Official: LoI supporters are real fans

Racing Flat

Des wrote: »

Wrong, the reason the league is on it's knees is because there aren't enough football fans in this country.

CiaranC wrote: »

Uh, it makes a difference to fellow fans and the gate receipts if we go.

SectionF wrote: »

It makes a difference to the development of the game, Jimmy. You get satisfaction out of it, but you also put something in.

CiaranC wrote: »

Its great that you say you want the league "with high quality football, healthy clubs and packed stadiums", but if until Irish people become football fans in the traditional sense its not going to happen.

It would appear from above that some LOI fans would like to increase the number of fans to increase the income to LOI clubs which will help to sustain and possibly improve the product of Irish football. However with statements like those below I think they are going about it the wrong way.

CiaranC wrote: »

The trouble traditional football fans have with plastics is that they see them as actually damaging football.

CiaranC wrote: »

Premiership Paddy encapsulates everything that is wrong with modern football. And most of them dont even know it.

CiaranC wrote: »

How is a person, with no family or local connection to a club, who has never even been to the clubs city, who comes from a different country, who commits no time or money beyond buying a replica shirt in any way comparable to someone who is a member, a season ticket holder, a volunteer or a weekly attendee of a football club from their area?

Its nothing to do with the LoI. Plastics, daytrippers and the prawn sandwich brigades from the likes of Ireland and Asia are ruining football.

I imagine that the greatest potential market for new LOI fans would be people who already like football. The vast majority of people in this country who like football probably support and watch EPL teams primarily. So this should be the market you are aiming to infiltrate. But I can't see how calling them fake, accusing them of ruining the game and belittling them with name calling is going to help. You're hardly going to guilt them into going to see LOI games and by alienating them and trying to make them feel bad about what they like you are more likely to put them off the LOI, as you are making them feel unwelcome if you ask me.

How about trying this...the next time someone comes into work (or on boards) and says 'Weren't Man Utd. great last night' rather than saying 'Ah you plastic fan, you are fake, you cannot be as connected to your club as I am to mine, you are ruining Irish football, you are not a patriot', how about saying 'Ya wasn't Ronaldo's goal great, Joe Gamble scored a very similar goal last week, why don't you come down to Turners Cross with me Friday night, we'll have a great laugh, have a few pints after and then the next morning we can go for breakfast and watch Man Utd. v Fulham at 11.45 on Sky Sports!'.

You're more likely to get him to come along with the second approach IMO. And by increasing your fan base, you will be helping out your club and your League and your game, now that's a real fan! Be constructive, not destructive; proactive, not reactive; positive, not negative and all that. More productive if you believe management theory!!!

SectionF wrote: »

But I can see no one, or at most very few, suggesting on this forum that it is somehow not legitimate to support an English team.
The problem is not supporting an Irish one. They are not mutually exclusive.

Exactly.

eagle eye

Zebra3 wrote: »

I never said letting Drogheda was a great move. I merely stated the facts that Dundalk knew what they signed up for in advance. It's not everyone else's fault they were so brain dead that they celebrated a non-existent promotion.

So the promotion playoff was not a promotion playoff, why on earth was it played so?

Zebra3 wrote: »

Two. :rolleyes:

I wasn't insulting your age, I was just asking if you remembered those times.

Zebra3 wrote: »

You said:"Since the late '80s early '90s that league had been sliding into oblivion." Grounds have been improved since then. Clubs are far more involved at community level. European results? Well, you can pick and choose certain results to back up your arguement.

Before the league slid into oblivion as you claim, Harps lost 16-1 in Europe, Drogheda lost 14-0 to Spurs, Dundalk lost 14-0 to Liverpool...while recently Shels knocked out Hajduk split, drew with Deportive (CL semi-finalists), drew with Lille, Bohs and Derry have knocked out Scotish sides, derry and Pat's have knocked out Swedish sides......

There were some wide margin results but you are talking about Hadjuk split as though they are a European powerhouse. And Deportivo had a good year previous to the game against Shels and a terrible season the year they played Shels, they did not do well in the Champions League that year and did not do well in La Liga either.
Now you bring up the bad results, have there been none of them recently?
Anyways we can go forwards and backwards here all day but I supported it for long eniough. There is no reason for it, I can watch a local soccer team and enjoy the game, why on earth would I want to travel to a below average professional game when I can get a flight to Manchester and go see top professionals for half nothing.
As mentioned earlier Louis Kilcoyne sold the home of Shamrock Rovers and got the prize of top job in the FAI. That just shows the bunch of idiots you are dealing with.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not judging by the rubbish you post here. :rolleyes:

The fact that you may feel really, really strongly about LOI football does not make your opinions unrubbish.

