Coroner that thinks he's a vehicle safety expert

L1011

Anyone else see this in the Indo - a Kerry coroner trying to order hire car firms not to use the Grande Punto claiming it provides "no protection whatsoever"... against being driven at speed in to a bus.

There is no car on the market that would have survived the collision in question - the front of the car was removed entirely; and to compound his complete lack of knowledge of cars the coroner even makes a reference to a 'steering pump' that the car doesn't have (it has EPAS)...

There's a possible issue that maybe the pretensioners didn't fire - but then again, American tourists in hire cars I've seen drive leaning over the dashboard anyway so I suspect that that is why "the seatbelt was so extended" as the article says.

What gives a jumped up GP the ability to think he's a car safety expert anyway? I hope Fiat Auto Ireland go after him legally for this as its libelous to the firm.

robtri

Haven't seen the article, but he has a much of a right to his opinions and to air his opinions as a jumped up MYOB:D

Anan1

robtri wrote: »

Haven't seen the article, but he has a much of a right to his opinions and to air his opinions as a jumped up MYOB:D

Only if he can support them by reference to the facts.

CreepingDeath

MYOB wrote: »

What gives a jumped up GP the ability to think he's a car safety expert anyway?

If he's scraping the unfortunate passengers off the dashboard I think he's at least got a bit of emotional involvement which gives him the right to say something.

Cookie_Monster

He just stating what everyone knows already, the punto is a terrible terrible car. I'm surprised it stayed together long enough for the tourist to even crash it:D

Anan1

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

He just stating what everyone knows already, the punto is a terrible terrible car. I'm surprised it stayed together long enough for the tourist to even crash it:D

http://www.euroncap.com/tests/fiat_punto_2005/238.aspx

peasant

I haven't read the article, all I can say is that if someone posted on here, saying they're a coroner, publicly demanding that rental fleets discontinue using one specific type of car because s/he deems it to be unsafe ...

...I'd delete that post

A coroner is not an accident investigator ...and s/he isn't NCAP either

Mr.David

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I think he's at least got a bit of emotional involvement which gives him the right to say something.

like.....what a tragedy or express his sympathies.

Not to dismiss (without any proper engineering knowledge) the safety of a car that has been developed comprehensively and tested exhaustively by one of the largest engineering companies in the world, and which I would imagine stands up to comparison with its direct rivals.

Typical ignorant bull**** :mad:

peasant

The other side of the medallion is the typical BS that some garda, ambulance driver or other self appointed "expert" usually spouts at the scene of an accident.

"If you weren't driving this *insert type of car* you'd be dead now, I tells ya"

partyguinness

MYOB wrote: »

Anyone else see this in the Indo - a Kerry coroner trying to order hire car firms not to use the Grande Punto claiming it provides "no protection whatsoever"... against being driven at speed in to a bus.

There is no car on the market that would have survived the collision in question - the front of the car was removed entirely; and to compound his complete lack of knowledge of cars the coroner even makes a reference to a 'steering pump' that the car doesn't have (it has EPAS)...

There's a possible issue that maybe the pretensioners didn't fire - but then again, American tourists in hire cars I've seen drive leaning over the dashboard anyway so I suspect that that is why "the seatbelt was so extended" as the article says.

What gives a jumped up GP the ability to think he's a car safety expert anyway? I hope Fiat Auto Ireland go after him legally for this as its libelous to the firm.

Firstly, I suspect that the "jumped up GP" knows a hell of alot more about the case than you do.

Secondly, it was the Gardai that highligted the issue with the car and wrote to Fiat. Fiat now have installed knee airbags as a result.

Mate you have just made yourself sound like a complete prat..:rolleyes:

Saab Ed

partyguinness wrote: »

Firstly, I suspect that the "jumped up GP" knows a hell of alot more about the case than you do.

Secondly, it was the Gardai that highligted the issue with the car and wrote to Fiat. Fiat now have installed knee airbags as a result.

