This "Social Partnership" Rubbish

Mr.Micro

Seanies32 wrote: »

Thought I heard one of the Co. Co's laying off 70 odd workers yesterday.

Unless cuts are enforced, front line services will be drastically affected like the 80's.

I think you are right there.

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

Unless cuts are enforced, front line services will be drastically affected like the 80's.

Surely that should read "If cuts are enforced...."?

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Surely that should read "If cuts are enforced...."?

Sorry, bit unclear. If pay cuts aren't enforced would be better.

The expenditure cuts will happen one way or the other. We have a choice at the moment in how that will be done.

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't know anyone who wants to see the public sector dragged down with us. Pensions are a different script, but no-one outside of IBEC and the Indo opinion pages are proposing it.

In the real world, this resentment doesn't exist.

Actually in the real world there are a lot of p***ed off people who have watched their pensions go down the tubes, had to take pay cuts or lost their jobs.
All they hear from union leaders, primarily representing public sector workers or ex public sector workers is that they will not take pay cuts, want pay rises and it is all the fault of greedy private sector people.

They appear to have neglected remembering any form of basic arithmetic from primary school i.e. the government do not have enough money to keep the thing going as is.
Ireland is spending more money than we are earning.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

...
And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

No the ordinary worker be they public sector workers or private sector workers did not cause all of this but the private sector workers are baring the total brunt of it.

As I have asked on a few threads ...
WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM ?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Surely that should read "If cuts are enforced...."?

Once again for those hard of hearing and with bad eyesight...
WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM ?

We are not able to devalue our currency.
We cannot borrow since our borrowing is limited by ECB/EU, nobody will lend us the money.
Even if we could borrow the amounts involved, it would be at huge interest rates because we will be seen as a bad risk.

So once again where will the government find the money to continue to keep a public sector going that costs more than the revenues raised by taxes ?
Do we cut the services available to the public ?
For instance do we cut health services to patients ?
Remember more people are now depend on public health than before.

Or maybe we go back to days of 65% tax rates ?

At social partnership talks, the unions represent primarily employees in public sector, those in pretty large old school businesses such as banking, insurance or heavily unionsed ex public sector entities such as Aer Lingus or Eircom.
IBEC do not represent me either, so I am stuck with Biffo and Brian.
Comforting isn't it :rolleyes:

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote: »

Thought I heard one of the Co. Co's laying off 70 odd workers yesterday.

Unless cuts are enforced, front line services will be drastically affected like the 80's.

Kildare Co Co are letting 78 people go.

Partnership is the greatest con ever played on the general public. We have to bail out the banks and we have to keep paying the wages of the over blown public service. It's a fcukin joke. I've written to allmy TDs to express my wish for partnership to be abandoned forever. The government should govern-does anybody really believe the public service will strike? How much sympathy would teachers etc. receive outside the schools from the now unemployed parents? They would be pegged with eggs and rightly so if they striked! Lucky to have secure jobs so they are.

juuge

Who is that twat Jack O'Connor anyway? holding the country to ransom and him on 137grand + 'up the woorkers'

OhNoYouDidn't

juuge wrote: »

Who is that twat Jack O'Connor anyway? holding the country to ransom and him on 137grand + 'up the woorkers'

He is the elected leader of the countries largest union.

Again, I hate to get in the way of the baying mob, but exactly what are SIPTU doing to 'hold the country to ransom'?

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He is the elected leader of the countries largest union.

Again, I hate to get in the way of the baying mob, but exactly what are SIPTU doing to 'hold the country to ransom'?

I would urge you to substitute yourself for any chief executive in any organisation. Then you would see what SIPTU do. I know enough of them who have more trouble with SIPTU than any other Union. They know no alternative forms of action except steeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-RIKE !

They have been the most obstructionist and regressive organisation in Ireland. I blame SIPTU for Bertie's decision to send Willie Walsh from Aer Lingus. Walsh was doing a superb job, and he was a man with a moral responsibility. However, the likes of Claire Daly were so anxious to keep Aer Lingus in state control, so they could continue to hold he organisation at gunpoint.

