guess or imply what you want, but I wouldn't have opened it if I knew for definite that it wasn't right!

I am wondering if it was your correct size? if I got a shirt that was 18" neck I would know it is not going to fit, so would not bother. If you thought it was the correct size but then did not fit then you could well be in your right to exchange it, i.e. it was not sold as described. You keep saying about it being a gift, but if you bought it yourself it would be the same thing, I buy most shirts without trying them on first.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Look, I said I'd live and learn from this, and I NEVER ONCE said they were "WRONG"; I didn't say "INCORRECT DEFINITION", I didn't say "IS THIS LEGAL", I merely warned that they're inflexible and it was poor service as other shops are more understandable in terms of Christmas gifts.

and nobody said you did ask if it was legal. People just saying this is normal and to be expected. Again I would like to know the other more "understandable" shops (I seriously would, e.g. I like argos as they are very flexible with exchanges & warranty).

Liam Byrne wrote: »

but I will also choose to deal with shops that have a little more cop-on - especially when it comes to gifts.

I don't think the law could really define gifts in shops. I know some shops issue gift receipts with the value not shown, and they might be more flexible on returns (I expect they would still want the packaging though). When buying things I am uncertain about I would usually ask what the situation is with returns, years ago I remember stores writing on the receipt to indicate it could be exchanged.

MOH

Aside from anything else, you didn't buy the shirt, so there's abolutely no onus on the shop to deal with you. They probably would, though, if you'd returned it in a saleable condition, but that's their choice.

Did you get the shirt as a gift without any packaging? Or did you unpack it, throw out the packaging, and then try it on and decide to bring it back?

bigpinkelephant

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But the fact that a transparent plastic sleeve was seen as an essential part of a return stunned me - THAT'S "petty".

Dude, if this is how you react when a shop won't take a shirt back for you, what do you do when you have real problems???

Do Debenhams sell bridge-building materials?

Lollipops23

if i returned a pair of shoes without the box would i be refunded?no.people will not buy an item that's meant to have packaging and is missing it.

who007

I agree with the OP and can't ubderstand why people are jumping on the "why couldn't you get the right size?" bandwagon. She said it was a gift! And the packaging comes apart anyway.. pffft! Debenhams! :rolleyes:

who007

Lollipops23 wrote: »

if i returned a pair of shoes without the box would i be refunded?no.people will not buy an item that's meant to have packaging and is missing it.

They will if it fits - see it all the time in Aldi or Lidl where packaging is missing and people pay the same price for the goods. So I guess they will.

Cabaal

Liam Byrne wrote: »

....<SNIP>, I'm not unreasonable, and if there were ACTUAL PRINTED PACKAGING I could completely understand; in the O2 example above, once I found out it wasn't a quick-fix and had to be returned, I would have headed home for the packaging, no prob....

And yes, there's a part of me that overlooked this and is therefore "in the wrong", in the sense that I could have avoided this if I'd thought ahead; I KNOW that! But the fact that a transparent plastic sleeve was seen as an essential part of a return stunned me - THAT'S "petty". Yes, I was more angry yesterday, and will write this off to experience, but I will also choose to deal with shops that have a little more cop-on - especially when it comes to gifts.

The fact that you are still arguing the stores policy shows your being unreasonable, comparing them to other stores is fine and well but O2 is not Debenhams and different stores have different policy's.

The fact you don't like Debenhams is fine and well but ranting about it till the cows come home is not going to change it.

Liam Byrne

bigpinkelephant wrote: »

Dude, if this is how you react when a shop won't take a shirt back for you, what do you do when you have real problems???

Do Debenhams sell bridge-building materials?

Don't think I've ever replied to - or actually met - anyone who uses the word "Dude", but here goes.....the reaction was perfectly reasonable, and I posted here for anyone who mightn't know about this restriction.

Now, since it seems that almost everyone who's posted here did know, end of discussion. And while some replies are OK, it seems that others want to imply that I shouted the place down and am completely unreasonable - rather than quietly saying in the shop "you're joking? no ? ok, I'll be back in if I can find the wrapper but if not you won't see me in here again".

