Did you vote for Fianna Fail and if so why

jimi_t

dresden8 wrote: »

A laissez faire system, like we had in the famine?

Perhaps you should read some Dickens as well to see how employers treat their employees when unfettered by government.

Funnily enough, this is the closest we've gotten in 5 pages to the exercising of Godwin's Law. Well done.

(Also, if someone could please explain to me how Bertie and FF could possibly have any shred of credibility left after the events of the last 2 years I'm all ears)

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In the next election I am 80% sure that I will still vote for FF

gurramok wrote: »

Why would you vote FF?

Is it an excuse of a bad opposition or you think FF are strongest to get through the recession or is it a case you still believe all is hunky-dory in Ireland?

I'll read the manifestos, listen to the debates etc when the time comes so my vote is still very much 'out there' for any of the parties to get. At this moment I believe it is most likely to go to FF.

My main reason is that rightly or wrongly I believe there will be enough economically sound people in a FF government (The PD wing of the party if you want) to make them the best of the alternatives we have.
The main alternative is a FG/Labour coalition and I don't like the politics or utterances of anyone in the Labour Party. I basically agree with the general ideas and methodologies that both FF and FG put forward, very similar parties.

I'm not canvassing or trying to convince anyone else to vote with me by the way, just answering the question

nesf

I voted FF/FG. My other options were a bunch of crazed left wing socialist types and a Labour TD who listed the price of ****ing concert tickets as one of her top three concerns. It really was a case of picking the least bad option (from my right of centre economic perspective) rather than any real faith in either FF or FG. Yeah, it is a case of "well the other lads are worse" but politics is a bitch and rarely will you ever get to vote for a candidate/party that you totally agree with.


If FG and FF merged and we could get down to centre-right vs centre left debate on the major issues I'd be a very happy man. I'd prefer a substantially further to the right economic party but there isn't really a constituency for one in this country so I'll settle for the least worst alternative.

Permabear

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the_syco

FF, as there's no one else to vote for. The choices were either FF, or FG, but FG only ever said whatever FF did was wrong. They never had ideas, just how to fix FF's f**kups.

FF go for it, f**k up, FG are there waiting with a plan that would''ve worked.. it's a pity they only seemed to have these plans AFTER FF does their thing.

Permabear

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silverharp

Moojuice wrote: »

We have seen the result of rampant capitalism and free-market ideology. Granted its not the minimalist state espoused by some but it was/is a taster and it led to ruin and destruction except for a few elites who always profit from the misery of others. I shudder to think what state the world would be in if there was any minimalist state. We are in thsi mess because there was no oversight or regulation, a key element of free-market thinking. It doesn't work. The neo-cons tried it and believed in it and they have been proven wrong beyond a doubt.

this is a dangerous and false interpretation of events. it is dangerous as it lets the gov. off the hook and gives them the opportunity to take even more control. And its false because in Irelands case the tax system, bad planning and gov policy to pump the boom magnified the problem and more globally, the Fed policy of backstopping the system and pumping credit created this problem. We are seeing the result of a central planning failure and the solutions offered are in terms of restarting the same process again, grab a seat get the popcorn out and watch that car crash, I am.
You also have to remember that regulators get corrupted by the big players for instance organisations like the SEC. hmm maybe we need more regulators to regulate the regulators:pac:

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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It's not about them being capable or not. I even hear my well-off friends putting off visits to the doctor because of the cost. The point is with free primary health care, more illnesses are picked up sooner and the final cost to the taxpayer is less. This is why GP vists are free in the UK

donegalfella wrote: »

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Firstly, I don't think the problem is only in relation to non-primary health care. You're stating this because it suits your argument. As mentioned above, free primary health care can prevent many of these expensive surgeries and treatments from ever being neede because they are caught early on.

But yes, I do believe in social welfare and I do think it's right that the state steps in and provides for its citizens when they don't have the means to themselves.

donegalfella wrote: »

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The US is the closest we have to this utopian free market you speak of. Really, I don't think anyone believes in having complete unfettered capitalism.

Alan Greenspan was a total devotee to minimal intervention. You stating the few times that he did intervene doesn't negate that fact. You're actually looking for zero intervention?

El Stuntman

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'll read the manifestos, listen to the debates etc when the time comes so my vote is still very much 'out there' for any of the parties to get. At this moment I believe it is most likely to go to FF.

My main reason is that rightly or wrongly I believe there will be enough economically sound people in a FF government (The PD wing of the party if you want) to make them the best of the alternatives we have.