Mate you have just made yourself sound like a complete prat..:rolleyes:

Sorry im not trying to contradict you but " Fiat have now installed airbags as a result of the Gardai highlighting the issue" . And I cant find the article which the OP refers to. A lot of hearsay in here. Can anybody back any of this up......Please dont take my head off for asking.

peasant

partyguinness wrote: »

prat

easy on the insults there ...

partyguinness

Saab Ed wrote: »

Sorry im not trying to contradict you but " Fiat have now installed airbags as a result of the Gardai highlighting the issue" . And I cant find the article which the OP refers to. A lot of hearsay in here. Can anybody back any of this up......Please dont take my head off for asking.

I read the article in the Irish Times this morning. The OP read the Indo (which explains a lot).

partyguinness

peasant wrote: »

easy on the insults there ...

Point taken...but come on...did you read the last paragraph by the OP?:eek:

Mr.David

Dear Mr. Sergio Marchionne,

I am a guard from Camp, sure ye know back beyond the far side of Brandon. Anyhow, one of Paddy Reilly's youngsters (divils that they are) had an awful tip in one of your motorcars. Terrible stuff, sure his knees were in ribbons afterwards he was bushted. Fecked, plain and simple.

Now, I feel 'tis my duty as the village guard to tell you that there will be no more of your jalopies allowed here until you sort this bloody thing out.

Poor old Reilly, sure he was destined to play for the Kingdom dont ya know?

From,

Guard O'Toole

Ya, I'm sure Fiat redesigned their best selling car because of a letter from a guard.....:P

Saab Ed

Mr.David wrote: »

Dear Mr. Sergio Marchionne,

I am a guard from Camp, sure ye know back beyond the far side of Brandon. Anyhow, one of Paddy Reilly's youngsters (divils that they are) had an awful tip in one of your motorcars. Terrible stuff, sure his knees were in ribbons afterwards he was bushted. Fecked, plain and simple.

Now, I feel 'tis my duty as the village guard to tell you that there will be no more of your jalopies allowed here until you sort this bloody thing out.

Poor old Reilly, sure he was destined to play for the Kingdom dont ya know?

From,

Guard O'Toole

Ya, I'm sure Fiat redesigned their best selling car because of a letter from a guard.....:P

Not just what I had in mind when I asked for proof

partyguinness

Mr.David wrote: »

Dear Mr. Sergio Marchionne,

I am a guard from Camp, sure ye know back beyond the far side of Brandon. Anyhow, one of Paddy Reilly's youngsters (divils that they are) had an awful tip in one of your motorcars. Terrible stuff, sure his knees were in ribbons afterwards he was bushted. Fecked, plain and simple.

Now, I feel 'tis my duty as the village guard to tell you that there will be no more of your jalopies allowed here until you sort this bloody thing out.

Poor old Reilly, sure he was destined to play for the Kingdom dont ya know?

From,

Guard O'Toole

Ya, I'm sure Fiat redesigned their best selling car because of a letter from a guard.....:P

That's a very mature and significant contribution to the discussion. Reverting to regional stereotyping..very intelligent.Apparently it's a well known prob with Fiat Puntos and this is not the first time is has been highlighted after crashes.

Zube

Garda public service vehicle inspector Jim O’Brien, who examined the scene and the vehicles, said Fiat had responded to the Garda letter, which was based on a number of incidents, and said its new Punto cars were being fitted with knee air bags.

Fiat did not say this design change was as a response to this incident.

The woman who died was slumped at the wheel, at the full extension of her seatbelt, when her car veered onto the wrong side of the road and hit a bus head on.

Knee airbags would not help when your legs are taken clean off.

Bluefoam

I think if a full engineering report is drawn up on the causes of the accident & the effects of the accident on that particular car in comparison to other benchmark models in similar circumstances - then I think they could have a case to bring the matter up with Fiat.

As it is, the Punto meets a strict set of guidelines on car production called NCAP & many other models/brands would have had similar results in the circumstances...