Zebra3

eagle eye wrote: »

So the promotion playoff was not a promotion playoff, why on earth was it played so?

So you're agreing with me that Dundalk were stupid to celebrate their non-existent promotion?

eagle eye wrote: »

There were some wide margin results but you are talking about Hadjuk split as though they are a European powerhouse. And Deportivo had a good year previous to the game against Shels and a terrible season the year they played Shels, they did not do well in the Champions League that year and did not do well in La Liga either.
Now you bring up the bad results, have there been none of them recently?

So you're agreeing with me that anyone can quote any results from Europe to back up their points. Milan weren't a European powerhouse when Athlone played them and of course there has been bad results lately. Again that was my point. Thanks for backing it up.

We drew 0-0 with Deportivo four months after they beat Milan 4-0. I can only assume they were worn out after playing us twice and that's why they had a dip in form that season. Understandable.

eagle eye wrote: »

Anyways we can go forwards and backwards here all day but I supported it for long eniough. There is no reason for it, I can watch a local soccer team and enjoy the game, why on earth would I want to travel to a below average professional game when I can get a flight to Manchester and go see top professionals for half nothing.

My season ticket costs €200. The same cost of one of your half-nothing trips to sit in the upper north stand at OT to watch Man U piss on Barnsley or Charlton?

eagle eye wrote: »

As mentioned earlier Louis Kilcoyne sold the home of Shamrock Rovers and got the prize of top job in the FAI. That just shows the bunch of idiots you are dealing with. .

So you don't go to OT now cos the Glaziers own MU?

eagle eye wrote: »

The fact that you may feel really, really strongly about LOI football does not make your opinions unrubbish.

I've merely been pointing out how much rubbish you're posting, that's all.

DSB

I'm gonna try and post this in the least condescending way ever. To be honest, any discussion like this has to be deeply rooted in history and traditions, as to how this situation came about and why. Obviously the standard of the LOI being much inferior to that in the Premiership, is a massive cause for it, but there are probably more important reasons. TV and its comforts being the obvious 1. Match of The Day was first broadcast in 1964 and attendances have been falling ever since.

It was at this point (through Match Of The Day) that instead of supporting the local club, Irish people decided they had an undying alliegance to an English club, not that I can talk, at about 6 I decided I supported Villa having watched them beat Arsenal 2-1 on Match Of The Day, that I supported Villa. Of course, I wasn't a real fan, I probably didn't watch them on Match Of The Day for another year, and Sky's coverage was still a little bit more subtle than the barrage of TV football we're exposed to these days. But if anyone asked me, I was a Villa fan, and I'd slag the United fans in school if Villa beat United (not they really ever did), and this made me feel more of a Villa fan. This probably hasn't changed at all, grown men who are Liverpool or United fans still seem to act like the show of heroism they just saw on tv gives them something over the person beside them in the pub, who witnessed their side put in a cowardly performance.

40 years ago, it was just Match Of The Day of course, and highlights, even extended highlights, certainly wouldn't have given the Irish Premiership fan, a leg to stand on, in an argument like this. 46 years ago, anyone who claimed they supported an English side would be laughed out of it. But Rupert Murdoch, and more recently Michael O'Leary, seem to have given the Irish Premiership fan a sense of gratification, a sense of belonging, because nowadays the Irish Premiership fan can watch every single game from their couch, be it on Sky, Setanta, some foreign channel or a stream on their computer, and bejaysus, everyone has the internet these days. Michael O'Leary has given the Irish Premiership fan even more of a sense of belonging, day trips are fairly cheap if you just Ryanair it, and obviously being exposed to the local match-going fan is always going to make you feel a part of it.

The NFL seems to be undergoing a similar phenomenon, a good few of my mates, now support NFL teams since it started out on Sky. 5 years ago they probably didn't know these teams existed. They're not nailing their jersey to the cross just yet, but I imagine they will be, if the coverage of American Football, becomes as saturated over here, as Premiership football has. I'm not sure there is a proper American Football league over here (personally I couldn't care less), but if there was, I can be 100% sure they wouldn't go. On the other hand it seems GAA has benefited from the fact that there isn't an alternative league on in another country on Sky TV, yeah its covered by RTE, but nowhere near to the same extent.