:eek:

like McCreevy, Bertie, Cowen and Lenihan (actually I feel a little bit sorry for him as he's inherited the sh!t but he's clearly drowning) you mean?

if they're economically sound, I'd hate to see your definition of unsound. Seriously they are economic illiterates who inflated the bubble for all they were worth and it is they who have put this country into the awful place it now finds itself.

'economically sound'. Jesus wept...

reilig

I voted FF because there is no other credible party out there. How could I be expected to vote FG, Labour or SF when they can not or have not come up with any credible policy in the last 5 years. All I hear from them is criticism.
If there was a credible Independent candidate in my area, I would vote for him/her. I don't vote for a political party, I vote for the person that i feel will do the most for me.

Berti Vogts

reilig wrote: »

I voted FF because there is no other credible party out there. How could I be expected to vote FG, Labour or SF when they can not or have not come up with any credible policy in the last 5 years. All I hear from them is criticism.
If there was a credible Independent candidate in my area, I would vote for him/her. I don't vote for a political party, I vote for the person that i feel will do the most for me.

What do you expect when they're in opposition Reilig? There's plenty to criticise you know.

As a matter of interest, were/are your parents FF voters?

jmayo

Badabing wrote: »

I voted Fianna Fail 1 and 2 in Dublin South west and i gave Rabbite 3, i could never and will never vote Fine Gael for a couple of reasons, i disagree on the majority of their polices and they harly ever give constructive critisims when on the Telly or radio it's all badger bating.

And in 2002 Brian Hayes was very rude to me and my mother in 2002 at election time looking for votes i will never ever vote for him and the like.

So continue to vote for a bunch of incompetent chancers, who will sell your life and the lives of your kids down the drain, so that their developer friends get to fly helicopters around.
IMHO as someone that helped elect the incompetents I think you deserve being treated rudely

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'll read the manifestos, listen to the debates etc when the time comes so my vote is still very much 'out there' for any of the parties to get. At this moment I believe it is most likely to go to FF.

My main reason is that rightly or wrongly I believe there will be enough economically sound people in a FF government (The PD wing of the party if you want) to make them the best of the alternatives we have.
The main alternative is a FG/Labour coalition and I don't like the politics or utterances of anyone in the Labour Party. I basically agree with the general ideas and methodologies that both FF and FG put forward, very similar parties.

I'm not canvassing or trying to convince anyone else to vote with me by the way, just answering the question

I guess some of these economically minded people would include Flynn who is very good when it comes to her own pocket.
If you can't see they are driving the country into the ground then ... ah forget it you will probably vote for them no matter what :rolleyes:

the_syco wrote: »

FF, as there's no one else to vote for. The choices were either FF, or FG, but FG only ever said whatever FF did was wrong. They never had ideas, just how to fix FF's f**kups.

FF go for it, f**k up, FG are there waiting with a plan that would''ve worked.. it's a pity they only seemed to have these plans AFTER FF does their thing.

You can say that again, FF definetly do go for it :rolleyes:
Maybe FG only get to fix FF f****ups, becuase people like you only vote for them after FF have royally shafted you ?

BTW it is easier for governmnet party to make proposals, they have all the information. It is the job of opposition to point out where government is going wrong in their opinions.
But of course FF could do no wrong while the gravy train kept running :rolleyes:

reilig wrote: »

I voted FF because there is no other credible party out there. How could I be expected to vote FG, Labour or SF when they can not or have not come up with any credible policy in the last 5 years. All I hear from them is criticism.
If there was a credible Independent candidate in my area, I would vote for him/her. I don't vote for a political party, I vote for the person that i feel will do the most for me.

Only credible party, led by an ever so credible leader who couldn't even explain his own financial transactions while minister for finance :rolleyes:
You are kidding ?


I know I will get flak for this but there are a lot of people who I know definetly feel the same.
I do hope that all those that voted FF because they thought they were the best party (for wonderful gravy train, sorry celtic tiger) get to visit a dole office and then they can remember for the rest of their lives how wonderful FF were.
The ones that voted FF because they wanted PDs back in, well I hope they get to see the public health service up close and personal.

PS I have no respect for FF voters, because I believe they vote for candidates that belong to a party whose leadership (and top representatives) have absolutely no respect for me or indeed the state.
Look at the list and marvel: Ahern, Haughey, Flynn snr, Flynn jnr, Lawlor, Burke and Stroke Fahy.
What a collection of chancers who in most developed countries would be unemployed or in jail.

How anyone can vote for a party that tolerates theives, tax cheats, corruption, liars and members that gravely insult (ala bertie's sucicide statement) is beyond me.