Opinion (educated or not) is not enough to take such a strong stance against a product.

Mr.David

partyguinness wrote: »

That's a very mature and significant contribution to the discussion. Reverting to regional stereotyping..very intelligent.Apparently it's a well known prob with Fiat Puntos and this is not the first time is has been highlighted after crashes.

Have a sense of humour captain planet

L1011

CreepingDeath wrote: »

If he's scraping the unfortunate passengers off the dashboard I think he's at least got a bit of emotional involvement which gives him the right to say something.

He's a coroner not a pathologist, there is ever chance he never saw the crash and he may not ever have seen the body.

partyguinness wrote: »

Firstly, I suspect that the "jumped up GP" knows a hell of alot more about the case than you do.

Secondly, it was the Gardai that highligted the issue with the car and wrote to Fiat. Fiat now have installed knee airbags as a result.

Mate you have just made yourself sound like a complete prat..:rolleyes:

The knee airbags were added - as an option I might add - in Series 2 Grande Puntos. The car in the crash was a Series 2 (red badge indicates this) so I would suspect the hire car firm did not pay for said option.

It was most certainly not added because a Garda wrote to Fiat - and Fiat Ireland stated they didn't receive a letter. (edit: although how they 'responded' if they haven't yet received any letter as claimed is an interesting impossibility! dodgy journalism...)

As goes your jibe about the paper I read; I get the Indo free in work.

Cosmo K

Apparently it's a well known prob with Fiat Puntos and this is not the first time is has been highlighted after crashes.

Source?

partyguinness

I wasnt suggesting that just because the Gardai wrote to Fiat. I was saying that the Gardai have written to Fiat (but we are only going on what we read in the papers).The issue must have arsien before and Fiat are aware of it. So Its fair to suggest that they other authorities across Europe have come across the same situation. Another poster said that Fiat plan on putting them in the next model.

The coroner would have access to the medical reports, autopsys, etc and subsequent Gardai reports, fire safety officer etc photos would be included. His attendance at the scene would be pointless. Coroners are usually double up as lawyers.His conclusions are based on those reports and recommendations by Gardai and medical staff.He made his statement after hearing that the Gardai had written to Fiat.

Now I think it is fair to assume that the Gardai in question have a lot of experience with car accidents and deemed it necessary to write to Fiat.Now calling on Car hire firms not to rent out Fiat Puntos is extreme. By all accounts it was pretty much head-on with a bus and the driver had very little chance.

The report was sparse as to the exact cause of death but there is nothing libelious about his suggestions.

partyguinness

Cosmo K wrote: »

Source?

Note use of the word "apparently".

Why else would Fiat insert knee airbags or look to make them standard in their next model? According to previous post, they are optional so clearly Fiat have concerns.

It is fair to conclude that such a change would not be brought about by just one car accident and that it has been highlighted to them before.

Bluefoam

partyguinness wrote: »

Why else would Fiat insert knee airbags

Every manufacturer is increasing safety in their cars. Why do Volvo include airbags?

Car manufacturers are constantly increasing the safety spec of their cars...

WTF

Lets clarify this: having a crash in a car is dangerous & can have terrible consequences. No car 100% safe. The manufacturers can do one thing & that is to add as much safety equipment as possible - on a car like the Punto, which is in the cost sensitive end of the market they need to add this equipment as it becomes cost effective - there is no point in loading a car like the Punto with equipment if you need to sell it for 30k to get a return...

On the plus side, the cost of safety equipment is becoming more feasible throughout the car segments, so our cars should become more & more safe as new models and specs are released...

I think we are a long way from driving cheap cars that are capable of having a high speed collision with a bus and coming away without casualties...

Johnny Utah

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere travelling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

partyguinness

Bluefoam wrote: »

Every manufacturer is increasing safety in their cars. Why do Volvo include airbags?

Car manufacturers are constantly increasing the safety spec of their cars...