They have continued to argue for wage increases, even though it was seriously reducing Ireland's competiveness, and have done so regardless of sustainability. This continues to today, and I blame them for artificially inflating wages, and diminishing any good name of management.

Elected or No...O Conner is a tool. He believes in complete state ownership...and has widely criticised the entrance of Ryanair into the aviation market. As I have mentioned, he has been celebrating the purported demise of neo liberalism, rather then coming up with any solutions. He does nothing for Ireland

zootroid

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He is the elected leader of the countries largest union.

Again, I hate to get in the way of the baying mob, but exactly what are SIPTU doing to 'hold the country to ransom'?

Jesus, you make it sound like he's the prime minister of a country. He's not, he is simply a (well) paid member of an organisation that looks after his member's interests, with little regard to anything else.

At the moment Ireland is struggling to get back on it's feet, and needs to borrow to run the every day services the country requires. This money has to come from somewhere. Much has been said about we can't borrow anymore, but why would we want to anyway? We need to get our own house in order, and maybe then the country can return to its former competitive base. I would start by having the public sector pay a contribution to their own pensions, I don't see why the tax payer should foot the bill. And if private sector employees pay PRSI contributions, then there is no reason why public sector employees should be exempt. (I realise that only a percentage are exempt, but you get my point).

NewDubliner

zootroid wrote: »

And if private sector employees pay PRSI contributions, then there is no reason why public sector employees should be exempt. (I realise that only a percentage are exempt, but you get my point).

I think it's only pre-1995 Civil Servants that pay the reduced rate of PRSI (they're not totally exempt). And, their salary scale is less than post-1995 civil servants, because of this.

If you put them on full rate, wouldn't that mean that that they'd then also be entitled to Social Welfare medical, dental, optical and pension benefits and would have to be paid the same as the post 1995 staff?

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

I would urge you to substitute yourself for any chief executive in any organisation. Then you would see what SIPTU do. I know enough of them who have more trouble with SIPTU than any other Union. They know no alternative forms of action except steeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-RIKE !

They have been the most obstructionist and regressive organisation in Ireland. I blame SIPTU for Bertie's decision to send Willie Walsh from Aer Lingus. Walsh was doing a superb job, and he was a man with a moral responsibility. However, the likes of Claire Daly were so anxious to keep Aer Lingus in state control, so they could continue to hold he organisation at gunpoint.

They have continued to argue for wage increases, even though it was seriously reducing Ireland's competiveness, and have done so regardless of sustainability. This continues to today, and I blame them for artificially inflating wages, and diminishing any good name of management.

Elected or No...O Conner is a tool. He believes in complete state ownership...and has widely criticised the entrance of Ryanair into the aviation market. As I have mentioned, he has been celebrating the purported demise of neo liberalism, rather then coming up with any solutions. He does nothing for Ireland

JO'C is a member of the labour party, so save the red scare nonsense. He criticised Ryanairs employment rghts record (imagine that, from a union...), not the idea of Ryanair.

Seems to me that your objection to JO'C and SIPTU is simply that they are effective in getting what they want for their members.

OhNoYouDidn't

NewDubliner wrote: »

I think it's only pre-1995 Civil Servants that pay the reduced rate of PRSI (they're not totally exempt). And, their salary scale is less than post-1995 civil servants, because of this.

If you put them on full rate, wouldn't that mean that that they'd then also be entitled to Social Welfare medical, dental, optical and pension benefits and would have to be paid the same as the post 1995 staff?

.... as I said earlier, heaven forbid they think their reactionary guff through....

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

.... as I said earlier, heaven forbid they think their reactionary guff through....

LOL, Yep, give them pay increases, that is what we need.

Heaven forbid economics would come into it.

Boggle

Seems to me that your objection to JO'C and SIPTU is simply that they are effective in getting what they want for their members.

No, its that the only thing they care about is money and also that they see partnership as a one way street.


I notice you'd no reply to my last post - why would you when your argument can be simplified into:
- when things are good we want more
- when things are bad we want ...errrr... more!!

