This "Social Partnership" Rubbish

Rabidlamb

This union appeasing model only worked during the good years.
Would you like a 6% increase for doing nowt extra, "yes please, see you again in 6 months".
All this latest posturing by the unions makes me sick.
A real leader would tell it to them straight.
A real leader would make unilateral cuts.
If you want to strike then good, we don't have to pay you when you're striking.
Take your chances in the private sector if you don't like your terms.

What percentage of workers are actually members of unions anyway.
This government seems to encourage bad news so as to legitimize their position.
10% off for starters then see you in 6 months.
How's that partner.

I voted FF in the last election & my missus is in the public sector.

mike65

Tis ironic that "social(ist) partnership" originated in 1987 then. When we hadn't two beans to rub together.

It was a curse during the good times as it pumped up the public sector esp the wage bill with the flipping benchmarking scam and now its still got to be paid for.

sink

It fulfilled it's raison d'être in the late 80's by dramatically reducing the number of strikes by the labour unions. During the boom years it was superfluous to the needs of the public sector and it's employees. It was like putting the country on xanax to calm anxiety but we kept it for too long and now we've developed an addiction that will be painful to break.

OhNoYouDidn't

So people want to add industrial unrest into the current mix? :rolleyes:

Social Partnership fulfilled its primary functions in reducing strikes to essentially none, protecting lower paid workers and bringing public sector earnings up to a liveable wage.

Now in a fit of pique because 'the country cant afford it' (TM, Independent News and Media) you want to go back to indivdual bargaining across the public and sections of the private sector? And that will be better how exactly?

Try thinking through the consequences of these calls to arms gents.

Rabidlamb

What are the estimated cuts going to be ?.

Do the Unions have to go back & get approval from their members ?.

How long is all this going to take ?.

Nero fiddled etc etc . . .

OhNoYouDidn't

Rabidlamb wrote: »

What are the estimated cuts going to be ?.

Do the Unions have to go back & get approval from their members ?.

How long is all this going to take ?.

Nero fiddled etc etc . . .

Its not the unions fault - if Cowen has cuts in mind, let him propose them. The unions have indicated a willingness to defer promised payrises.

But the irony is that if there was no partnership, his job of getting public sector paycuts would be infinitely more difficult as he would have to negotiate with dozens of bodies and unions, rather than one group.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Now in a fit of pique because 'the country cant afford it' (TM, Independent News and Media)

You think the country can?

hobochris

what pisses me off is that all these people were happy with benchmarking when times were good but now, when cuts are NEEDED they throw a hissy fit and threaten to strike. what ever happened to to take the good with the bad?

From what i can see the idea of cutting public sector wages is so that the private sector can follow, I.e. company bosses can cut staff wages(justifying it against public sector wages) and reduce prices. So in turn everything becomes cheaper and we become competitive again as a country. but since the government doesn't have the balls to not take **** from the unions this will be a slow and un-productive process during which the country will suffer.

Personally I think that the cuts need to be made across the board in one sweep; cut public sector pay, cut private sector pay, cut prices of goods and services, weather we like it or not to get out of this we're all going to have to take a hit.

K-9

Yep, happy to take Benchmarking when times were good, now when jobs are being lost and hours cut, they don't want to hear of pay cuts.

Anybody for another rounds of Benchmarking?

OhNoYouDidn't

hobochris wrote: »

what pisses me off is that all these people were happy with benchmarking when times were good but now, when cuts are NEEDED they throw a hissy fit and threaten to strike. what ever happened to to take the good with the bad?.

Did they? Did they really? Are you sure you didn't dream that? Because no-one has approached the unions with anything to throw a hissy fit about.

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

You think the country can?

No, but I think the public versus private wedge is being artificially contrived.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No, but I think the public versus private wedge is being artificially contrived.

Artificially?

Or maybe Benchmarking created it?

hobochris

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Did they? Did they really? Are you sure you didn't dream that? Because no-one has approached the unions with anything to throw a hissy fit about.

it doesn't need to be put officially to the union for them to voice their planned action against it. example: nurses union.

OhNoYouDidn't

hobochris wrote: »

it doesn't need to be put officially to the union for them to voice their planned action against it. example: nurses union.

source for the nurses union threatning a strike over the hypothetical situation of paycuts?

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

Artificially?

Or maybe Benchmarking created it?

I don't know anyone who wants to see the public sector dragged down with us. Pensions are a different script, but no-one outside of IBEC and the Indo opinion pages are proposing it.

In the real world, this resentment doesn't exist.

Boggle

So people want to add industrial unrest into the current mix?

No, but now that we have such a high minimum wage and given that everybody is free to look for a better job, they should no longer be allowed to strike in the name of greed - and thats all it is as the average wage nationwide is also taking a pummeling.

If its a harassment, working conditions, health and safety, etc issue then fine strike all you like - but waking up one morning and deciding the rest of the country OWES you a deadly living is not on either.

hobochris

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

source for the nurses union threatning a strike over the hypothetical situation of paycuts?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnojeyqlkf/

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't know anyone who wants to see the public sector dragged down with us. Pensions are a different script, but no-one outside of IBEC and the Indo opinion pages are proposing it.

In the real world, this resentment doesn't exist.

Indeed, it's more fear of spending €55 Billion when our income is €35 Billion and wondering were it will lead us.

OhNoYouDidn't

Boggle wrote: »

No, but now that we have such a high minimum wage and given that everybody is free to look for a better job, they should no longer be allowed to strike in the name of greed - and thats all it is as the average wage nationwide is also taking a pummeling.

If its a harassment, working conditions, health and safety, etc issue then fine strike all you like - but waking up one morning and deciding the rest of the country OWES you a deadly living is not on either.