I was simply looking for a bit of good service and cop on, and believe me, I was completely reasonable in the shop; annoyed and stunned, but perfectly civil and calm. Anyone who's suggested otherwise is talking through their arses, because they weren't there.

Anyways, end of. My thanks to the few that are saying "sorry mate, but while it might suck or be sh!tty, they're in the right" .....actually what I was saying from day one...... but since some people seem to want to have a pop at me and make me out to be an obnoxious "shout the place down" prick, for daring to query the "goods = wrapper" stance despite me NEVER saying "they're in the WRONG", let's just drop it.

Cabaal

who007 wrote: »

They will if it fits - see it all the time in Aldi or Lidl where packaging is missing and people pay the same price for the goods. So I guess they will.

The likes of Lidi are very different, go to high end shoe shops and some people won't buy items without packaging, the fact is if people don't then the store has lost out by accepting back an item that didn't have paclaging.

The shock horror of it all is shops are in it to make money, IMAGINE THAT! :pac: and as such are not in the business of taking chances that could cost them money (receiving back items that do not include correct packaging and thus may not be bought again)

Lollipops23

who007 wrote: »

They will if it fits - see it all the time in Aldi or Lidl where packaging is missing and people pay the same price for the goods. So I guess they will.

you're comparing Aldi with Debenhams?really?
and by the way, if "what" fits?

jor el

who007 wrote: »

They will if it fits - see it all the time in Aldi or Lidl where packaging is missing and people pay the same price for the goods. So I guess they will.

Some people will buy goods without packaging, some won't. In Aldi or Lidl, most (if not all) of the time, the opened goods were not returns, but items opened by customers who wanted to see what it was like. However, that's not the issue anyway. The issue here is that Debenhams won't accept a returned item that is not in it's packaging, which is completely up to Debenhams to do. They choose not to sell items out of their packaging, simple as that.

who007 wrote: »

I agree with the OP and can't ubderstand why people are jumping on the "why couldn't you get the right size?" bandwagon. She said it was a gift! And the packaging comes apart anyway.. pffft! Debenhams! :rolleyes:

Why didn't he check the size, which is written on it, before loosing/disposing of the packaging, or why not try it on as soon as it was opened? And still, Debenhams' policy is the same as every other shop's.

Sam Vimes

basically liam, you're mixing up "saleable condition" with "can be made saleable again with so much loss as to probably make selling it worthless". Not quite the same thing

Chonker

Liam Byrne wrote: »

let's just drop it.

Seriously Dude (Now you have met two of us) do you really think after opening this can of worms these guys are going to drop or let you "take back" anything you have said (Please excuse the intentional pun, poor taste as it)

I seem to be on the pro Deb's side although as a retail store manager I would sooner have taken it back if I thought you were goning to be slinging mud on the net. So I guess you have a point albeit a very very very small one.

Liam may not have come out too pretty in this one but it's also not done Deb's any good so I guess 1-0 to you dude! Goal achieved.

Liam Byrne

Chonker wrote: »

Seriously Dude (Now you have met two of us) do you really think after opening this can of worms these guys are going to drop or let you "take back" anything you have said (Please excuse the intentional pun, poor taste as it)

Never said I was going to take back what I said.....there's no need to. I stand over it.

I seem to be on the pro Deb's side although as a retail store manager I would sooner have taken it back if I thought you were goning to be slinging mud on the net.

Not "slinging mud" - jeez, I queried how the plastic wrapper was such a key part of the sale as to prevent the return, FFS! No more, no less! So I just stated the facts - it's a restrictive policy and while it appears other shops do the same, others don't.

So buying in a shop that doesn't - particularly when it comes to gifts - is a better option for a customer.

Liam may not have come out too pretty in this one.....

I 100% agree, and despite attempts above to make me look like a raving ranting lunatic, I'm kicking myself because it was easily avoided......but like I said, it's not like it was a major box or printed packaging - it was a plastic sleeve! So I didn't think of it, and it could easily have been swapped with the replacement; but that aspect was 100% my "fault" - no argument....I just think they could have handled it better.