You never commented on how much more responsibility the public sector must take for the mess we are in also - why would you though??

(PS RTE is a state owned media also and how much hype did they add to the property market? Oh wait, in a FF world, he who pays the piper calls the tune!)

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

JO'C is a member of the labour party, so save the red scare nonsense. He criticised Ryanairs employment rghts record (imagine that, from a union...), not the idea of Ryanair.

Seems to me that your objection to JO'C and SIPTU is simply that they are effective in getting what they want for their members.

I think Unions will have a far harder time getting their demands from now on.

ManFromAtlantis

they are not elecetd by the general public and certainly dont talk for me. they should not be there.

OhNoYouDidn't

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

they are not elecetd by the general public and certainly dont talk for me. they should not be there.

Where is 'there'?

El Stuntman

might be OT but why don't we just 'benchmark' public salaries to an average of the Eurozone's?

I'd quite like to see the numbers on this if anyone can work their way through Eurostat (I can't)

gnxx

This is a very clever idea.

Not a chance of it happening though.

El Stuntman wrote: »

might be OT but why don't we just 'benchmark' public salaries to an average of the Eurozone's?

I'd quite like to see the numbers on this if anyone can work their way through Eurostat (I can't)

OhNoYouDidn't

El Stuntman wrote: »

might be OT but why don't we just 'benchmark' public salaries to an average of the Eurozone's?

I'd quite like to see the numbers on this if anyone can work their way through Eurostat (I can't)

Would you be willing to benchmark private sector pay too?

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Would you be willing to benchmark private sector pay too?

Would be interesting to get the figures on it.

What we really need is a new Benchmarking round.

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

Would be interesting to get the figures on it.

What I mean is some right wing nerd will run the numbers and find that public sector workers get (for the sake of argument 10% ) and be all up in arms while ignoring the fact that the Irish private sector would benchmark higher.

Seanies32 wrote: »

What we really need is a new Benchmarking round.

Probably, but contrary to what you read here, the public sector unions appear to be ameanable to renegotiating.

El Stuntman

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Would you be willing to benchmark private sector pay too?

not sure what your point is but this is already happening if you hadn't noticed - unemployment going up, 4 days weeks, pay cuts, pay freezes, no bonuses etc etc. Massive hit to private sector income.

Just look at the income tax returns for confirmation.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Probably, but contrary to what you read here, the public sector unions appear to be ameanable to renegotiating.

Benchmarking?

OhNoYouDidn't

El Stuntman wrote: »

not sure what your point is but this is already happening if you hadn't noticed - unemployment going up, 4 days weeks, pay cuts, pay freezes, no bonuses etc etc. Massive hit to private sector income.

Just look at the income tax returns for confirmation.

Agreed, but they are still way above EU average. As is inflation.

So matching public sector pay versus a EU median while ignoring the rest of the economy is a futile excercise.

El Stuntman

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What I mean is some right wing nerd will run the numbers and find that public sector workers get (for the sake of argument 10% ) and be all up in arms while ignoring the fact that the Irish private sector would benchmark higher.

Probably, but contrary to what you read here, the public sector unions appear to be ameanable to renegotiating.

you've betrayed your ideological bias already

I suggest you read this, an interesting article propounding some solutions

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

Benchmarking?

Its on the table.

There has been a visceral reaction from the Irish right (who rather perversely are emboldneded by the mess that inevitably stemmed from their policies) towords the public sector unions that has no basis in what is actually happening in the real world.

We need less ideological chest thumping and more practical solutions to get us out of this mess.

OhNoYouDidn't

El Stuntman wrote: »

you've betrayed your ideological bias already

Oh, I let rip on left wing nerds too when needs be. :P

El Stuntman

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Agreed, but they are still way above EU average. As is inflation.

So matching public sector pay versus a EU median while ignoring the rest of the economy is a futile excercise.

incorrect

EU inflation for year ending December 2008 was 1.6%

Irish CPI was 1.1% as at same time

at least try to get your facts right, it makes for a better argument

El Stuntman

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Oh, I let rip on left wing nerds too when needs be. :P

well that seems fair and balanced :pac: