The 'Old' V's 'New' no holds barred debate/arguement thread

seannash

ntlbell wrote: »

They may not be valid they may be wrong just because he's carl cox he can be wrong. but the point i'm trying to make is it's how one would make them. again this is not about Jt's opinions it's how he goes about putting them across in a belittling condescending manner a bit like you pointing out I don't dj or produce in some way to try and discredit my opinion, it's small time and idiotic.

maybe he does, but i'm not going to get into how carl cox does or doesn't make his $$

I know a **** load of mechanics i wouldn't let near my car.

I know a lot of lay man who i would be more than happy to take a look at it for me.

Again you seem to be caught up on his points been valid or not that's not the issue.

so your main issue is how he puts his point across
fine,just like carl cox,you may be wrong also.
i dont find how he says things offensive.you say that he throws his education in peoples faces and puts people down for there lack of intelligence in such matters.i dont think he flaunts his education more explains why his opinion hold more water than the other persons.the other person might still disagree but its not belittling its just backing it up.if your offended by it grow up.
its the internet,you ca just turn your computer off and the problem goes away

ntlbell

seannash wrote: »

so your main issue is how he puts his point across
fine,just like carl cox,you may be wrong also.
i dont find how he says things offensive.you say that he throws his education in peoples faces and puts people down for there lack of intelligence in such matters.i dont think he flaunts his education more explains why his opinion hold more water than the other persons.the other person might still disagree but its not belittling its just backing it up.if your offended by it grow up.
its the internet,you ca just turn your computer off and the problem goes away

I'd love to continue this, but I'm finding it very hard to read your posts I'm not sure why.

jonny68

The G Child wrote: »

In fairness, I'm not calling JT a wanker or anything. I'm just saying that sometimes he can come across as a bit condescending and that it can rub people up the wrong way.

I find that any thread Jonny68 is involved in, JT and Sean regularly go in and bait him. Theres nothing wrong with having an opinion and going against Jonny as he generally is very set in his opinions and always thinks he's right. But I find that his intelligence is always brought into it by JT and used to rubbish his opinion. Not really a fair thing to do. Yes, arguing your point in an educated way is all well and good, but sometimes it comes across a bit belitteling towards Jonny. Everyone is entiltled to their own views.

Just to clarify, I'm not looking to have a dig at jtsuited and certainly not looking for a debate with him , just stating what my opinion is.

Just to reiterate mate, i admit sometimes i can be set in my opinions at times (as can most people) but i NEVER always think im right that is simply not true, as for "my intelligence" i would consider myself an intelligent guy with a broad range of interests.

Jaysus this thread is a farce and im glad i didn't get involved in the petty squabbling.:eek:

BaZmO*

seannash wrote: »

ive never found that.its called honesty.some people dont like it but he doesnt ever post false information.

Ah I dunno, he does tend to come across as very condescending in his posts.

seannash wrote: »

the thread aboout funky house where jtsuited expressed his opinion he backed it up with a very interesting thread about intelligent dance music.myself and a few others were very interested in it and found it pretty insightful.

I never got a chance to reply to that thread but his original idea was that some people can just be more naturally musically intelligent than other people and that you could do a test. It actually sounded quite interesting but the thread he created was more about deconstructing a track. And it showed that rather than having a inherent musical intelligence it just demonstrated a learned technical knowledge of track construction more than anything else. You could argue semantics here but the point is that his initial comments about "musical intelligence" just smacks of arrogance.



The way I see the typical Old Skool v New School thread on here is like this....

Jonny will start a thread about some old skool night or track and then JT will have a snide pop at him, to which Jonny will (rather naively) reply while being wholly offended. The two will exchange insults for a while and then Sean will come in and back up JT regardless. Then Jonny (again really upset) will say he's not playing anymore to the sound of high 5's and reach arounds by JT & Sean.

You're all a bunch of girls!!

jtsuited

Haha can't buy publicity like this.

I'm sure I do come across as condescending and arrogant. I'd be the first to admit that. Whether I'm a wanker or not is wholly irrelevant. This forum is about dance music, not 'who is a wanker and who is not'.

Look I could pretend that Jonny's opinions are as valid as the next person's, but he's shown time and time again that he's living in a parallel universe when it comes to dance music.