WTF

Clearly just a complete coincidence then..unfortunately thats how road safety evolves..by experience of crashes and the injuries to occupants.

partyguinness

Johnny Utah wrote: »

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere travelling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Yes..welcome to the world of Law and Economics..very popular during the 70s and 80s in the USA. Embraced by Ronald Regan and part of the Reganomics matra.

Very well known case of Ford in the '70s adopting that attitude. A problem was discovered with ones of its models that caused the fuel tank to catch fire.

I cant think of the model, but there were millions of these cars produced and it would only have taken a very minor adjustment to the production line to move a electrical wire a few inches from the fuel tank to prevent the fire. But it would have cost 100s of millions to recall all the cars and chnage the production line.

Ford calculated that the chance of the fuel tank catching fire and people dying as being very very small. Therefore the cost of the recall far outweighed the cost to familes if the car caught fire. So they left it go.

I think 9 people died altogether from that fault.

Mr.David

this is ridiculous!!

You cannot draw such conclusions from one sample. Suppose the bus that the car crashed into had a reinforced bulkhead that impacted at the level of the drivers knee in this case - you cannot design for such a unique situation.

Conclusions can only be drawn from hard data and analysis - the car would have been tested both virtually and in the real world and its structure would have been validated. In order to fault this there would need to be controlled testing on a number of samples, not some unqualified guard simply observing the aftermath of an accident.

Its insulting to members of the engineering community!

Bluefoam

partyguinness wrote: »

Clearly just a complete coincidence then..unfortunately thats how road safety evolves..by experience of crashes and the injuries to occupants.

Exactly, it is well known that knee airbags are beneficial in the event of a crash - I'm sure there is plenty of evidence to show that the Punto will benefit from the addition of this technology.

However, I would doubt whether Fiat would add that technology as the result of one crash in the arsehole of Ireland...

L1011

Fiat added knee airbags as an option before the crash happened and before the vehicle involved in the crash was built - they would have been an option on said vehicle - due to there clearly being some demand for them. The car by default in poverty spec - rare as a personal purchase but common in fleets - only comes with driver (legally required I think) and passenger airbags.

Unless the Garda had a time machine his letter could not have had an impact on them introducing them!

As goes the coroners statements being libelous - he claimed the car provided "no protection at all" for the impact in question, when it in fact provided class leading protection for a car of its size. That it wasn't enough to save the occupant is irrelevant, his statement is untrue and damaging.

bazz26

Maybe we should get Quincy in to put this story right:

partyguinness

Mr.David wrote: »

this is ridiculous!!

You cannot draw such conclusions from one sample. Suppose the bus that the car crashed into had a reinforced bulkhead that impacted at the level of the drivers knee in this case - you cannot design for such a unique situation.

Conclusions can only be drawn from hard data and analysis - the car would have been tested both virtually and in the real world and its structure would have been validated. In order to fault this there would need to be controlled testing on a number of samples, not some unqualified guard simply observing the aftermath of an accident.

Its insulting to members of the engineering community!

Thats the problem here..we can only comment on what we are reading in the paper..therefore all our comments must be qualified on that basis.

Second, we have no idea of the guards qualificatios. He might have an a Phd in car crash technology from MIT and worked as an engineer in the car industry for 20 years for all we know. You are too quick to dismiss that aspect...am sure it wasn some bog standard guard straight out of Templemore that wrote to Fiat. Dont they have technical experts who investigate the scene? Surely they are qualified.

Also, if Fiat do put in knee bags it would only be after extensive tests not just beacuse of one head on collision in Kerry...

daveharnett

robtri wrote: »

Haven't seen the article, but he has a much of a right to his opinions and to air his opinions as a jumped up MYOB:D

No he doesn't. He is giving what could be perceived as a professional opinion in an area in which he has no professional expertise.