So the question I suppose I'd make is that over the 45 years since Match Of The Day has been broadcast, has the Irish Premiership become more of a real fan than it was 46 years ago, or do they just have more opportunities to watch Premiership football? I know if the trend did suddenly change, and League Of Ireland football grew in standard, and TV coverage expanded to the saturated level of Premiership football, the League Of Ireland fan certainly wouldn't become more of a real fan. There'd be less fans bothering to go to wet away nights in Limerick, and less people being actively involved in the club, as it seems that with the TV fan, its more about what they can get from the club, as opposed to what they can give. So what makes the Premiership that much different is what I'm wondering? Over 46 years, how has the Irish Premiership fan become more legitimate? Yes we all love football, and I'd gladly sit and watch football on TV for hours, but that doesn't make me a true Villa fan, or a true Barca fan, or a true Argentina fan, I've just got more opportunities to watch them now.

eagle eye

I might be in a more unique position to understand the LOI situation than most. I was born in Dublin and lived there for the first 11 years of my life, I moved to a county that had no LOI club and everybody I met in school talked only about English football. I stayed a fan for a couple more years of an LOI club but through happenings in the league which annoyed me, and no interest in discussion of it amongst my group of friends I got totally away from it. The fact that I lived over an hours drive on bad roads from the nearest LOI ground and didn't have my own transport didn't help either.

In most counties in Ireland, young kids get exposed at an early age to GAA, its the biggest sport in this country. You are taught how to play and also about the rivalries between clubs and counties. The majority that grow up in these counties become GAA fans first and Soccer fans after that. You mention the increasing coverage of English soccer in this country and thats had a lot to do with it.

There is no outlet for young soccer fans in this country in a lot of counties. Those who come from counties like this and end up supporting an LOI team have more than likely moved to that town or city before they got involved in following a team. If you don't move to one of these towns or cities you don't ever get exposed to the game. You do get exposed to the EPL though as its on the TV 24/7 and almost everybody loves to watch a game of soccer, and for most people its natural to shout for one team or another. You are told by television and by friends that if you shout for a team you are a supporter of the team. So now we have the guy who was never exposed to LOI and is certain he is a fan of Liverpool or whoever. The next step is to try and watch as many games as possible, and then to travel to games.

The LOI and the LOI clubs have only themselves to blame for this, they cannot blame RTE, BBC or whoever for putting on what the tv viewers want to watch. They have to put together a product that is attractive to these people. They have never done that. How can you expect someone in Leitrim to care about a Dublin vs Dubln soccer match or Dublin vs Cork soccer match when its never going to affect he/she as they have no team in their area who will ever play those teams. Thats why I posted the idea of a county by county league.

As I said it would take a lot of years to take off, but you can see how it would succeed. Firstly you would have previously untapped potential coming through which could only be good for Irish Soccer, then you would have the county rivalries which is something that has been built into the Irish sporting psyche. It goes on from there, even if your county is not that successful, you could have discovered a player in that county who ends up transferring to one of the bigger clubs/counties, that will draw interest from people also.

While I mentioned a county by county league, I was not saying a total GAA package, but one that would include transfers and all the other stuff which is part of league soccer.

If you look at the American model, the MLS has only one team per city and its growing with more cities looking to get a team in the league, the NFL has two teams in New York but not in any other city. The NBA has two Los Angeles teams. Its a great system and it works because of a draft system and a salary cap in some cases.

DSB

eagle eye wrote: »

I might be in a more unique position to understand the LOI situation than most. I was born in Dublin and lived there for the first 11 years of my life, I moved to a county that had no LOI club and everybody I met in school talked only about English football. I stayed a fan for a couple more years of an LOI club but through happenings in the league which annoyed me, and no interest in discussion of it amongst my group of friends I got totally away from it. The fact that I lived over an hours drive on bad roads from the nearest LOI ground and didn't have my own transport didn't help either.

In most counties in Ireland, young kids get exposed at an early age to GAA, its the biggest sport in this country. You are taught how to play and also about the rivalries between clubs and counties. The majority that grow up in these counties become GAA fans first and Soccer fans after that. You mention the increasing coverage of English soccer in this country and thats had a lot to do with it.

There is no outlet for young soccer fans in this country in a lot of counties. Those who come from counties like this and end up supporting an LOI team have more than likely moved to that town or city before they got involved in following a team. If you don't move to one of these towns or cities you don't ever get exposed to the game. You do get exposed to the EPL though as its on the TV 24/7 and almost everybody loves to watch a game of soccer, and for most people its natural to shout for one team or another. You are told by television and by friends that if you shout for a team you are a supporter of the team. So now we have the guy who was never exposed to LOI and is certain he is a fan of Liverpool or whoever. The next step is to try and watch as many games as possible, and then to travel to games.