I of course see where Bazmo and others are coming from saying I'm arrogant. I'd like to think of it more of an abrasive honesty than anything else, but if you wanna call me a condescending, arrogant, elitist wanker go ahead. It doesn't make my points any less valid.

seannash

BaZmO* wrote: »

Ah I dunno, he does tend to come across as very condescending in his posts.



I never got a chance to reply to that thread but his original idea was that some people can just be more naturally musically intelligent than other people and that you could do a test. It actually sounded quite interesting but the thread he created was more about deconstructing a track. And it showed that rather than having a inherent musical intelligence it just demonstrated a learned technical knowledge of track construction more than anything else. You could argue semantics here but the point is that his initial comments about "musical intelligence" just smacks of arrogance.



The way I see the typical Old Skool v New School thread on here is like this....

Jonny will start a thread about some old skool night or track and then JT will have a snide pop at him, to which Jonny will (rather naively) reply while being wholly offended. The two will exchange insults for a while and then Sean will come in and back up JT regardless. Then Jonny (again really upset) will say he's not playing anymore to the sound of high 5's and reach arounds by JT & Sean.

You're all a bunch of girls!!

believe it or not i do have my own point of view.they do tend to coincide with what jt thinks,especially when johnny is on one of his fresh today as it ever was rants.
but that was a pretty funny post.
just an fyi ive never high fived anyone in my life,firm handshake or nothing:P

jonny68

BaZmO* wrote: »

Ah I dunno, he does tend to come across as very condescending in his posts.



I never got a chance to reply to that thread but his original idea was that some people can just be more naturally musically intelligent than other people and that you could do a test. It actually sounded quite interesting but the thread he created was more about deconstructing a track. And it showed that rather than having a inherent musical intelligence it just demonstrated a learned technical knowledge of track construction more than anything else. You could argue semantics here but the point is that his initial comments about "musical intelligence" just smacks of arrogance.



The way I see the typical Old Skool v New School thread on here is like this....

Jonny will start a thread about some old skool night or track and then JT will have a snide pop at him, to which Jonny will (rather naively) reply while being wholly offended. The two will exchange insults for a while and then Sean will come in and back up JT regardless. Then Jonny (again really upset) will say he's not playing anymore to the sound of high 5's and reach arounds by JT & Sean.

You're all a bunch of girls!!

Mate,

Please don't bring my name into this, i want nothing to do with this thread yet my name keeps cropping up, why do you think i have those 2 people on my ignore list,i really do have better things to do than arguing on a dance music message board with 2 random people who have a hatred for anything to do with old skool dance music, ive had enough, i don't want anything to do with this thread.

Cheers;)

jtsuited

ntlbell wrote: »

Being good at something doesn't give you license to dismiss and belittle people for not sharing your view in anything be it religion,life or music

Oh but it does. A genetics phd is far more qualified to speak about the creation of mankind than a priest. Why? Because he has spent FAR more time, effort and talent on the question and knows infinitely more.

Honestly NTL, do you really think everyone's opinion has equal credibility?

BaZmO*

jtsuited wrote: »

Haha can't buy publicity like this.

I'm sure I do come across as condescending and arrogant. I'd be the first to admit that. Whether I'm a wanker or not is wholly irrelevant. This forum is about dance music, not 'who is a wanker and who is not'.

Look I could pretend that Jonny's opinions are as valid as the next person's, but he's shown time and time again that he's living in a parallel universe when it comes to dance music.

I of course see where Bazmo and others are coming from saying I'm arrogant. I'd like to think of it more of an abrasive honesty than anything else, but if you wanna call me a condescending, arrogant, elitist wanker go ahead. It doesn't make my points any less valid.

Ya condescending, arrogant, elitist wanker! :pac:

jtsuited

jonny68 wrote: »

Mate,

Please don't bring my name into this, i want nothing to do with this thread yet my name keeps cropping up, why do you think i have those 2 people on my ignore list,i really do have better things to do than arguing on a dance music message board with 2 random people who have a hatred for anything to do with old skool dance music, ive had enough, i don't want anything to do with this thread.