The only thing that this guy has going for him is that any reasonable person should realise that he is talking nonense, and that no car can be expected to protect occupants from a head on collision with a bus.

partyguinness

MYOB wrote: »

Fiat added knee airbags as an option before the crash happened and before the vehicle involved in the crash was built - they would have been an option on said vehicle - due to there clearly being some demand for them. The car by default in poverty spec - rare as a personal purchase but common in fleets - only comes with driver (legally required I think) and passenger airbags.

Unless the Garda had a time machine his letter could not have had an impact on them introducing them!

As goes the coroners statements being libelous - he claimed the car provided "no protection at all" for the impact in question, when it in fact provided class leading protection for a car of its size. That it wasn't enough to save the occupant is irrelevant, his statement is untrue and damaging.

Will you declare your vested interest?:)

Mr.David

partyguinness wrote: »

Thats the problem here..we can only comment on what we are reading in the paper..therefore all our comments must be qualified on that basis.

Yes, and you are the one being sensationalist and siting heresay

Second, we have no idea of the guards qualificatios. He might have an a Phd in car crash technology from MIT and worked as an engineer in the car industry for 20 years for all we know. You are too quick to dismiss that aspect

Hmm......Somehow I doubt he does

...am sure it wasn some bog standard guard straight out of Templemore that wrote to Fiat.

Why are you so sure?

Dont they have technical experts who investigate the scene? Surely they are qualified.

Are they qualified mechanical engineers? Do they perform FEA analysis on body structures?

Also, if Fiat do put in knee bags it would only be after extensive tests

Exactly, not because of some guards letter

not just beacuse of one head on collision in Kerry...

Fey!

RE: the knee airbags; did anyone look at the NCAP site linked to earlier?

NCAP wrote:

Front impact
Structures in the knee-impact area represented potential hazards to the knee and femur protection on the driver's side.

It's not as if they weren't aware of an airbag issue before an alleged letter from the local Gardai.

If you go head on into something the size and weight of a bus, or truck, in something the size and weight of a small car, then you're not going to come out of it well. If both vehicles were doing 80% of the speed limit on a national route (i.e. 80kph each), then you have a combined speed at inpact of 160kph, or 100mph. At those speeds, the odds of the driver surviving are going to be very low in any car the supermini or small family car classes.

Bear in mind that the Punto has a 5 star NCAP for the driver; it doesn't go any higher. By the Kerry coroners reckoning, you'd have to also exclude the 2007 Mini, 2007 Fiat 500, 2008 Fiesta, 2007 Mazda 2, 2006 Corsa, 2005 Pug 1007, 2006 Pug 207, 2007 Pug 207cc, 2005 Clio, 2004 Modus, 2008 Ibiza, and the 2005 Yaris. These are ALL 5 star cars, so they're the top rated superminis on the NCAP system. Click here for a comparison of all of the 5 star superminis, and click here for a list of everything NCAP has in their supermini category.

Perhaps the coroner should keep his ill-informed opinions to himself, and see to it that those who speak in his court do the same.

partyguinness

Mr.David wrote: »

How am I beinig sensationalist? We are commenting on an article in this morings paper. So what if its hearsay? Are you suggesting that only being at the coronors court personally would allow me to comment? Nonsense. This is not a court of law:rolleyes:

I am only as "sure" in my conclusions/observations as you or anyone else here is.

His comments were based on the facts/reports before him and prepared by experts in their field.

As I have said already, the suggestion that carhire firms should not use Puntos was extreme but his comments are more informed than any of our opinions whether we like them or not. To suggest that he has libeled Fiat may on fact be libelous...:eek:

Mr.David

1. Person died following collision at speed with a bus. Not due to a flawed car, but to the massive momentum involved in the crash.

2. Coroner wrongly expresses opinion making bold claims without any hard evidence to support. Ill-informed and unwise at best.

3. Fiat standardise knee airbags in an unrelated move.

End of

peasant

somebody please post a link to the articles ...this is going nowhere without them

Cionád

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0127/1232923367489.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/coroner-in-punto-rental-warning-1615614.html

partyguinness

Mr.David wrote: »

1. Person died following collision at speed with a bus. Not due to a flawed car, but to the massive momentum involved in the crash.