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT STRIKING?

And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

OhNoYouDidn't

hobochris wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnojeyqlkf/

Thats a localised issue with management / the HSE.

Where did the unions threaten a strike over the media chatter about cutting public sector pay?

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

Indeed, it's more fear of spending €55 Billion when our income is €35 Billion and wondering were it will lead us.

Agreed, but I don't know of anyone blaming the public sector for that outside of an IBEC/Indo media spin

Rabidlamb

hobochris wrote: »

Personally I think that the cuts need to be made across the board in one sweep; cut public sector pay, cut private sector pay, cut prices of goods and services, weather we like it or not to get out of this we're all going to have to take a hit.

This I agree on, there should be a day declared in the near future where everyone's pay is docked 10%. Sure mortgages would be more expensive but rates are coming down. All other costs will reduce accordingly over a period of time. If we are still uncompetitive rinse, lather & repeat.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT STRIKING?

And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Agreed, but I don't know of anyone blaming the public sector for that outside of an IBEC/Indo media spin

Agreed, but what paid for the Benchmarking and pay deals that we now can't afford?

The problem is we were so reliant on Property etc. for tax revenue, we are now b**lixed as there is nothing to replace that revenue and there will not be, for the forseeable future.

OhNoYouDidn't

Rabidlamb wrote: »

This I agree on, there should be a day declared in the near future where everyone's pay is docked 10%. Sure mortgages would be more expensive but rates are coming down. All other costs will reduce accordingly over a period of time. If we are still uncompetitive rinse, lather & repeat.

So the wedge between rich and poor becomes even wider.

Why would I bother working hard, innovating and improving processes for an arbitrary pay cut.

You are on la la land of you think the root problems in the Irish economy will be solved by attacking ordinary workers.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT STRIKING?

And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

However, it would be wrong to suggest that the bloated public sector remain untouched during this time of recession. I with you in the conviction that the public sector is getting unfairly treated. However, the private sector has lost countless jobs, and there are more losses to come. Look at the HSE, in an attempt to streamline the organisation, not one public sector worker was laid off or given volunatry retirement/redundancy. Remember, it is the private sector who make money and create wealth, the public sector facilitate the making of money. In 1977 the Government utilised the public sector to create jobs, failing to see how bloating it would adveresely effect a fluid economy.

In terms of the model, I believe it has run its course, and is in desperate need of reform. Since the begiinning of the troubled times, the leading light in SIPTU, Jackie O Conner, has been gleefully dancing on the purported grave of "Reganomics". He has shown no interest in moving forward, only interest in condemning the economically liberal. People like him, with such a balck and white view of society are incapable of partnership. He will be happy to cause difficuly for the government, and push his regressive lefty politics to the fore. I dont see him capable of agreement, and he could be the stumbling block over any talk of public ector cuts

Boggle

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT STRIKING?

Who indeed...

And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

No its not. The public lads got payrises based on incomes generated during a bubble. That bubble has popped and the income is gone. Therefore we cannot afford to mollycoddle any sector of society.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

Let me see who in the public sector had a hand to play in the bubble:
- Politicians
- Councils
- Planners
- Regulator
- Any others??
In fact without such generous(??) policies, it could not have happened.


Who in the private sector had a hand? developers, bankers and estate agents.
(Edit: Makers of brown envelopes also culpable!!)

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So the wedge between rich and poor becomes even wider.

Why would I bother working hard, innovating and improving processes for an arbitrary pay cut.

You are on la la land of you think the root problems in the Irish economy will be solved by attacking ordinary workers.

There is far greater things which can be done besides "attacking the ordinary workers". But wait until the Government try to sell the remaining 190million stake in Aer Lingus, or try to split CIE into competing companies ! Then you will se what the ordinary worker is capable of.

spank_inferno

I work un an unnamed dublin restaraunt.
One night I was waiting on Brian Cowan who was having a meal with his wife. They seemed to take long time reading the menu.
I went over to them to see if they needed assistance or were ready to order.
I noticed Mr Cowan was on a call so I asked his wife if they needed anything.

She smiled and replied that her husband has just read the entire menu to
Jack O'Connor & Turlough O'Sullivan on a conference call and he is waiting
for them to decide what he wants to eat.

None of the above is true

My Point is: Desperate times call for bold leadership
Brian Cowan should have the 'nads to say "from now on X, Y & Z will be payed €xx,xxx per year. Dont like it? Get a job in the private sector."

Remember folks that these people arent "social partners" they are high paid lobbyists & nothing more. They express the views of those that pay them and no one else.

The only organisation that represent all the people of Ireland in social partnership is the government themselves, & as such they should be the only ones making decisions.
(I've no problem with consulting people but this seems like devolution of power to lobby groups!)

K-9

Well said Boggle. Really I can't think anybody can argue with that.

Public Sector workers rightly complain about Developers, Govt. etc. but they were one of the biggest beneficiaries of the taxes generated by stupid policies.

Mr.Micro

However, it would be wrong to suggest that the bloated public sector remain untouched during this time of recession.

In reality this is true IMO, if the public sector workers were employed by private companies they would be fighting for their jobs and not arguing or refusing to take a pay cut of 10%. The public sector is too top heavy especially if services are to be cut. Public sector workers are not as immune as they may feel to the meltdown.

K-9

Mr.Micro wrote: »

In reality this is true IMO, if the public sector workers were employed by private companies they would be fighting for their jobs and not arguing or refusing to take a pay cut of 10%. The public sector is too top heavy especially if services are to be cut. Public sector workers are not as immune as they may feel to the meltdown.

Thought I heard one of the Co. Co's laying off 70 odd workers yesterday.

Unless cuts are enforced, front line services will be drastically affected like the 80's.