Irlbo

I voted Tony Gregory(ind) and Mary Lou MacDonald(Sinn Fein),Dublin Central is a beacon for hope because its constiuents are willing to support those outside the norm of FF and FG,Berite being the exception

El Stuntman

jmayo wrote: »

So continue to vote for a bunch of incompetent chancers, who will sell your life and the lives of your kids down the drain, so that their developer friends get to fly helicopters around.
IMHO as someone that helped elect the incompetents I think you deserve being treated rudely

I guess some of these economically minded people would include Flynn who is very good when it comes to her own pocket.
If you can't see they are driving the country into the ground then ... ah forget it you will probably vote for them no matter what :rolleyes:

You can say that again, FF definetly do go for it :rolleyes:
Maybe FG only get to fix FF f****ups, becuase people like you only vote for them after FF have royally shafted you ?

BTW it is easier for governmnet party to make proposals, they have all the information. It is the job of opposition to point out where government is going wrong in their opinions.
But of course FF could do no wrong while the gravy train kept running :rolleyes:

Only credible party, led by an ever so credible leader who couldn't even explain his own financial transactions while minister for finance :rolleyes:
You are kidding ?

I know I will get flak for this but there are a lot of people who I know definetly feel the same.
I do hope that all those that voted FF because they thought they were the best party (for wonderful gravy train, sorry celtic tiger) get to visit a dole office and then they can remember for the rest of their lives how wonderful FF were.
The ones that voted FF because they wanted PDs back in, well I hope they get to see the public health service up close and personal.

PS I have no respect for FF voters, because I believe they vote for candidates that belong to a party whose leadership (and top representatives) have absolutely no respect for me or indeed the state.
Look at the list and marvel: Ahern, Haughey, Flynn snr, Flynn jnr, Lawlor, Burke and Stroke Fahy.
What a collection of chancers who in most developed countries would be unemployed or in jail.

How anyone can vote for a party that tolerates theives, tax cheats, corruption, liars and members that gravely insult (ala bertie's sucicide statement) is beyond me.

jmayo, I quite enjoyed this rant and it's similar to many that I have made myself! I fully agree with you when it comes to the venality of FF.

however, politicians can only work with the electorate they're given and there is a clear perception abroad that 'de other crowd would be worser!'. Despite all evidence that Fianna Fail are neither (a) competent or (b) honest, these people continue to vote this bankrupt, failed political party back into power.

This is not a FF problem (it works in their favour) - it's an Opposition problem.

If the Opposition (and here I mean FG) don't have the guts to differentiate themselves fully from FF by proposing radical strategies for the good of the nation, then they don't deserve to get elected.

Or maybe we need a whole new alternative?

ArmaniJeanss

El Stuntman wrote: »

jmayo, I quite enjoyed this rant and it's similar to many that I have made myself! I fully agree with you when it comes to the venality of FF.

Actually his rant was very sad and pathetic, anyone who wishes job loss and ill-heath on strangers on a bulletin board is indecent. Your rants at least manage not to get personal

El Stuntman

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Actually his rant was very sad and pathetic, anyone who wishes job loss and ill-heath on strangers on a bulletin board is indecent. Your rants at least manage not to get personal

my experiences at the poker table have taught me that when you make a rant personal, you get punched in the face :pac:

what about the people who are directly responsible for causing massive job losses, systematic corruption and generational impoverishment? the least we can do is not vote for them surely? would you vote for FF in a GE tomorrow?

ArmaniJeanss

El Stuntman wrote: »

would you vote for FF in a GE tomorrow?

If FG could get an overall majority I would vote for them.
If an FG coalition with FF was on the cards then I would vote FG.

So long as FGs prospective coalition partner is Labour then I won't vote for them as I believe Labour will be a lot worse. I'm in Dublin West and i've heard first hand the Labour Partys Finance Spokeperson Joan Bruton - She makes Lenihan seem like Warren Buffet. She is utterly clueless (even in opposition which is a neat trick really) and is supposedly one of the bright young things of that party.

I'm a capitalist, and Labours policies and stances on various issues seem ludicrous to me.

So its an anti-Labour / pro-capitalist vote, and due to the demise of the PDs
its quite probable that my vote will still go to FF.
I'm not particularly proud of this, just stating the way it is

El Stuntman

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If FG could get an overall majority I would vote for them.
If an FG coalition with FF was on the cards then I would vote FG.

So long as FGs prospective coalition partner is Labour then I won't vote for them as I believe Labour will be a lot worse. I'm in Dublin West and i've heard first hand the Labour Partys Finance Spokeperson Joan Bruton - She makes Lenihan seem like Warren Buffet. She is utterly clueless (even in opposition which is a neat trick really) and is supposedly one of the bright young things of that party.