The LOI and the LOI clubs have only themselves to blame for this, they cannot blame RTE, BBC or whoever for putting on what the tv viewers want to watch. They have to put together a product that is attractive to these people. They have never done that. How can you expect someone in Leitrim to care about a Dublin vs Dubln soccer match or Dublin vs Cork soccer match when its never going to affect he/she as they have no team in their area who will ever play those teams. Thats why I posted the idea of a county by county league.

As I said it would take a lot of years to take off, but you can see how it would succeed. Firstly you would have previously untapped potential coming through which could only be good for Irish Soccer, then you would have the county rivalries which is something that has been built into the Irish sporting psyche. It goes on from there, even if your county is not that successful, you could have discovered a player in that county who ends up transferring to one of the bigger clubs/counties, that will draw interest from people also.

While I mentioned a county by county league, I was not saying a total GAA package, but one that would include transfers and all the other stuff which is part of league soccer.

If you look at the American model, the MLS has only one team per city and its growing with more cities looking to get a team in the league, the NFL has two teams in New York but not in any other city. The NBA has two Los Angeles teams. Its a great system and it works because of a draft system and a salary cap in some cases.

Theres some good points in there, thats for sure. But it seems to deflect from the fact, that most of us have completely different tastes in everything than we did when we were young. Just because we were brainwashed when we were little by the Rupert Murdoch propoganda machine, doesn't mean we have to stick by it. And I amn't saying ditch the Premiership and treat it as the enemy, but we're all old enough now to understand the difference between the Sky fantasy and the reality of supporting a club. And both are nice.

All this Level 8 football fan sarcasm aside, real supporters do attend football games, and I don't consider it condescending to say that. Fans of the theatre would go to the theatre to watch whatever it is they enjoy, not watch a BBC recording of one of those events. It is all about culture. All that has happened in the last 46 years is that there have been more avenues available for Irish people to watch Premiership football. And I don't think anyone is debating here that the Premiership clubs and the league itself are better run businesses. But football fans don't support businesses, they don't support individual players, the amount of them that will come and go over the time, some will be rubbish, some won't, same with managers.

SectionF

eagle eye wrote: »

How can you expect someone in Leitrim to care about a Dublin vs Dubln soccer match or Dublin vs Cork soccer match when its never going to affect he/she as they have no team in their area who will ever play those teams.

To be honest, I wouldn't expect them to, unless they really loved the game.

But why do people feel the need to bring up exceptional cases like Leitrim or Mayo? If those places alone shunned live football, and everyone else in Ireland supported it, Irish football wouldn't have a problem.

Zebra3

Eagle Eye, you make some valid points however despite there being no LoI club in certain counties, those counties do not contain any English Premiership sides either.

The point above about fans of theathre actually watching it live as opposed to on tv is I think very valid. Nothing compares to being at a game and in the crowd feeling every tackle and getting behind your team. I think going to a handful of games a season and watching the rest in the pub as a very poor substitute, but if thats what people want, it's up to them, but please don't deface our national flag with the names of foreign teams (I don't agree with fans of LoI clubs doing it either), it doesn't make them any more Irish. It's simply embarrassing.

And I'm sure those that travel over to England on a very regular basis (one Spurs fan on here in particular does) will know that the joy of success is also relative to the lows and what you put into it. Winning a trophy is such a better feeling when you've been through countless last minute defeats on away trips to the other end of the country. Getting back on the bus for a 3 or 4 hour drive home and the initial silence (or ranting about the f&*%ing ref!) before a can is opened and the spirits pick up again and thoughts turn to the next game..................A million times better than changing channel.....

And yes, LoI clubs only have themsleves to blame. They had great crowds and didn't respond to the changes in society......

Can't wait for 6 March.....Cobh away anyone? :pac:

DSB

Zebra3 wrote: »

Eagle Eye, you make some valid points however despite there being no LoI club in certain counties, those counties do not contain any English Premiership sides either.

The point above about fans of theathre actually watching it live as opposed to on tv is I think very valid. Nothing compares to being at a game and in the crowd feeling every tackle and getting behind your team. I think going to a handful of games a season and watching the rest in the pub as a very poor substitute, but if thats what people want, it's up to them, but please don't deface our national flag with the names of foreign teams (I don't agree with fans of LoI clubs doing it either), it doesn't make them any more Irish. It's simply embarrassing.