Cheers;)

haha i thought I was the only one on your ignore list. disappointed to say the least!

jtsuited

BaZmO* wrote: »

Ya condescending, arrogant, elitist wanker! :pac:

lol:pac::pac::pac:

seannash

jonny68 wrote: »

Mate,

Please don't bring my name into this, i want nothing to do with this thread yet my name keeps cropping up, why do you think i have those 2 people on my ignore list,i really do have better things to do than arguing on a dance music message board with 2 random people who have a hatred for anything to do with old skool dance music, ive had enough, i don't want anything to do with this thread.

Cheers;)

this is the third time youve exclaimed you dont want anything to do with this thread.if you dont want to be involved,dont read,dont post and just stay out of it.
i like that you have me on an ignore list though,very mature mate:D

BaZmO*

jtsuited wrote: »

Honestly NTL, do you really think everyone's opinion has equal credibility?

When it comes to taste it does.

Just because I don't like something and someone else does doesn't mean that I'm right. There's no right or wrong when it comes to taste.

seannash

im off to work
(tags in jtsuited wrestling style)

jtsuited

BaZmO* wrote: »

When it comes to taste it does.

Just because I don't like something and someone else does doesn't mean that I'm right. There's no right or wrong when it comes to taste.

and there's nothing wrong with saying 'I like x, i don't like y, etc.'

But when you say 'x is the best thing ever, sounds as fresh today as it ever did (when anyone with half an ounce of knowledge of music will know it doesn;t), y is a load of crap for ketamine heads, and fans of y are just jealous that they missed the heyday of x', then you're talking rubbish and some people are gonna correct ya on it.

jtsuited

seannash wrote: »

im off to work
(tags in jtsuited wrestling style)

and in I come. GRRRRR

Scubadevils

seannash wrote: »

im off to work
(tags in jtsuited wrestling style)

Haha, well timed

Kinda lost for words myself here! What can one say really...

Ah fck it, I've just put all members on ignore.

jtsuited

Felixdhc wrote: »

Haha, well timed

Kinda lost for words myself here! What can one say really...

Ah fck it, I've just put all members on ignore.

boo. ah come one felix, this'll be all the mayhem and silliness of the past year or so crammed into one thread, where let's face it, we'll call each other names, have a bit of a laugh and then get back to business (whatever that is).

ntlbell

jtsuited wrote: »

Oh but it does. A genetics phd is far more qualified to speak about the creation of mankind than a priest. Why? Because he has spent FAR more time, effort and talent on the question and knows infinitely more.

Honestly NTL, do you really think everyone's opinion has equal credibility?

You're doing what your little butt buddy was doing earlier.

This is not about credibility everyone deserves some form of respect and should be allowed voice their opinion on any given subject without been subjected to and being ridiculed because the person finds them beneath them intellectually.

The PHD in your example is far more qualified to speak about the creation of mankind and is educated to a much higher level than the priest but the point you seem to miss is this doesn't give the PHD the right to talk down to, be a condescending wanker to have no respect for said priest.

You can say your peace and get your point across without belittling people and dismissing their opinion because it doesn't fit in with your view of things.

It's OK, you're young, you'll learn fast. *pat pat*

BaZmO*

jtsuited wrote: »

and there's nothing wrong with saying 'I like x, i don't like y, etc.'

But when you say 'x is the best thing ever, sounds as fresh today as it ever did (when anyone with half an ounce of knowledge of music will know it doesn;t), y is a load of crap for ketamine heads, and fans of y are just jealous that they missed the heyday of x', then you're talking rubbish and some people are gonna correct ya on it.

Ah to be young and to feel the need to challenge every statement that's made!

JT you really need to stop worry about other's opinions. If someone thinks that "x is the best thing ever, sounds as fresh today as it ever did" in their opinion that's the way it is. There's no need to jump up and shouting "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong!!!"

Scubadevils

Actually, I did ask earlier... in jest it may have seemed, but can someone please define 'oldskool'. If we are to argue which is better, who is more intelligent and all that bollix, we may as well define the argument. Shower of fckin w*nkers.

Diggin this thread alright :pac:

jtsuited

ntlbell wrote: »

You're doing what your little butt buddy was doing earlier.