I'm a capitalist, and Labours policies and stances on various issues seem ludicrous to me.

So its an anti-Labour / pro-capitalist vote, and due to the demise of the PDs
its quite probable that my vote will still go to FF.
I'm not particularly proud of this, just stating the way it is

wow, so you reject all alternatives as unsuitable?

I don't buy your argument on Labour either, they were quite good during the rainbow coalition and most objective observers would accept that Quinn was a very competent Finance Minister (much better than any of the gombeens that followed him).

By the same token, did you vote for the Greens when you voted FF?

ArmaniJeanss

El Stuntman wrote: »

wow, so you reject all alternatives as unsuitable?

Not at all, I'd be happy with any combinations of centre-right parties. Tell me who I should be voting for. I'm a Reaganite, NuLabour-Blairite, Sarkozyite kind of guy, who should get my vote?

By the same token, did you vote for the Greens when you voted FF?[/QUOTE]
I'd tolerate the Greens as a minor coalition partner - not hugely a fan of their policies though - I'm in the Crichton/Clarkson camp when it comes to global warming ("It may not be happening, even if it happening it may not be man-made, even if it is happening and it is man-made we are better off adapting to it than bankrupting ourselves trying to fight it").

El Stuntman

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not at all, I'd be happy with any combinations of centre-right parties. Tell me who I should be voting for. I'm a Reaganite, NuLabour-Blairite, Sarkozyite kind of guy, who should get my vote?

no political party here in Ireland as currently constituted fits that bill!

tbh you sound dangerously schizophrenic and should probably seek urgent medical advice

ArmaniJeanss

El Stuntman wrote: »

no political party here in Ireland as currently constituted fits that bill!

Thought not.

El Stuntman wrote: »

tbh you sound dangerously schizophrenic and should probably seek urgent medical advice

I know, its the sort of crazy stuff that you never associate with someone after you've discussed a few hand histories on a poker forum :pac:

reilig

Possibilities wrote: »

What do you expect when they're in opposition Reilig? There's plenty to criticise you know.

As a matter of interest, were/are your parents FF voters?

No, like me, my parents would vote for an individual rather than a party. In teh past they have voted for FF, FG and Labour Candidates. In the last general election, South County Leitrim had 1 FF candidate and no FG Candidates. It also had 1 SF and 1 Green Candidate. If we wanted a TD to represent County Leitrim, (rather than a TD from Roscommon for the South Leitrim/North Roscommon Constituency), we had to vote for FF, SF or Green.

In my opinion, the SF and Green candidates were not credible (and this was reflected in the number of votes that they got). I felt it was important that we had a Leitrim TD rather than a Roscommon TD representing Leitrim (His priority would have to be Roscommon). Unfortunately, we were unable to elect a TD in the county and now we are without representation in the Dail. North Leitrim has no TD either. This leaves Leitrim as the only county with no Rep in the Dail.

I have no interest in political parties. Older generations always voted for a Party - even if they didn't like the candidate. Nowadays, more and more people choose who they want to vote for - basing their decision on the credability/work ethic/likeability of the candidate rather than the party.

jmayo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Actually his rant was very sad and pathetic, anyone who wishes job loss and ill-heath on strangers on a bulletin board is indecent. Your rants at least manage not to get personal

Yes it may be sad and pathetic to you, but the idiots that voted in the joke of ff, even though we knew they were bunch of chancers to me don't deserve anything.
Their votes may have sent this country back 30 years and their decisions to vote for ff will cost us all dear.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not at all, I'd be happy with any combinations of centre-right parties. Tell me who I should be voting for. I'm a Reaganite, NuLabour-Blairite, Sarkozyite kind of guy, who should get my vote?

Sorry we don't have a war mongering sell out running a party :rolleyes:

El Stuntman wrote: »

no political party here in Ireland as currently constituted fits that bill!

tbh you sound dangerously schizophrenic and should probably seek urgent medical advice

+1

reilig wrote: »

No, like me, my parents would vote for an individual rather than a party. In teh past they have voted for FF, FG and Labour Candidates. In the last general election, South County Leitrim had 1 FF candidate and no FG Candidates. It also had 1 SF and 1 Green Candidate. If we wanted a TD to represent County Leitrim, (rather than a TD from Roscommon for the South Leitrim/North Roscommon Constituency), we had to vote for FF, SF or Green.