But all that's repeating myself and one or two others; I'll know in future.

.....but it's also not done Deb's any good so I guess 1-0 to you dude! Goal achieved

Depends on what you reckon my "goal" was.....I've let people know about their policy, and since some people have even posted that they'd expect that policy, then it would appear that there's no "damage" done to "Deb's".

In actual fact - as I stated earlier - 1-0 to me would have been where I made the exchange, and that would have even become 1-1 because I'd have bought extra stuff there.....rather than "draw-draw", that would have been "win-win" for all concerned.

C'est la vie! I was pissed off yesterday, and like I said their stance wasn't expected; but I've a life to live and at least it wasn't a €300 suit or electrical gift that's ended up in limbo...

bardcom

Buddy, I'm interested in the list of shops you believe would have accepted the shirt without packaging. Primark wouldn't for example.

I'd also say that official store policy for *all* stores would be to not accept items that are not in their original packaging. But individual store managers probably have some discretion on individual transactions, but without the packaging I would guess that most managers would have said No.

I think what's going on here is that your expectation was to have a no-bother no-fuss goods return experience, while most people are would have expected exactly the reaction you received.

Kurtosis

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My point is that the phrase "GOODS IN A SALEABLE CONDITION" refers to "GOODS", not to "PACKAGING", and to be aware of that.

Yes, goods does refer to goods, but where it says IN A SALEABLE CONDITION is the portion of the statement that would cover packaging. As you said yourself, you brought the goods back as they were (shirt still intact), however it was not in a saleable condition.

If you buy a CD, or some electronic goods, then on the shelf it has a security tag, but if you return it it doesn't.....this needs to be re-attached if it's returned, so if you follow the logic that "it can't be put back on the shelf immediately", then you'd never be able to return those.

While this analogy is about as close as we're gonna get to the actual situation it's still a fair bit off. Security tags are plentiful in such shops and take all of about 5 seconds to put back on. On the other hand, what seems to you to be an inconsequential plastic sleeve actually involves far more work. All the packaged shirts are delivered to the shop like that and I'd very much doubt that they have spares (including all the clips, inserts and merchandising that go with them) just lying around and even if they did you're talking a good 10 minutes to pack it all back up. More probable is that they're going to have to send it off to be repackaged or else sell off as damaged stock.

I think their decision and definition are perfectly reasonable.

Chonker

Beware : Interesting definition of "saleable condition" @ Debenhams

The above could be deemed mud slinging. Beware and Debenhams on the same sentance.

The thousands of boards.ie users who have seen it in the consumer issues but may not have bothered reading any further than your title will no doubt tarnish the name in some small way. So 1 - 0 to Liam I say.

Sorry I just had to answer your last post as much as this thing needs to die now.

chrislad

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The message is still not getting through.

You can't "change your mind" about something given to you as a gift. :rolleyes:

If you want to get technical about it, you actually have no rights. The Sales of Goods Act applies to the buyer and the seller. You are neither.

Even if the buyer went back for you, you still wouldn't be entitled to a replacement, as has been said before, the item was not faulty. It doesn't matter that it was the wrong size, in this case. It would be completely different if it said something like 16" neck and you opened it up and it was a 14" neck. That's not your fault. Not checking the size on a gift before removing packaging is an error on your part, and I'd be betting it's not one you'll make again!

Sam Vimes

this is very simple really, the only thing you should ask yourself when you're deciding if something is in a saleable condition is "can it be sold in the condition in which i am handing it back?". If your answer to that question is no and you still think it's in a saleable condition then your definition of saleable is the one you want it to be, not the one it is

I think the thread title should be changed because it's unfair against debenhams. It's liam's definition that's interesting, theirs is the correct one

MOH

You could always try returning it directly to the person who supplied it to you, and see what their returns policy is.

Cabaal

MOH wrote: »

You could always try returning it directly to the person who supplied it to you, and see what their returns policy is.

it was a present, as such it still comes back to Debenhams