This is not about credibility everyone deserves some form of respect and should be allowed voice their opinion on any given subject without been subjected to and being ridiculed because the person finds them beneath them intellectually.

The PHD in your example is far more qualified to speak about the creation of mankind and is educated to a much higher level than the priest but the point you seem to miss is this doesn't give the PHD the right to talk down to, be a condescending wanker to have no respect for said priest.

Well ya see what the priest will probably do, when he feels out of his depth, will just call the phd a condescending elitist wanker because if the phd is being honest, he will have to remind the priest that he simply is not even qualified to even begin debating the topic with him.

Coincidentally to find examples of this, you only have to look at the Intelligent Design debate in the states. The accusations of condescension, arrogance and elitism flew at the scientific community.


I see your point and there are many others who agree with it (the point about everyone having a right to an opinion that should be respected etc.), but I simply don't agree.

jtsuited

BaZmO* wrote: »

Ah to be young and to feel the need to challenge every statement that's made!

JT you really need to stop worry about other's opinions. If someone thinks that "x is the best thing ever, sounds as fresh today as it ever did" in their opinion that's the way it is. There's no need to jump up and shouting "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong!!!"

ah crap I've been doing this all wrong!!:D

ah yeah i guess given that I was 25 yesterday I'm starting to feel old.

jtsuited

ntlbell wrote: »

You're doing what your little butt buddy was doing earlier.
*

Jesus NTL, more abuse. Relax ffs.

ntlbell

jtsuited wrote: »

Well ya see what the priest will probably do, when he feels out of his depth, will just call the phd a condescending elitist wanker because if the phd is being honest, he will have to remind the priest that he simply is not even qualified to even begin debating the topic with him.

Coincidentally to find examples of this, you only have to look at the Intelligent Design debate in the states. The accusations of condescension, arrogance and elitism flew at the scientific community.


I see your point and there are many others who agree with it (the point about everyone having a right to an opinion that should be respected etc.), but I simply don't agree.

My guess is the PHD wouldn't have to keep reminding the priest he wasn't qualified enough and would debate the topic at hand carefully taken the priests point on board and intelligently destruct each point put before him and come back with a respectful response without having to remind the priest that he's not as intelligent as him (that's usually how adults do it)

I've spent the last number of years in IT security I've spent years studying computer forensics now should a friend of mine starts telling another friend about some bit of for example anti virus software he should be using and I start waving around the fact that in fact he's not qualified enough to be giving this advice that *I'* am and belittle his opinion I'm not going to be left with many friends.

This is not about being afraid to offend someone by telling them the truth it's about having some respect.

As I said, your young a little bit of a retard and you will grow out of it.

jtsuited

ntlbell wrote: »

As I said, your young a little bit of a retard and you will grow out of it.

wow. patronising.
so now i'm a little bit of a retard as opposed to the 'class A moron' i was earlier. I seem to be going up in your estimations.

ntlbell

jtsuited wrote: »

wow. patronising.

It's good that you can spot it anyway.

senan s

Felixdhc wrote: »

Feckin hell, the gloves are off in this here thread!

I reckon a good old punch-up would sort this - oldskoolers vs new skool, 8pm Stephens Green - or maybe somewhere a bit less public? Suggestions for a venue welcomed... No weapons.

the pod next saturday

Scubadevils

senan s wrote: »

the pod next saturday

Yeah good call, its been around a while so has served both new and old. Never been in the place myself though.

senan s

Felixdhc wrote: »

Yeah good call, its been around a while so has served both new and old. Never been in the place myself though.

sure who's playing a "live set" in there???

Scubadevils

jt -

I take it you didn't see this - gave me a bloody good lol

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055469280

Scubadevils

senan s wrote: »

sure who's playing a "live set" in there???

Dunno?

I know, my cousin with a bangin oldskool hard trance set? :pac:

jimi_t

If the last 8 pages haven't been the greatest argument thus far for segregating this forum into two separate sub-forums I don't what is. You've two disparate groups who don't share a common interest (for the most part) making sweeping statements on a weekly basis. These end up in stupid ****ing arguments that make it impossible for people to actually DISCUSS MUSIC by cluttering up the forum.