In my opinion, the SF and Green candidates were not credible (and this was reflected in the number of votes that they got). I felt it was important that we had a Leitrim TD rather than a Roscommon TD representing Leitrim (His priority would have to be Roscommon). Unfortunately, we were unable to elect a TD in the county and now we are without representation in the Dail. North Leitrim has no TD either. This leaves Leitrim as the only county with no Rep in the Dail.

I have no interest in political parties. Older generations always voted for a Party - even if they didn't like the candidate. Nowadays, more and more people choose who they want to vote for - basing their decision on the credability/work ethic/likeability of the candidate rather than the party.

Ah Leitrim the home of another FF politican, Mr Ellis, whose family's company had a few questions to answer :rolleyes:
Funny how his family business (Stanlow Trading) only paid famers that were voters in his constituency and left lots of others (80 odd I believe) around Connaught strapped for cash :rolleyes:
And the poor pet is only in the Seanad now thanks to bertie

The FF party have done great for Leitrim, what with all the Section 23s dotted around the small villages. Very sustainable development :rolleyes:
BTW anybody living in those nice new estates in Dromod yet, or are they only for Dublin landlords to visit few times a year and use as tax rightoffs ?

Permabear

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jaqian

Zionist wrote: »

I am curious to see the opinions of people here who have voted for Fianna Fail and why ?

Who else was there?

I don't trust Enda Kenny and Labour might as well not exist for all you hear from them.

I'd like to see some of the unions come together (SIPTU, IMPACT & CPSU) come together and form a new party.

Failing that, any chance we can get Obama over here to sort out this mess?

dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

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You're right of course.

Children working in the mines and factories makes much better economic sense.

Permabear

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irish_bob

reilig wrote: »

No, like me, my parents would vote for an individual rather than a party. In teh past they have voted for FF, FG and Labour Candidates. In the last general election, South County Leitrim had 1 FF candidate and no FG Candidates. It also had 1 SF and 1 Green Candidate. If we wanted a TD to represent County Leitrim, (rather than a TD from Roscommon for the South Leitrim/North Roscommon Constituency), we had to vote for FF, SF or Green.

In my opinion, the SF and Green candidates were not credible (and this was reflected in the number of votes that they got). I felt it was important that we had a Leitrim TD rather than a Roscommon TD representing Leitrim (His priority would have to be Roscommon). Unfortunately, we were unable to elect a TD in the county and now we are without representation in the Dail. North Leitrim has no TD either. This leaves Leitrim as the only county with no Rep in the Dail.

I have no interest in political parties. Older generations always voted for a Party - even if they didn't like the candidate. Nowadays, more and more people choose who they want to vote for - basing their decision on the credability/work ethic/likeability of the candidate rather than the party.

i wish your last paragraph were true but it isnt , the majority of voters still vote based on which party the canditate is representing , as someone said on another thread the other night , in parts of rural ireland ,a donkey running for fianna fail would top the poll ahead of barrack obama running for labour

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

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thier is no competition among private practice gp,s because its a cartel , if i lived in leixlip and wasnt happy with my gp and decided i wanted to visit a gp who used to work in the local surgery in leixlip but who six moths ago left to set up his own practice in maynooth , i couldnt just drive to maynooth because the doctor who used to work in my local practice wouldnt see me , he would have a cosy unwritten arangement with his previous collegue in leixlip that he wouldnt take any of his patients with him , trust me , thier is no bigger clique in irish society than that of doctors , competition does not exist

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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Do you know how long doctors have to train and study before they can become a GP? I have a friend who has another two years to go before she's finished and by that stage she will be close to 29. Meanwhile, I will have had a good 7 years of decent income. Add in the cost of professional indemnity, etc..

Anyway, this is a moot point because in my plan, it's free

donegalfella wrote: »

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No need to apologise.

I think you're gettin close to putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that people only need expensive treatments etc because they delay GP visits. But the amount of expensive treatments required definitely goes down when preventative medicine is used - hence the name.

donegalfella wrote: »

How do you respond to the argument that such a stance on the state's behalf will only produce moral hazard?

I reject it - as noted in the thread about welfare, people seem to be under the misconception that as soon as people get some help, they turn into lazy criminals.

donegalfella wrote: »

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See this is where you're falling down: financial bubbles are a symptom of unregulated markets!! The bubble was created by you, me, herd mentality, testosterone, loose lending practices - those are things that you want to give free reign to.

donegalfella wrote: »

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LOL, where to start? Do you not understand that Smith's idealistic free market system is just that - idealistic? Perfect information and people only acting in self-interest are myths: they don't exist.

Give me one example of where zero state intervention in the economy has been successful.