And I'm sure those that travel over to England on a very regular basis (one Spurs fan on here in particular does) will know that the joy of success is also relative to the lows and what you put into it. Winning a trophy is such a better feeling when you've been through countless last minute defeats on away trips to the other end of the country. Getting back on the bus for a 3 or 4 hour drive home and the initial silence (or ranting about the f&*%ing ref!) before a can is opened and the spirits pick up again and thoughts turn to the next game..................A million times better than changing channel.....

And yes, LoI clubs only have themsleves to blame. They had great crowds and didn't respond to the changes in society......

Can't wait for 6 March.....Cobh away anyone? :pac:

Cobh play their home games on a Saturday;) Limerick at home please:)

bohsman

eagle eye wrote: »

How can you expect someone in Leitrim to care about a Dublin vs Dubln soccer match or Dublin vs Cork soccer match when its never going to affect he/she as they have no team in their area who will ever play those teams. Thats why I posted the idea of a county by county league.

How can you expect someone in Leitrim to care about a London v London soccer match or London v Manchester match when its never going to affect he/she as they have no team in their area who will ever play those teams.

I have similarly argued that England cant sustain 92 professional clubs and should also go with one club per city. 16 or so clubs in and around London is far too many.

Zebra3

Tongue in cheek I assume.

Dublin and London can sustain their current number of clubs cos if they couldn't, they, eh, wouldn't exist.

gimmick

Is someone trying to compare the populations of Dublin and London with regard to football gates? If they are, please stop. Right now, as the argument is so flawed I am not sure where to start.

Gavin "shels"

Zebra3 wrote: »

Can't wait for 6 March.....Cobh away anyone? :pac:

March 7th and I'm there.:)

kerash

SectionF wrote: »

This keeps on coming up. But I can see no one, or at most very few, suggesting on this forum that it is somehow not legitimate to support an English team.
The problem is not supporting an Irish one. They are not mutually exclusive.

I thought you were suggesting that with your suggestive threads re LoI?
/checks opening post

he hard-won recognition from the sport's Irish governing body settles at last the long-running and sometimes heated dispute among boards.ie posters as to who is the 'most football' -- dedicated, match-going fans on the one hand, or barstooling Barclays Premiership dilettantes on the other.

^that means what exactly?
I brought that up because I detest any such suggestion so I hope that is the case.

On that note, I wonder what made you name this thread - LoI supporters are real fans...?;)

Now the problem - not supporting an Irish soccer team, is that more a question than a problem - Why not?
But then that's not the topic of this thread, is it?

SectionF

kerash wrote: »

I thought you were suggesting that with your suggestive threads re LoI?
/checks opening post
^that means what exactly?
I brought that up because I detest any such suggestion so I hope that is the case.

On that note, I wonder what made you name this thread - LoI supporters are real fans...?;)

Now the problem - not supporting an Irish soccer team, is that more a question than a problem - Why not?
But then that's not the topic of this thread, is it?

Suggestive threads? I'm really not sure what you mean. I try to be as clear and explicit in my posts as I can.

The thread is so named because of the choice of words of the sport's governing body. I think the topic of the thread most certainly is supporting an Irish team v. not supporting an Irish team.

Whether you spend your TV time in EPL mode (as I often do and I'm sure all but the most diehard LoI fans do), doesn't necessarily mean you have to rule out supporting at team in real life. But many, including a lot of pro-EPL posters to this thread, interpret it that way and get offended and become ultra-defensive about it when the question of going to actual games in your country's own league is brought up.

And that is why we get lots of excuses about the standard not being the same, the FAI being eejits, the league being a shambles, and there being no LoI club in Leitrim.

kerash

SectionF wrote: »

The thread is so named because of the choice of words of the sport's governing body. I think the topic of the thread most certainly is supporting an Irish team v. not supporting an Irish team.

Okay.
And what about whether the FAI's new slogan is appropriate or not? Do we know what that slogan is supposed to mean? Do we care?

Whether you spend your TV time in EPL mode (as I often do and I'm sure all but the most diehard LoI fans do), doesn't necessarily mean you have to rule out supporting at team in real life. But many, including a lot of pro-EPL posters to this thread, interpret it that way and get offended and become ultra-defensive about it when the question of going to actual games in your country's own league is brought up.

Yes.
Do people rule out supporting a LoI team because they support an EPL team?
Or, you're saying many EPL supporters think LoI fans think they must not?

And that is why we get lots of excuses about the standard not being the same, the FAI being eejits, the league being a shambles, and there being no LoI club in Leitrim

.
Well the standard isnt the same, the fai are eejits and the league is quite the shambles. I wouldnt worry about Leitrim:pac:

I preferred this thread when I didnt take it seriously.

SectionF

I think you're arguing in circles here. Have you read the thread?