Why in gods name can we not just get a subforum on a trial basis and let everyone find out how much happier they'll be? I can guarantee you that a lot of new people will join boards migrating from the various other BBS' and everyone will be better off.

btw, pettiest comment award (and there was stiff competition) goes to senan s

Senan S wrote:

Felix wrote:

I reckon a good old punch-up would sort this - oldskoolers vs new skool, 8pm Stephens Green - or maybe somewhere a bit less public? Suggestions for a venue welcomed... No weapons. '

the pod next saturday

senan s

jimi_t wrote: »

If the last 8 pages haven't been the greatest argument thus far for segregating this forum into two separate sub-forums I don't what is. You've two disparate groups who don't share a common interest (for the most part) making sweeping statements on a weekly basis. These end up in stupid ****ing arguments that make it impossible for people to actually DISCUSS MUSIC by cluttering up the forum.

Why in gods name can we not just get a subforum on a trial basis and let everyone find out how much happier they'll be? I can guarantee you that a lot of new people will join boards migrating from the various other BBS' and everyone will be better off.

btw, pettiest comment award (and there was stiff competition) goes to senan s

i'm touched...

Helix

jtsuited wrote: »

Oh but it does. A genetics phd is far more qualified to speak about the creation of mankind than a priest. Why? Because he has spent FAR more time, effort and talent on the question and knows infinitely more.

Honestly NTL, do you really think everyone's opinion has equal credibility?

it doesnt come into it when youre discussing taste

can a cordon bleu chef tell me that tomato IS in fact really really nice, despite the fact that it turns my stomach, and be right?

no, he cant

he can tell me that he enjoys the way the flavours interact on his palate, and he can describe tonnes of different ways to prepare tomato, but no matter what he says, it will still taste absolutely disgusting to me, regardless of the skill used to prepare the dish

The G Child

jonny68 wrote: »

Just to reiterate mate, i admit sometimes i can be set in my opinions at times (as can most people) but i NEVER always think im right that is simply not true, as for "my intelligence" i would consider myself an intelligent guy with a broad range of interests.

Jaysus this thread is a farce and im glad i didn't get involved in the petty squabbling.:eek:

Apologies for this Jonny, I wasn't trying to say your not an intelligent guy, just that JT sometimes uses his intelligence to bellitle you. As for the Always thinking your right comment, that was just meant as a point to show that more often than not, your opinions can be set in stone, and not for turning, just a couple of examples being your love of Old skool and your contempt for Minimal. These are your opinions and you are entitled to them. As is JTsuited, Ntlbell, Sean Nash and everyone else on here entitled to theirs.

ntlbell

The G Child wrote: »

Apologies for this Jonny, I wasn't trying to say your not an intelligent guy, just that JT sometimes uses his intelligence to bellitle you. As for the Always thinking your right comment, that was just meant as a point to show that more often than not, your opinions can be set in stone, and not for turning, just a couple of examples being your love of Old skool and your contempt for Minimal. These are your opinions and you are entitled to them. As is JTsuited, Ntlbell, Sean Nash and everyone else on here entitled to theirs.

The biggest issue here is intelligence should never come into it and this was my original point in the funky house thread.

I have absolute 0 control over the music I like, regardless of how many degree's i complete or masters ,records I produce or clubs I play in I can't control the music that I enjoy or moves me.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that people from different generations tend to like different types of music.

For a close to home example take your grand parents/parents/your own musical tastes most people think there generation was the best.

I went to my first gig roughly 16 years ago i was 14 to see johnny moy in the tivoli my brain recalls this as one of the best nights of my life when I listen today to some of the tracks played on the night they do sound fresh and to ME they sound better than a lot of what I consider to be CRAP today but it's based on my exprieinces of them tracks based on not just what was going on at the time which will never be replicated today but also the technology that was available to those producers at the time was very limited compared to what a bedroom twat like seansh has available to him

Comparing computer genrated music today to that of yester year from a technical point of view is nothing short of complete idiocy. there was no replication it was producers inventing a totally unique sound and couldn't copy anything that had gone before with very limited technology