2. Coroner wrongly expresses opinion making bold claims without any hard evidence to support. Ill-informed and unwise at best.

3. Fiat standardise knee airbags in an unrelated move.

End of

And you know this..how exactly.... and how does someone "wrongly express [an opinion]"?. Didnt realise there was a right and wrong way:rolleyes:..you dont agree with it..fair enough.

Have you got information relating to the crash that the Coronor doesnt have? I doubt it.

End of.

Cionád

Why would the coroner advise the companies not to hire "such cars" to tourists? What if the woman had been driving a hummer and slumped at the wheel of that and ploughed into a ten year old 1-star NCAP rated car killing the occupants of that car. Would he then change his tune and adise hire car companies to hire "such cars" to tourists instead?

It's circumstantial, she hit a bus head on. Don't blame the car.

Saab Ed

After reading the article I really cant see how a knee airbag would have made much of a difference anyway. Looks nasty..

I think this sums it up really. "collided with an 11-tonne Bus Eireann coach"

I dont think he was right to single out the Punto. No small car is going to come out of a crash with a bus and be in anywhere near one piece. If it were a more minor crash with a similar sized object and the occupants were not protected maybe it would raise a few eye brows but there is no guarantee of surviving a crash with a bus in any car really.

daveharnett

partyguinness wrote: »

And you know this..how exactly.... and how does someone "wrongly express [an opinion]"?. Didnt realise there was a right and wrong way:rolleyes:..you dont agree with it..fair enough.

She expressed an opinion which
A: She should not have expressed, given her position.
B: Was not factually correct.

A: I would have no problem with the local butcher expressing such an opinion. Given his job, nobody would expect him to have any particular knowledge of the field, and his opinions would be understood as just that - his opinion. She on the other hand, is considered enough of an authority that the newspapers consider her worth quoting - so she should keep her unqualified personal opinions to herself.

B: "...driving these vehicles gives no protection whatsoever." Obviously this is not remotely factually correct. Hyperbole aside if 'these vehicles' means Puntos, then the NCAP tests disagree. If 'these vehicles' means superminis in general, well does she want avis renting tanks to tourists? These are about the only type of vehicle which would protect against head on collisions with buses.

SV

This thread is a train wreck.


(sure they offer no protection either! :rolleyes:)

L1011

partyguinness wrote: »

Will you declare your vested interest?:)

Work in medical, drive a Fiat.

partyguinness

daveharnett wrote: »

She expressed an opinion which
A: She should not have expressed, given her position.
B: Was not factually correct.

A: I would have no problem with the local butcher expressing such an opinion. Given his job, nobody would expect him to have any particular knowledge of the field, and his opinions would be understood as just that - his opinion. She on the other hand, is considered enough of an authority that the newspapers consider her worth quoting - so she should keep her unqualified personal opinions to herself.

B: "...driving these vehicles gives no protection whatsoever." Obviously this is not remotely factually correct. Hyperbole aside if 'these vehicles' means Puntos, then the NCAP tests disagree. If 'these vehicles' means superminis in general, well does she want avis renting tanks to tourists? These are about the only type of vehicle which would protect against head on collisions with buses.

Mate..I am stating the bleedin' obvious here but that is part of her job as coronor and is based on the facts in front of her. She wld prob say that she had a sound basis for her opinion and would wave the various reports around..

Yeah a blanket dismissal of Puntos like that was extreme and why only tourists? Is it ok for the rest of ireland to drive them. Then again I dont think Fiat sell cars in the USA so maybe that was her logic.

Lets be honest (and slighty off point)..the only people I see driving Puntos are boy racers/bottle blonde single mothers and certain ethnic minorities..:p

partyguinness

MYOB wrote: »

Work in medical, drive a Fiat.

:D:D:D

Thats explains the touchyness...:)

L1011

Why has the coroner become a woman in the past few posts? "Terence Casey" might not be impressed...