I haven't heard any of JT's track but I assume he wouldn't be making them only for the producers that have gone before him but to look down on those same people and critique them with the limited technology they had, and then claim a "career" on the back of what went before him and to look down on people who enjoy what went before him is probably one of the most brain dead thing any moron can do and this gob****e is suppose to be more musically educated than anyone on this forum?

come off it.

seannash

ntlbell wrote: »

the technology that was available to those producers at the time was very limited compared to what a bedroom twat like seansh has available to him

please say this is me your talking about.cant wait to start calling you names on the internet.

seannash

ntlbell wrote: »

I haven't heard any of JT's track but I assume he wouldn't be making them only for the producers that have gone before him but to look down on those same people and critique them with the limited technology they had, and then claim a "career" on the back of what went before him and to look down on people who enjoy what went before him is probably one of the most brain dead thing any moron can do and this gob****e is suppose to be more musically educated than anyone on this forum?

come off it.

just read over that again would you.
apart from it making no sense you state that you have never heard any of jtsuiteds track but you proceed to judge it.
seriously mate give it a rest

seannash

just to make another point.yes the technology was probably more basic that what a "twat" like me has available right now.
so recognising this how can you still claim that the people with a very basic technology set up are creating better tracks than todays producers.
doesnt make any sense especially when you take it at the highest level with the very best producers using the latest technology and past technology to make tracks

Fintomiginto

Just thought I'd post the link to jtsuiteds theory on how somebodys musical taste is directly linked to their intelligence. :rolleyes:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055429918&highlight=funky+house&page=10


Also I like to do a bit of **** stirring.
All in jest.

Scubadevils

Jaysis this thread really has descended into some serious abuse. You can fire crap at each other all day long without any resolution to the debate because there is no right or wrong when it comes to peoples preferences.

tman

Felixdhc wrote: »

You can fire crap at each other all day long without any resolution to the debate because there is no right or wrong when it comes to peoples preferences.

Even if you like basshunter?
Seems pretty ****ing wrong to me!

Four-Percent

jtsuited wrote: »

I'd like to think of it more of an abrasive honesty than anything else,

I agree.I've yet to see JT write someting that wasn't firmly based in reality.

Scubadevils

tman wrote: »

Even if you like basshunter?
Seems pretty ****ing wrong to me!

I love Basshunter! So cram packed with energy and life... bleedin rapid they are. Better than the sh*te you listen to. What sh*te do you listen to? :pac:

tman

Hmmmm... Touche!

It all makes for an interesting read anyway

Scubadevils

Ah yeah, tis a bit of fun

Four-Percent

ntlbell wrote: »

I haven't heard any of JT's track but I assume he wouldn't be making them only for the producers that have gone before him but to look down on those same people and critique them with the limited technology they had, and then claim a "career" on the back of what went before him and to look down on people who enjoy what went before him is probably one of the most brain dead thing any moron can do and this gob****e is suppose to be more musically educated than anyone on this forum?

come off it.

You come off it.

Do you really think that he makes tracks so he can look down on others?You really believe that he doesn't make music because he enjoys it?If someone made music as a career, i doubt they'd get very far without loving their own tracks

Zascar

This thread has made me LOL about 10 times in just the last 2 pages!!!

Seriously thogh everyone had valid points and there is no resolution in sight. I can be an opinionated cnut sometimes around my hatred of certain types of music but I generally tend to keep it to myself cause there's no point in upsetting people over something that you'll never agree on.

I've met JTsuited aka KidHandome and I have to say he is a very very sound bloke - but I do raise eyebrows at some of the things he says, but perhaps maybe it is the tone they are said in...

I don't know why people get so wound up about Jonny, we have quite different taste but we never seem to get on each others throats. but hey this is the internet for you and you simply cannot avoid conflict on message boards. Everyone can be the big man hiding behind a keyboard - if we were all sitting in a bar having this conversation I'm sure it would all be normal light hearted banter and slagging. I love to take the piss out of mates of mine who have crappy taste in music and they slag me for liking techno they just don't understand, but that's the fun in it, if everyone had the same tastes it would just be boring.

ntlbell

seannash wrote: »

just read over that again would you.
apart from it making no sense you state that you have never heard any of jtsuiteds track but you proceed to judge it.
seriously mate give it a rest

where did i judge any of his tracks?